What was 'wrong' with Twilight Princess?

[Deathborn]

That is problem No.1. Problem No.2 is those tentacles that can easily surprise you, and take out about 3 hearts from you when they do.

Morpha is still my favourite boss in OoT, though.

 

Morpha is a piece of cake if you stay in a corner of the room and grapple when it tries to catch you but have not long enough pseudopods.

[Hellfire]

You're not giving modern AI enough credit here. Ten different attack patterns is extremely achievable. Bosses are a little bit out of fashion but if you look at the enemy AI in say CoD 4, HL2 or something similar it's outstanding these days. I still don't think the Wii is a technical limitation as such but nintendo are not exploiting this aspect to it's fullest. As with the games themselves the bosses in modern Zeldas are just easier.

Giving a few more "fixed" routines isn't very advanced AI, and still, devs don't do it with bosses. Why? It's a design choice, it's a way to give players who don't want to "master" a game to kill a boss. Which is why I love mano a mano fights. Of course, that with the damage they give in Zelda, you wouldn't need any sort of mastery :P

Again, there aren't many if any bosses like the ones described, either with many attack patterns or advanced AI.

 

Enemies are a different thing, havent' played a lot of CoD4, HL2 is nothing special AI-wise, FEAR is where it's at. I don't think it's an AI thing at all though, it's about how they design the game, this kind of game doesn't need advanced AI to have challenging fights. I mean, what exactly are they gonna do. Call for reinforcements? Hide behind crates? :P

 

3D Zeldas are easier than 2D ones, but dungeon-wise I found TP more or less the same, maybe a little harder (well, harder than WW for sure), but it's hard to say, I finished TP once and the others several times already, so I can't say with certainty. Not to mention that I was much younger in the older Zeldas.

 

They do need to shake up the bosses, TP had some cool stuff, kinda like SotC with Morpheel and the Dragon and the King Orc Guy (slept two hours, just came from an exam, my memory isnt great right now), because he wasn't confined to a dungeon, but I wanna see more of that. More bosses outside of dugeons, one or two hidden strong bosses (kinda like in the FFs) and stuff like that.

To me, I just felt the world was far too small. Play Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion, wander around on the map and then you'll see what Hyrule Field could really be like. Not just flat land with inexplicable holes everywhere and no real sense of life. There were no people living out in the fields, no horses or carts or buildings. There wasn't even anything you could really describe as a forest, or a stream, or a mountain. I know it's been the way of Zelda forever but it's time for an update.

There's absolutely no comparison, Oblivion might have been huge and has houses and animals whatnot, but it's a completly different game, one thing can't apply to the other. Zelda's world is coherent, the characters have erm.. character, places are recognizable, things are easy to access, etc...

 

Oblivion is basically: make huge map + middleware + generate completly boring characters and dungeons+ spread them= profit. Don't get me wrong, I like Oblivion, I have a gazillion hours in it, but it's completly wrong to compare them, it's like I said many times, people want to turn Zelda into generic epic "AAA" "hardocre" RPG. And I hate that.

 

I do understand where you're coming from, I'd like the world to be more coherent and streamlined, like seeing a "real" forest with lot's of trees and whatever, Oblivion achieves that greatly, but the locations are completly forgettable (a big problem with Western RPGs), I don't games like Zelda to lose their charm for the sake of havin huuuuuge overworlds.

Also, you're exagerating:

A village at the base of a mountain, actually is and looks like a village at the base of a mountain.

A valley! And you can see the Death Mountain from Hyrule Field, not to mention that it's actually vertical, you have to "climb it".

A spring!

Woods!

River!

Waterfall!

Lake!

Desert!

Mountain!

Pi!

 

It isn't a flat place with holes at all. It's a shame all of the wild life outside of Ordon (asides from fishes and cucoos) consists of enemies, I also want to see more animals here and there and some people going around like the mailman for example.

Long post. Meh.

[...]

Well, yeah, Hellfire, good post. There is variety in TP, I know, and I agree with you that I DON'T want to turn Zelda in a generic RPG like the others. Zelda is its own thing and should remain like that, its own magical charm. I think all of us Nintendo fans agree with this. It's just that the structure of the world in TP is a bit failed... Like others have said before, for example, you can only access the desert by being fired from a cannon or by teleporting... Same thing to get out of it. You can only access Lake Hylia by entering that small house at the top and diving or jumping into a river somewhere near the entrance to Zora Domain and you will wash out in the Lake. This makes it seem like "rooms" even if they are open spaces. Why can't we jump from Eldin Bridge into Lake HYlia, for example? Or from any of the canyons that surround it? And how about getting "out" of the Lake? Another canon shot or teleport.

The field in OoT was better designed, in my opinion, because it didn't have this "room" factor. It was more seemless. The only such area that felt like a room was the Desert Colossus, cause coming out of it from where you got in was pretty much 99% impossible and you had to teleport.

 

I'd like more connection between the different areas of an overworld, I don't want to have to teleport to reach somewhere. I want to be able to walk there, or ride there, or climb there. This makes it feel more "alive", more natural and not just a bunch of game rooms designed in the open.

 

A more natural and seemless overworld would not strip Zelda from its charm, it would add to it.

[darksnowman]

Lol, but Hyrule Field does have huge, deep chasms that separate it all up. I never understood why. Does anyone think that maybe it was one of the biggest innovations in OoT that has helped make Zelda easier...? The lock-on. In the 2D games you don't have this luxury.

[Hellfire]

Yes, I agree, the more seamless transitions the better, the fact that it was on GC hardware obviously didn't help, it's still my favourite overworld and I didn't have any problem or feel restrained by anything

Look at Hyrule Field from OoT:

It's basically a hall that leads to the other parts.

Now look at TP:

It looks much more like an actual field, much better designed, it feels like you're travelling. I'm fine with the desert being isolated as well as the Lost Woods, because they're supposed to be unreachable, same with the Sky Palace, the only place that lacks access (no ramps) is unfortunately Lake Hylia.

 

Offtopic: I played a little TP just now to soothe the soul, I was in the spirit cave in Lake Hylia (again, sleepy) and some fairies followed me, like they usually do, I did one of those awesome dives Link does so well, one of them followed me, dropped in the water and it was basically drowning trying to get out while making weird sounds. lol

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Offtopic: I played a little TP just now to soothe the soul

 

LOL ^^ - I love you man. : peace:

[...]

But for example this picture from pre-release gives an impression of a much bigger field than there actually is:

http://www.rpgsite.net/images/screens/30/link-horse.jpg

 

I don't think that area in that pcture exists in the game now. And when I look at that, I imagine being able to reach those mountains in the background. Or those trees in the distance. Now that's epic, that's a worthy Zelda Kingdom! I want that! :awesome:

 

 

 

 

Here's another picture, this one from the actual game:

http://masem.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/zelda-envir.jpg

 

That looks awesome and actually is in the game. But when you know the game and realise that most of it is just background... You know, that's the Eldin bridge and not much else.... Like I said before, you can't jump down into the lake, basically your play area there is just the bridge, and yet it looks massive. It feels like a tease.

[Shorty]

Also, you're exagerating:

Sorry, you must've misunderstood me. I'm talking about Hyrule Field. Just the field. Not the lake, not the desert, not the towns. Every image you posted was from somewhere that was not Hyrule Field. That was also what I meant when I referred to Oblivion. I'm not talking about changing the game to be like Oblivion, I was just using it as an example where a world was created better. Not the 'feel' of the world or the interactivity, just the general design and geography of the map between key locations. It had variety, it was lush and importantly: it was huge.

While I do think that Kakariko should've had more life, there is a reason the people didn't move back in. They were dead.

 

It's been a long time since I've played and I forgot this. Still there's no reason that it couldn't be repaired and repopulated. But hey that's just being picky, really I just didn't feel that the village was anything like a village.

[Jonnas]

Morpha is a piece of cake if you stay in a corner of the room and grapple when it tries to catch you but have not long enough pseudopods.

 

Bah! I have honour!

Instead of relying in cheap tactics to defeat my opponent, I shall humilliate him by skillfully dodging his attacks and kicking his arse, in an even playing field!

 

But seriously, I'd rather not use such cheap tactics, if I can. They take fun away from a battle.

[Hellfire]

LOL ^^ - I love you man. : peace:

Love you too <3

 

But for example this picture from pre-release gives an impression of a much bigger field than there actually is:

http://www.rpgsite.net/images/screens/30/link-horse.jpg

 

I don't think that area in that pcture exists in the game now. And when I look at that, I imagine being able to reach those mountains in the background. Or those trees in the distance. Now that's epic, that's a worthy Zelda Kingdom! I want that! :awesome:

 

 

 

 

Here's another picture, this one from the actual game:

http://masem.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/zelda-envir.jpg

 

That looks awesome and actually is in the game. But when you know the game and realise that most of it is just background... You know, that's the Eldin bridge and not much else.... Like I said before, you can't jump down into the lake, basically your play area there is just the bridge, and yet it looks massive. It feels like a tease.

Well I wish I had a million dollars and I don't, again, let's not enter the slippery slope of wishlists, unicorns and rainbows.

 

You're in the overworld, from different parts you see: Gerudo Desert, Lake Hylia, Hyrule Castle, Snowpeak, Eldin Bridge, Twilight Portal, SKy Palace, Ordon, Kakariko and Death Mountain. You can go to all of these. OK, so you're in the bridge and you can't jump, a pity, but you can still go there, you just need to take another route. I understand what you're saying, but with a game that has a huge overworld (compared to games of this type, not Oblivions and whatnot, read below :P), bigger than in any other Zelda, with more places to go, lots of great things done, yet people focus on the game they made in their mind because of the hype instead of enjoying what's there, giving place to nitpicking. Which of course is what this thread is about, but this spreads out to every Zelda thread.

Sorry, you must've misunderstood me. I'm talking about Hyrule Field. Just the field. Not the lake, not the desert, not the towns. Every image you posted was from somewhere that was not Hyrule Field. That was also what I meant when I referred to Oblivion. I'm not talking about changing the game to be like Oblivion, I was just using it as an example where a world was created better. Not the 'feel' of the world or the interactivity, just the general design and geography of the map between key locations. It had variety, it was lush and importantly: it was huge.

 

It's been a long time since I've played and I forgot this. Still there's no reason that it couldn't be repaired and repopulated. But hey that's just being picky, really I just didn't feel that the village was anything like a village.

 

Oblivion is randomly generated, it might have some beautiful sights, but they're basically the same everywhere, it's boring and yes, it does feel more like a real field with all the trees and the lakes, but the nature of the game allows that. To me, after a few hours it's just a boring world, just like most (all?) randomly generated worlds are. And there we go again, it's huge in Oblivion, that doesn't mean TPs world is small, far from it, it's very big. You're comparing things that can't be compared. Everything is connected you can't say you don't want to change the feel, interactivity and cohesion of a game's world but make it 20x bigger.

That's why Oblivion is filled with incredibly dull and cloned caves and dungeons, tedious sidequests, no characters that stand out, etc... This applies to a lot if not all Western RPGs (NWN, Baldurs Gate), in order to make something huge or to pay attention to certain things, others have to be sacrificed. And that's OK, each game is set out to do this or that, they just need to do it.

 

So, you wish for certain things to exist, they do and ignore them, because when you go the map it doesn't say "Hyrule Field"?. Things are there, you can see them from the overworld and you can get there, I don't see the problem. You have the Hyrule field, it has valleys, passes, passageways, caves, the terrain isn't flat, it has bridges and you travel to a place that has a forest/desert/wtvr. The geography makes sense, it's well thought out and it's coherent.

 

I understand what you're saying about walking in Oblivion and see lots of trees and whatnot, but again, different priorities in different games and no need exagerate.

 

If you expect Elder Scrolls-like worlds in Zelda and games of the sort, you might as well give up.

 

Also, Kakariko was destroyed by the Twili's attack, from which you saved them. Now, I don't know how long the game is supposed to take (Hyrule Standard Time), but rebuilding and populating a village takes some time, I don't think you can do it in like, 2 weeks.

 

Bah! I have honour!

Instead of relying in cheap tactics to defeat my opponent, I shall humilliate him by skillfully dodging his attacks and kicking his arse, in an even playing field!

 

But seriously, I'd rather not use such cheap tactics, if I can. They take fun away from a battle.

 

Indeed. It's like a form of cheating and it defeats the purpose of actually playing the game. It's kind of like people that play in Achievment servers in TF2.

[DazzeL]

Love you too <3

dull and cloned caves and dungeons, tedious sidequests, no characters that stand out, etc... This applies to a lot if not all Western RPGs (NWN, Baldurs Gate)

 

I'm sorry, but if you think that none of the characters stand out in Baldurs Gate or even NWN then you don't know what decent character development is. Now I LOVE Zelda. I appreciate the particular nintendo, and to some extent Japanese, charm that it has. However, to say that the characters in Baldurs Gate were dull is an impossible claim.

 

They may not be to your particular tastes and that's absolutely fine. But they're beautifully written, much better than anything in any Zelda game, and extremely memorable. Anyone whos played Baldurs Gate surely couldn't have forgotten the slightly insane Minsc? Or the relationship between the player and Imoen. And even the relationship between Khalid and Jaheria to which you are only a spectator.

 

Zelda does a lot of things better than any other games. The combat, whilst basic, feels fun. The worlds are charming if basic. The plots are usually engaging and in TP's case also rather epic though less so than more "hollywood" games such as Oblivion. What Zelda does not do better than most RPGs is deep characters and complex relationships between NPCs. It doesn't try to because it would not play well with the younger audience which forms a part of Zelda's targetted demographic.

[Shorty]

Oh for crying out loud Hellfire, if you would just take off your fanboy goggles for five minutes you would see that I, like many people here, love Zelda. We just think the latest title was somewhat flawed, and would personally love to see various aspects improved. Would you stop arguing half your life away in such a ridiculously overly ostensive manner? You can't surely believe this game was perfect so much that you're really this desperate to defend it. Do you have your head that far up Nintendo that you really can't admit that it could do with taking one or two pointers from some more ambitious games?

 

I'm not talking about plucking the gigantic map out of Oblivion and slotting it inside Zelda, along with every randomly generated generic cave mission that dragged its feet behind, all I'm saying is that Oblivion brilliantly displays the potential that is out there to create awesome looking and varied scenery and interestingly shaped paths. Whilst it appears to me that the Hyrule Field of TP is simply four of the one from OoT, strung together and seperated by inexplicable gorges and narrow pathways with conveniently placed borders of rock.

 

I'm not hating on Zelda. I'm not saying it 'looked poor' or 'failed' in any way. I'm just saying that, were I to stand in a room with the designers and want to show them something they could do, I would give them some screenshots like this:

 

 

[...]

It's not about "the game I made in my mind", it's really about what's there and could be better, compared to past and present experiences.

 

Anyway, one other thing they could use in Zelda that they don't yet, is background loading, like in Metroid and I believe Oblivion uses this too. In stead of dividing the world areas like separate rooms, which is what they are in Zelda, why don't they make the areas all connected and make them load in the background. Metroid is a succession of small/medium sized rooms but it doesn't feel like it, because of the background loading through the doors. Only the elevator scenes break the continuity in the MP games, whilst in a Zelda continuity and fluidity is broken every 2 or 3 minutes.

 

You might call this nitpicking, but it's all things that can be made better. And it's nitpicking that helps make better games (or movies or whatever). Attention to small details in stead of just the big picture. And Miyamoto is known for his extreme nitpicking at these small issues. After all he was the one that didn't want CDs for the N64 because of the loading times, which he thought brought the player away from the game. And he was/is right. Those black screens between different Zelda areas have the same effect, they break the continuity of the game.

 

This is not about being able or not to jump from a bridge, it's about the "room factor" and other things.

 

You like the game, fine, I like it too. But there are things that I think could be better. Another of them, apart from what we're talking, is the dungeons music, for example. Very subpar in this game.

[Hellfire]

Shorty, take it as you want, I'm tired of this, a guy can't say what he thinkgs about his favourite game, he's automatically a fanboy. Hey guess what, I bought Oblivion special edition at launch. I also have a 360 and a PS2. Maybe I just bought them to burn them. Everything I said, which apparently is being desperate and wasting half my life (I don't know what you do with your life if you think someone gets desperate talking about games), is my opinion and countering your points, because it's what I think. I also conceded some of your points, saying I agreed with some things and not with others. Nope, doesn't matter. Fanboy goggles. I ALWAYS have "elaborate" discussions about the games I like with everyone, if you don't know that, well, not my problem. If you can't tolerate someone disagreeing with you without acting like that, again, not my problem.

Now, I could keep discussing with everyone back and forth, so that everyone knows each others opinions, I could discuss the possibility of background loading like ... said, or say to Dazzel that I just don't find the majority of the BG or NWN memorable among, exactly because there are a lot of people and while there are those who stand out, they end up getting a little drowned with the sea of characters. I could even say I was giving an example that I plucked of my mind and considering I haven't played the game in ages, it might not be the correct example?

But you know what? What's the point. Fanboy goggles. Oh and getting desperate and wasting half my life that too.

Don't worry, I'll change my posts.

[Shorty]

Ehh, calm down Hellfire I just think it wouldn't hurt you to, every now and then use some phrases like "good point" or "that's true, but...". You never back down on a point, and in many ways it is admirable, but when you never concede a little it can become frustrating in a discussion, especially one titled "What was 'wrong' with Twilight Princess". Constant refusal to consider the concept that maybe there are just one or two imperfections in this title lead me to lash out with that phrase (although I don't take it back, I also think you could've taken it for what it was, a hyperbole and a joke).

 

Ok, ok, I will be the one to back down. Feel free to love your favourite game for every aspect, far be it for me to try and change your mind. And please don't edit your posts, that goes against the entire purpose of a message board

 

*on with the discussion at hand*

[Hellfire]

This is me not conceding points and saying TP is perfect and it can't be done better:

Yeah TP did miss those sidequests with a more personal feeling no doubt about it, I agree with you there, Windfall island was awesome.

(...)

Also, pre-emptive strike, for the love of hypnotoad, we're all discussing this like civilized people and stating reasons and facts, so please try not to start attacking me, because I'm always "defending" TP, because it happens every damn time mmkay?

I would have liked to control the shield like in the previous ones too

I want more wild life, I want to feel I'm really climbing a mountain or going into a hidden forest (like Lost Woods in TP), I want to fight adverse weather conditions, and I want them to break the current definition of dungeon even more.

They do need to shake up the bosses, TP had some cool stuff, kinda like SotC with Morpheel and the Dragon and the King Orc Guy (slept two hours, just came from an exam, my memory isnt great right now), because he wasn't confined to a dungeon, but I wanna see more of that. More bosses outside of dugeons, one or two hidden strong bosses (kinda like in the FFs) and stuff like that.

I do understand where you're coming from, I'd like the world to be more coherent and streamlined, like seeing a "real" forest with lot's of trees and whatever

It's a shame all of the wild life outside of Ordon (asides from fishes and cucoos) consists of enemies, I also want to see more animals here and there and some people going around like the mailman for example.

Yes, I agree, the more seamless transitions the better, the fact that it was on GC hardware obviously didn't help, it's still my favourite overworld and I didn't have any problem or feel restrained by anything

the only place that lacks access (no ramps) is unfortunately Lake Hylia.

I understand what you're saying, but with a game that has a huge overworld (compared to games of this type, not Oblivions and whatnot, read below :P), bigger than in any other Zelda, ...

I understand what you're saying about walking in Oblivion and see lots of trees and whatnot, but again, different priorities in different games and no need exagerate.

And more importantly:

giving place to nitpicking. Which of course is what this thread is about, but this spreads out to every Zelda thread.

 

 

Don't worry I won't edit my past posts, my future posts are what might be subject to change.

 

Now indeed carry on if I see something I don't agree with I'll just stay silent, this discussion doesn't merit further er... discussion.

[DazzeL]

As far as I'm concerned Hellfire, say what you like. Nothing offends me but at the same time if you post something I completely disagree with I am likely to challenge it. No big deal, that's what forums are for.

 

As you were.

[Jonnas]

Many discussions Hellfire participates in usually follow this stigma:

 

User: "I think this and this"

Hellfire: "Well, I disagree, because *long post*"

User: "Pshht, whatta fanboy"

 

Is it because Hellfire is unusually blunt? Or because he's as persistent as a Jeovah's witness?

[Hellfire]

Many discussions Hellfire participates in usually follow this stigma:

 

User: "I think this and this"

Hellfire: "Well, I disagree, because *long post*"

User: "Pshht, whatta fanboy"

 

Is it because Hellfire is unusually blunt? Or because he's as persistent as a Jeovah's witness?

 

I would say both. Fused with my fanboy tag, it's a powerful mix. But hey, you know what, I look at these previous discussions, and interesting things were debated, so I did my job. I'll try to stand by and watch from now on though.

 

As far as I'm concerned Hellfire, say what you like. Nothing offends me but at the same time if you post something I completely disagree with I am likely to challenge it. No big deal, that's what forums are for.

 

Indeed, what would be the point of this if one spoke his mind and others just stayed silent? People seem to like it though.

[Blue_Ninja0]

Many discussions Hellfire participates in usually follow this stigma:

 

User: "I think this and this"

Hellfire: "Well, I disagree, because *long post*"

User: "Pshht, whatta fanboy"

 

Is it because Hellfire is unusually blunt? Or because he's as persistent as a Jeovah's witness?

 

It's because he's always right, so it can be annoying.

Speaking of which, wasn't it in an exact similar situation as this, with all the drama and such, that the mafia was born?

 

Here's another picture, this one from the actual game:

http://masem.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/zelda-envir.jpg

 

That looks awesome and actually is in the game. But when you know the game and realise that most of it is just background... You know, that's the Eldin bridge and not much else.... Like I said before, you can't jump down into the lake, basically your play area there is just the bridge, and yet it looks massive. It feels like a tease.

 

That's The Great Bridge of Hylia, not the Bridge of Eldin.: peace:

Hey, I can nitpick too!

[Shino]

Just to add that Oblivion is the definition of a pretty nothing.

[Hellfire]

It's because he's always right, so it can be annoying.

Speaking of which, wasn't it in an exact similar situation as this, with all the drama and such, that the mafia was born?

 

This isn't about being right, it's about PoV, but thank you

Yeah it was something like this, someone said "here comes the portugese mafia" refering to me and pedroca and it began. lol

Anyway, enough, Zelda talk go.

[...]

That's The Great Bridge of Hylia, not the Bridge of Eldin.: peace:

Hey, I can nitpick too!

 

Nah, no nitpicking there, I appreciate the correction. It's been a year since I played the game. Which one is the Eldin bridge then, that one made of rock without side walls on the West part of the field? The one that gets its middle section teleported to the desert?

[Blue_Ninja0]

Yeah it was something like this, someone said "here comes the portugese mafia" refering to me and pedroca and it began. lol

 

And you were talking about Twilight Princess if I'm not mistaken.

 

Nah, no nitpicking there, I appreciate the correction. It's been a year since I played the game. Which one is the Eldin bridge then, that one made of rock without side walls on the West part of the field? The one that gets its middle section teleported to the desert?

 

Exactly! It's also a playable level in Smash Brawl.

What can I say? I love bridges. Specially epic medieval ones.

[Jamba]

Just to put my 2 cents in: I liked this game but didn't love it. Every little piece of genius in it (of which there were quite a few) was quickly counteracted by either dull, diluted areas or very boring and obvious game design.

 

Due to a lack of stimulation I charged through the game and I don't think at any point really did I feel like the game was tempting me to stray off and investigate.

 

It was nice to have some new weapons but honestly I'm getting fucking bored of the regulars. It's no fun getting a weapon that ups your arsenal by pretty much fuck all. It's like getting a crap add-on in Metroid and expecting something cool but to find that it was kind of meeeeeeh instead.

 

Liked the story, liked Midna a lot. Wish they had spent more time developing Zant and Ganon though. They were just kind of there, no real feeling of Nemesis. But wait, they did do that for King Bokoblin (is that it?) so what the hell Nintendo?