Battlestar Galactica Season 4

[Ashley]

 

You're concerned that the cycle is repeating itself ("all of this has happened before and it will happen again"?) but isn't that the point of BSG? Try as you might we're all a slave to destiny/bound to follow in our forefather's fuckups. We're destined for self-imposed doom.

 

What plan is Ellen aware of? She knows of the Cylons and their history and how it has repeated, and will likely repeat, but I never recall her trying to prevent it. As I saw it she tried to survive/be with Saul. I think she knows trying to prevent it is fruitless, so she is just striving to survive.

 

And if it was caused by God the initial cycle could be a whole Noah's Ark thing, or an Abraham thing (not trying to suggest their God is the Christian God, just useful comparissons).

 

That may all be crap/filled with illogical holes, but its crap that killed a few minutes.

 

[Daft]

 

You're concerned that the cycle is repeating itself ("all of this has happened before and it will happen again"?) but isn't that the point of BSG? Try as you might we're all a slave to destiny/bound to follow in our forefather's fuckups. We're destined for self-imposed doom.

 

What plan is Ellen aware of? She knows of the Cylons and their history and how it has repeated, and will likely repeat, but I never recall her trying to prevent it. As I saw it she tried to survive/be with Saul. I think she knows trying to prevent it is fruitless, so she is just striving to survive.

 

And if it was caused by God the initial cycle could be a whole Noah's Ark thing, or an Abraham thing (not trying to suggest their God is the Christian God, just useful comparissons).

 

That may all be crap/filled with illogical holes, but its crap that killed a few minutes.

 

You're concerned that the cycle is repeating itself ("all of this has happened before and it will happen again"?) but isn't that the point of BSG? Try as you might we're all a slave to destiny/bound to follow in our forefather's fuckups. We're destined for self-imposed doom.

 

That's my whole bloody point!!

 

Six's, "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur." absolutely, categorically, 100% undermines that idea.

 

What plan is Ellen aware of? She knows of the Cylons and their history and how it has repeated, and will likely repeat, but I never recall her trying to prevent it. As I saw it she tried to survive/be with Saul. I think she knows trying to prevent it is fruitless, so she is just striving to survive.

 

I didn't say anything about Ellen other than the fact Baltar knew she was a Cylon from when he did the test. That's weird.

 

And if it was caused by God the initial cycle could be a whole Noah's Ark thing, or an Abraham thing (not trying to suggest their God is the Christian God, just useful comparissons).

 

In what way would it relate to the Ark? God starting a flood that he lost control of and wiped out three civilisations?

 

The one interesting interpretation is that the only thing that breaks God's control over humanity is that they create the cylons. They, in effect, become Gods. The one thing that brings both human and cylons under God's control, back to his plan (because if things were going to God's plan we wouldn't need HeadSix and HeadBaltar appearing, and thus they don't appear after the settlement on Earth), is their merging. Therefore giving that excellent message that faith is control and freedom from faith is freedom to exist.

 

But this has nothing to do with my problem with what HeadSix says.

 

I don't even see a comparison to Abraham.

[Ashley]

 

 

That's my whole bloody point!!

 

Six's, "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur." absolutely, categorically, 100% undermines that idea.

 

 

 

I didn't say anything about Ellen other than the fact Baltar knew she was a Cylon from when he did the test. That's weird.

 

 

 

In what way would it relate to the Ark? God starting a flood that he lost control of and wiped out three civilisations?

 

The one interesting interpretation is that the only thing that breaks God's control over humanity is that they create the cylons. They, in effect, become Gods. The one thing that brings both human and cylons under God's control, back to his plan (because if things were going to God's plan we wouldn't need HeadSix and HeadBaltar appearing, and thus they don't appear after the settlement on Earth), is their merging. Therefore giving that excellent message that faith is control and freedom from faith is freedom to exist.

 

But this has nothing to do with my problem with what HeadSix says.

 

I don't even see a comparison to Abraham.

 

I'd forgotten that line. So was the cycle broken? Because it seemed peaceful and then that rather sickly montage of robots at the end suggested it might be happening. Which is granted, a contradiction within minutes (if not seconds) of its own dialogue.

 

Yeah okay me getting muddled. Still, I stand by Baltar thinking his machine is a load of crap or not having any reason to 'out' Ellen as a cylon as it served him no purpose. I'd forgotten it happened if I'm honest.

 

And the God references were more the overarching method, the wrathful Old Testament God who is willing to kill people to save them unlike the fluffy God of the New Testament. Abraham/Ark were just the first two examples of a more morally grey God that I could think of.

 

 

I think the problem with any series that has some many intricate balls in the air is one's going to fall where it isn't supposed to. I was pleased with the overall conclusions personally. I've seen worse finales.

[jayseven]

So this all hinges on one line?

 

"Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur."

 

Who says that the complex system has repeated itself for long enough yet? All the line and the subsequent montage proves is that us mortals do not know when something surprising might occur. If we did, we really would be the God(s).

 

Or am I missing the point?

[Daft]

Yeah, basically one line but since it is the last piece of dialogue in the entire series, it's pretty important. Especially considering who it comes from and just how jarring it is.

 

My problem is that she even says it at all. Why would someone who is aware of God then contextualise the situation with reference to probability and chance?

 

Not to mention that the line doesn't really make sense. "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur." Say this iteration of humanity is a surprise, leave that system long enough and 'something surprising might occur' like we blow ourselves up or we create robots that destroy us.

 

I just don't get the logic.

 

 

I'd forgotten that line. So was the cycle broken? Because it seemed peaceful and then that rather sickly montage of robots at the end suggested it might be happening. Which is granted, a contradiction within minutes (if not seconds) of its own dialogue.

 

It's not really a contradiction since nothing is explicit. It's more a question.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Daft

[Ashley]

Yeah, basically one line but since it is the last piece of dialogue in the entire series, it's pretty important. Especially considering who it comes from and just how jarring it is.

 

My problem is that she even says it at all. Why would someone who is aware of God then contextualise the situation with reference to probability and chance?

 

Not to mention that the line doesn't really make sense. "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur." Say this iteration of humanity is a surprise, leave that system long enough and 'something surprising might occur' like we blow ourselves up or we create robots that destroy us.

 

I just don't get the logic.

 

I've always presumed HeadSix is merely a messenger of God, rather than knowing the full story. And the line could simply be personal conjecture rather than religious 'fact'

 

[Daft]

I've always presumed HeadSix is merely a messenger of God, rather than knowing the full story. And the line could simply be personal conjecture rather than religious 'fact'

 

But that line doesn't make sense.

 

Not to mention that the line doesn't really make sense. "Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur." Say this iteration of humanity is a surprise, leave that system long enough and 'something surprising might occur' like we blow ourselves up or we create robots that destroy us.

 

She's basically saying given enough time, anything can and will happen; The whole 'even parallel lines, reaching into infinity, meet somewhere'. Yet there is some kind of 'plan'. These statements surely can't work together.

[Ashley]

Maybe the plan is to talk bull and hope for the best? (for God/HeadSix/Moore)

 

Who knows, maybe 'The Plan' due out in a few months will retcon this into a nice happier place?

 

[Daft]

Good luck to them getting out of that paradox.

[jayseven]

There's no way a show can wrap everything up with a single line, yet I guess the beef you have is that they even bother. There's always that pressure to leave a film/book/tv show with some sort of sentiment that the whole show can be nostalgically pored over with. Very few endings truly succeed at doing this, and most plump for the cliffhanger/life goes on approach (sarah Connor Chronicles/The Wire).

 

I don't have a problem with it because it's not just a paradox, it's anbiguous to a tee.

 

 

"Let a complex system repeat itself long enough eventually something surprising might occur."

 

We can take the 'complex system' to mean the universe, mankind, evolution, computers, toasters... We can look at the agency in "let a..", that suggests that the being, the 'mover', sets something in motion, that the thing in motion (the universe, mankind, evolution...) all had some sort of plan initially; a creator. The 'surprising' occurance, in this context, is a surprise to this creator, to the mover. When you've had your toaster on teh same setting for 5 years with no problem then one day the bread comes up black? External forces aside, it's a surprise to us more than the toaster.

 

And there's 'might' as well. The sweeping statement does not necessarily apply to one thing or another -- of course it being the last episode of the series we are surely right to assume that the statement applies to life, to the universe... But as I say, we don't know if the surprise has happened yet. It looks set to repeat itself again...

 

And if Head Six is some emissary or emblem of God, then the main suggestion seems to be that the creater is hoping for something surprising to happen eventually. Because we see Head Six and Head Baltar before the end it suggests that the surprise hasn't happened yet -- that the complex system has not yet broken away from the predictability of its settings; that, essentially, God is still watching, waiting for the unpredictable.

 

That's how I take it. God's plan is for mankind (which seems to be the only species in the BSG universe) to eventually truly be able to exist without Him. Like a father's plan to raise a child is for them to be able to stand on their own two feet. Except more blood and bombs.

 

But the cycle keeps repeating itself. God ensures that mankind is NEVER fully wiped out, (albeit through amalgamation with machines... all created life is his, in the important sense), ensures that the cylons and the humans are guided together and 'back' to earth. Ensures that they survive again.

 

All of the above is about the BSG universe, where god definitely exists, and no reflection on this one :P

 

My biggest qualm, I suppose, is that there were MOAR hoomans (of a sort) already on OUR earth before they all decided to turn up and have Hera save the race. But I guess that could fall under a Father not forsaking any of his children, or some bullshit.

[Daft]

My big problem is that she's applying the inevitability of chance within the concept of infinity to a reality where God exists. It just jars.

 

As an episode I really enjoyed it. I just wanted to hear other people's conclusions were.

 

Personally I thought the series hinted at God not being an absolute even if he might be a certainty. When they're on Kolbol Six talks about how when you die there you die for good, and that God left that place. Within this context what Head Six says actually has a lot more credence to it. But because that idea is never really explored that line kind of just stings a bit.

[jayseven]

inevitability of chance and infitity compute. No hassle there. We're not talking about parallel lines eventually meeting, we're talking about a complex system.

 

We're not talking about a God that is just absolute, but also a god that has given free will to his complex system that he has created, and as I say, he has done this in order to see the system surprise him - to come up with something that he did not expect, I suppose.

 

The idea that mankind is in charge of its own fate, and yet it always seems to gravitate towards the same self-destructive one, is what God cannot control. I don't think the idea of an absolute god is ever really something that can be explained or comprehended by one who is not an absolute god; if he can see/hear/predict/know/do anything and everything, then why create the universe? What could creating a universe possibly do for a God?

 

(Let's stay away from a couple of theories; I don't want to drag this into an Dei-existential drama, nor lead it down and paradoxic alleyways where a parallel universe splinters open and devours our eyelashes whole, or whatever)

 

In terms of story, in terms of biblical father-figure type stuff, what I see to be the favoured idea for BSG is simply that God is love, and love simply means he wants the best for what he has created. That he created it is secondary to what he wishes for his creation to aspire to; he wants his creation to be able to exist without a need for him to be there (wooa-oh! Heaven on earth! Eternal Peace! woo! etc)... and he really can't have a hand in our 'destiny' (word chosen for massive irony, that I can't be arsed to go into). Yet when we fuck things up he has to steer us back to the beginning. He is the reason the complex system is repeated. What we see in BSG is a return to the beginning, it is rewind. It is what happens after humanity has reached its peak, it is what happens when the system has failed to surprise God.

 

Eternity exists so that God can keep trying, with the only certainty that the system will actually ever surprise him being the fact that infinity... is eternal. Lol. It doesn't matter how many cycles, how many lives are lost, because once Mankind succeeds tehn tehy will still have infinity have their idyll.

 

I can agree that what I'm saying jars with the idea of God being absolute. But then we both agree that the show isn't saying that God is absolute, so in a round-about way, what I'm saying doesn't jar with what you're saying at all :P

[Daft]

Awesome. Great post!

 

There isn't any more I think I'd add to that. I'm definitely going to go watch it again when I have the time.

 

I did really enjoy the episode even though I might sound annoyed. T'was a great series. I look forward to seeing what Caprica has to offer.

[jayseven]

Yeah, BSG is one of very few shows where I can't remember a single episode being dissapointing. The webisodes (or whatever the fuck they were called) did bore me, and just looked like they were filmed on lunch-breaks during the actual show.

 

I still haven't finished the Caprica pilot (it is hench long!) but, as Ashley pointed out... I do have a bunch of months to get through it. And go back through all of BSG at some point too!

 

BSG managed to evade the problem that Lost has constantly; people complain that Lost doesn't know what it is doing, that it is making it up as it goes -- while it is true for both shows that the fine print for the direction of the series is up for debate as the show is made, BSG managed to convince the audience that there is a plan. Do you like Lost? I know a fair few people who have given up/overlooked it and are waiting for the finalé (2010 or 2011, i think?) before they commit to it. To me that's like reading the last page of a novel first!

 

But anyway, that's a different post, for a different thread! I heart tv

[Daft]

I used to watch Lost then a combination of season 3 being just a bit too all over the place, watching it sporadically, missing a few episodes here and there and just not remembering quite a lot I stopped.

 

I think maybe the problem with Lost is that it's a couple seasons too long but then I've only seen up to, and including, season 3 so I don't know.

 

I'm not too sure if I'll really get around to watching it, maybe if I can get a hold of it. I've heard that it's coming good.

[jayseven]

I think a lot of people got hooked on the show being called 'lost' and figured the whole thing was about them getting off the island. Really they should've given the show some absolutely absurd, made-up word, and while the season enders are pretty much always flabbergasting the next season (especially in 2,3,4.. er... but not 5 as much :P) took too long to give the viewer a pay-off for the cliff-hanger.

 

I think because I pretty much shape my life around TV that comes out each week, it's actually easier to watch the show weekly than it is to wait 'til it's done.

 

And without BSG it's been real hard to get that fix.

 

I'm having trouble keeping posts short! Er, yeah; I would say if you lost interest then you might be better waiting 'til s05 is on DVD and then you have two and a half seasons to catch up on while they make/show what might be the last season. I really struggle to see how anyone can argue that the show is anything but in the top 5% of TV on at the moment.

[Ashley]

I still haven't finished the Caprica pilot (it is hench long!)

 

Excuse me? Mr 'lets watch a show season in a day' is complaining a double episdoe is too long?

[jayseven]

haha :P well new shows were shorter/more appealing at 6am... And even finishing a season is higher up on the agenda.

[Dan_Dare]

re: Lost

 

turns out they generally do have a proper plan in place. Season 2 and 3 were, I think, largely out of the hands of the people who knew what that plan was and suffered for it. On current form, however, it's probably the best show on TV since BSG stopped.

[Ashley]

Complete series (DVD & Blu-Ray) officially announced with special features and box pictures galore: http://tvshowsondvd.com/n/11751

[Mr_Odwin]

Pick yourself up a bargain from a seller you can trust!

 

/advert

[Ashley]

Given up, or getting the complete collection?

[Mr_Odwin]

Watched it all (including the rest of Season 4) and I'll not watch it again (amazing show, but I don't rewatch things - bores me) so off it goes. I don't like hoarding things just for the sake of it, and that's all it would be.

[dan-likes-trees]

AAAHHHH Madness, I finally have finished the program :( Watched the last 3 episodes, pancakes lots of coffee and pringles to keep me going, it's been good :P

Anyway everyone seems to have covered it over the past few pages but yea, I really enjoyed the finale! The assault on the cylony place was extremely well done, and the operahouse was concluded brilliantly. I loved Sam all hooked up to the battlestar as well

 

The earth 2.0 thing made a heck of a lot of sense, I had thought before that it would be a good ending. Reminded me a bit too much of one of the books in the Hitchikers Guide series though :P

 

Initially I didn't like the look of the epiloguey bit but like someone else said it ended up making me shed a few tears, particularly when Adama and Roslin flew off, departing from Lee and Starbuck. Starbucks sudden disappearance was pretty as well. And the very ending... I fraking love All Along the Watchtower, me, and t'was nice to see the Hendrix as well as the excellent Bear version. Top music thoroughout the series from him.

Kinda found it odd that the final 'message' of the show was a warning against Artificial Intelligence... bit simple and even silly for such a complex show, though I guess that was the point at it;s most basic level.

 

In regards to the Lost thing, I think the difference between the programs was, like someone said, BSG always had an ending point that we knew would be reached - each episode starts talking about the cylon's 'plan' and mankinds search 'for a home' so in that respect it always seemed as if the writers knew where they were going, as did the audience. Lost lost that when they got off the island but the show still went on, it's no longer clear what the aim of the show is. Im still watching nonethless, not gonna stop after 100 episodes!

 

Baltar knowing about Ellen - Like everyone else I think this was because he didn't feel the need to tell anyone / was too scared too. And when he was asking D'anna about the final 5 he only was doing so to make sure it wasn't him: he didn't really care who the 5 were, and as usual was only worried about himself.

 

 

But raarrr what a mighty program, stunning, only two duff episodes that spring to mind (Scar and the one with Adama's aniversary wife thing) can't quite believe it's over I'll probably spend a few hours yet trawling the web for finale related things before I go to bed :P

 

10 / 10 best show evaarrr

Nothing but the rain

[Mokong]

*MASSIVE BUMPAGE*

 

Ok I know, sorry for the giant kick of a bump but I felt for a show of this callibur I was compelled to seek out this thread.

 

Also because I wanted to ask a question and wanted to make sure I got the attention of BSG fans who might have missed it if I posted in the "TV show" thread.

 

I'm currently re-watching the show on a lovely Blu Ray complete collection. And I got my wife watching also and this is her first time watching (and is well and truley converted, haha). We just started on Season 3 and I'm trying to figure out if maybe we could watch the film Razor before the end of season 3? Or do you think it would be best to just wait to watch it when season 3 ends?

 

I can't fully remember what happens in Razor in relation to the show and what might be spoiled. I know it takes place before the Pegasus is destroyed which we just watched happen in Exudos part 2.... which I actually forgot it happened in that ep and thought it was later into season 3.

 

So I don't think much of what happens in season 3 would get spoiled but wanted to make sure I'm right or if someone might correct me. Cheers

 

 

Also speaking of Exudos we just watched both parts and I somehow forgot just how awesome that episode was. Bloody loved it, even though I knew what would happen (aside from forgetting about Pegasus) it was still amazing (as has been the whole show on re-viewing so far) and still tons of emotion at the end. The wife herself even got a little teary eyed at the end and I started chanting "Adama, Adama, Adama" myself along with the characters, haha.

 

Oh and watching the start of season 3 and seeing Tigh, Tyrol and Anders leading and organising the resistance on 2nd viewing and couldn't help but laugh a little. Seeing Tigh poison Ellen is still a emotional moment too as it was first time.