Formula 1 2008

[gaggle64]

That was simply excellent. Vettel has confirmed what everyone suspected, another new star rising over the sport. Hamilton was unlucky to get caught out by the forecast, was on quite spectacular form for most of the race. Some of the best racing I've seen in years.

[Retro_Link]

hamilton was out of order on his moves on glock and webber i like hamilton but i hope he gets penelized for that to make him think again next time.

Hamilton has already proved himself to be an arrogant prick and I don't see that changing anytime soon!

 

Kovaleinen was poor today.

 

Congrats to Vettel, great drive!!

I think he'll take over one of the Ferrari seats in 2011, as he'll be 24 by then, have more experience and be a more complete racer.

 

Ferrari just didn't seem to have it today in terms of strategy.

Proven by the fact that Massa actually finished a place lower than where he started!

At least Kimi made up 5 places and was absolutely on fire in terms of pace throughout the final stint.

Massa however, threw away a huge chance!

[Noodleman]

Delighted for Vettel pretty boring race in all though.

[gaggle64]

Delighted for Vettel pretty boring race in all though.

 

... run that by me again?

[DCK]

Awesome race! Incredible how Vettel managed to outpace Kovalainen even on a half dry track. Lots of action in other places, too. Monza is just a fantastic track.

 

Shame Alonso seems only capable of collecting fourth places. I guess he will stay at Renault now they are matching Toyota at fourth place in the Constructor's though. Williams and Renault should make some strong comebacks next year.

[Jon]

Hamilton has already proved himself to be an arrogant prick and I don't see that changing anytime soon!

 

Kovaleinen was poor today.

 

Congrats to Vettel, great drive!!

I think he'll take over one of the Ferrari seats in 2011, as he'll be 24 by then, have more experience and be a more complete racer.

 

Ferrari just didn't seem to have it today in terms of strategy.

Proven by the fact that Massa actually finished a place lower than where he started!

At least Kimi made up 5 places and was absolutely on fire in terms of pace throughout the final stint.

Massa however, threw away a huge chance!

 

Kimi is always on fire when it becomes too late. He's never there when the pressure is on however.

[Emerald Emblem]

congrats to vettel

 

youngest winner ever

 

hamilton was out of order on his moves on glock and webber i like hamilton but i hope he gets penelized for that to make him think again next time.

The Glock move I don't think as much, there was a lot of spray that you couldn't see through and those tiny mirrors don't help much either, the Webber move when the track dried out probably should see a 5 place penalty.

[Retro_Link]

Kimi is always on fire when it becomes too late. He's never there when the pressure is on however.

That's because the F2008 is a piece of crap!

[Emerald Emblem]

You say that when Massa finds it very drivable most of the time. Raikonen just can't convert to what Massa can achieve.

[Retro_Link]

You say that when Massa finds it very drivable most of the time.

Like at Silverstone, Spa and today you mean!

 

Massa finds that car no easier to drive than Raikkonen, Hungary was another example where they both struggled on the tyres.

The only advantage he has, is that his driving style allows him to get heat into the tyres faster therefore his qualifying performance is better.

His race performance is always worse than Kimi's, hence Kimi holding the fastest lap at 9 out of the 14 Grand Prix's so far this season.

Ferrari have come out and said that the F2008 wont get it's front end into the corners the way Raikkonen likes and it's something they've been working on and somewhat solved at Spa.

[DCK]

That's because the F2008 is a piece of crap!

Bet Jenson Button would kill somebody for it though

[Emerald Emblem]

Massa's position compared to Raikonen's is stronger because Massa finds the car better than Raikonen does, the fact Massa is 1 point behind Hamilton should tell you all you need.

[Retro_Link]

Bet Jenson Button would kill somebody for it though

Bet Jenson would kill for a peddle car over his Honda!

 

Massa's position compared to Raikonen's is stronger because Massa finds the car better than Raikonen does, the fact Massa is 1 point behind Hamilton should tell you all you need.

Well if we're gonna look at it in terms of points this season...

 

- Kimi lost a possible 10 or 8 points in Canada, when Lewis ran into the back of him. These two retirements also moved Massa up 2 points positions in that race.

- Kimi lost 2 points in France due to an exhaust failure, which Massa then inherited.

- Kimi was on course to finish first or second at Silverstone, until the wrong tyre choice.

- He lost points in Spa because he had to finish infront of Hamilton, but it didn't pay off.

- Massa was gifted 2 points at Spa due to Hamiltons penalty.

 

It's not as clear cut as you make it. There have been loads of factors that have contributed to where the drivers currently stand in the points table!

[Emerald Emblem]

If the RA109 next year doesn't deliver then Honda really are struggling to get back into F1's top flight, heck even Midfield now.

 

Well if we're gonna look at it in terms of points this season...

 

- Kimi lost a possible 10 or 8 points in Canada, when Lewis ran into the back of him. These two retirements also moved Massa up 2 points positions in that race.

- Kimi lost 2 points in France due to an exhaust failure, which Massa then inherited.

- Kimi was on course to finish first or second at Silverstone, until the wrong tyre choice.

- He lost points in Spa because he had to finish infront of Hamilton, but it didn't pay off.

- Massa was gifted 2 points at Spa due to Hamiltons penalty.

 

It's not as clear cut as you make it. There have been loads of factors that have contributed to where the drivers currently stand in the points table!

You say that as though Ferarri have never dominated anywhere. Both McLaren and Ferrari have had their ups and downs this season.

[Retro_Link]

Both McLaren and Ferrari have had their ups and downs this season.

And has been a large contributer as to why the points table looks as it does!

 

Plus your comments: "Massa finds the car better than Raikkonen does"

 

I agree with... In qualifying!

[Emerald Emblem]

Yet Raikonen can only really do well in the final stage a lot these past few races while Massa has been more consistent. Qualifying position can also determine how well one can do in the race.

[Retro_Link]

Yet Raikonen can only really do well in the final stage a lot these past few races while Massa has been more consistent.

Largely because he's been starting from the front row as opposed to the third!

 

Races where Kimi's actually qualified well this season, or had a great start, he's gone on to win, or shown his quality... Malaysia, Spain, Canada, Silverstone, Spa.

 

But hey, we could probably dispute this all day!

But I agree Massa has found the F2008 easier and that's come through in qualifying, and thus race results.

[Emerald Emblem]

But does that not tell you anything? Maybe if Raikonen can start from the front he might be able to do better. As far as I've seen, it's the wet that's tripping the car up, the dry they tend to be dominant. I'll agree that maybe the car is lacking the capabilities in warming the tires up in the wet. But then Raikonen isn't renowned to being a wet weather specialist either, well neither is Massa I guess, yet it's been dry in more races than wet and Massa has been doing a better job. Raikonen just isn't having the luck he needs, he had the luck last season to snatch the championship but this season is a whole new board game.

[Retro_Link]

But does that not tell you anything? Maybe if Raikonen can start from the front he might be able to do better. As far as I've seen, it's the wet that's tripping the car up, the dry they tend to be dominant. I'll agree that maybe the car is lacking the capabilities in warming the tires up in the wet. But then Raikonen isn't renowned to being a wet weather specialist either, well neither is Massa I guess, yet it's been dry in more races than wet and Massa has been doing a better job.

It not neccassarily wet weather, it's cold weather.

 

Most of the races this year have been colder than expected [with some being actually wet].

Bridgestone as you know bring their two tyre choices based on what they expect the weekend to be like and more often that not this season the race temperatures have been colder than the tyre choices for that race would like.

Thus at most of the races the Ferrari has struggled getting heat into the tyres. Massa has done this better in qualifying and then been ahead in the race.

 

And in terms of the wet races. It's dissapointing because I'd say Raikkonen was good in the wet, his drive in China 2007 from last to 3rd for example and others over the years.

But as the commentators mentioned a couple of times today, this year he's having to break much earlier for corners etc... because neither him or massa can have confidence in the F2008 in the wet.

[Emerald Emblem]

Your point is well argued, but despite some of it luck, Massa has done a better job in this Ferrari car despite it's difficulty warming up the tires? Massa has set himself up for the GP's better than Raikonen who fuels longer. We could say Massa's strategy is giving better results.

[Retro_Link]

Your point is well argued, but despite some of it luck, Massa has done a better job in this Ferrari car despite it's difficulty warming up the tires?

Yes he has done better in the '08 car, full stop!

However I still put that down to little more than it complimenting his driving style better.

Massa has set himself up for the GP's better than Raikonen who fuels longer. We could say Massa's strategy is giving better results.

Totally. Over the years Kimi has always fuelled heavier and run a few laps longer than his rivals, because he's strong in race pace and so often overtakes his rivals with extra flying laps while they pit early. And that has ALWAYS worked for him and worked well... until this year!

 

This year he hasn't quite got the car he'd like, and yet his race strategists are still employing the same fuel heavy approach.

Yet France saw him fuel one lap lighter than Massa, and he blitzed the field in Qualifying 3, not even having to do second attempt if you remember and saving a lap of fuel. He then went on to dominate the race.

 

I really don't know why they haven't used this tactic more often! I remember Martin Brundle saying a few races ago [about what they could do to help Kimi's qualifying]... 'sometimes you try to be so clever with strategy that you just miss the most obvious solution!'

[Emerald Emblem]

Raikonen will finally to an extent help Massa win the championship, though if he has chances he will take them:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8391.html

[gaggle64]

I personally thought it was fair enough that Kimi wasn't eager to play second fiddle, of course even team mates have the right to compete. I suppose he has to accept that as soggy chances were after Spa, Monza came back and drowned that particular bag of kittens in the nearest storm drain.

[Retro_Link]

It makes sense because Kimi would really need two retirements from Hamilton and Massa to be right in amongst it.

Though anything is still possible, especially as the last four races are meant to have a chance of being wet.

And I'm sure he'll still fight for race wins if they're right there for the taking.

 

Good to hear Ferrari are going to try and resolve their tyre heating issues, though it's really too little to late! They should have addressed it right at the start of the season, than just hope they have fortunate weather at each race.

 

Kimi and Massa's thoughts on the car at Monza:

 

Once again Raikkonen cited tyre temperature issues to explain his wildly fluctuating pace.

 

“This was a very difficult race for us,” said the reigning champion.

 

“In the conditions at the start, as we have seen before in the past, we could not keep our tyres up to temperature and we totally lacked grip.

 

“I could do nothing but try to stay on the track hoping the conditions would change.

 

“When they did, unfortunately it was too late to aim for a points finish.

 

“The car worked well, but without grip, you’re not going anywhere.

 

“The situation in the drivers’ championship is now even more difficult, but I will continue to give it my best shot as usual.”

 

Massa spent much of the race's opening stint stuck behind Nico Rosberg’s Williams, then lost more time when he emerged from his first pit stop behind the one-stopping BMW of Nick Heidfeld.

 

“In normal conditions, in other words in the dry, I think I could have made it to the podium,” he said.

 

“In the first part I was struggling because there was not much grip.

It really has been the teams downfall, and the reason why they've lost much of the lead they had in the constructors championship.

[Goron_3]

I think there's a good chance that it could be raining during the next 4 races; Brazil is the only track that is suited to the Ferrari but even then when it's not hot it often rains (a lot). I dunno but i've got this feeling Lewis has the title