High Definition War

[Wesley]

This is just all karma for the Beat Max thing.

[McPhee]

Whoever talked about PC support on Blu-Ray, it should be noted Dell, Apple, HP, and Sony's own brand create PCs with BRD. In other words, the PC industry in itself is alligned with BRD and has been for a long time now. Bottom line, HD DVD is finished and the medium is on life support. When, which will happen, Universal and Paramount leave, the format will be finished completely.

 

If you are going to invest into a player, invest into Blu-Ray.

 

Actually, the only companies that only make Blu-Ray computers are Dell and Sony. Apple haven't bothered at all, despite putting they're name in the Blu-Ray camp at the start of this. HP, Acer, Asus and Toshiba all have HD-DVD machines out.

 

I really hate it when people try to use bullshit to correct me

[Choze]

Paramount and Universal have said they will back HDDVD for now although they didnt deny going Blu ray. Infact Universal are saying they are looking into it and are 'neutral'.

 

The end is near for this silly war.

 

At CES PS3 came out on top for blu ray players. Best quality at 1080p as well as support for features. Not to mention its starts up near instant.

 

Actually, the only companies that only make Blu-Ray computers are Dell and Sony. Apple haven't bothered at all, despite putting they're name in the Blu-Ray camp at the start of this. HP, Acer, Asus and Toshiba all have HD-DVD machines out.

 

I really hate it when people try to use bullshit to correct me

 

bullshit? Your post is the very definition of mistakes. Also dont be rude. Alot of HDDVD owners are saying they were mislead which seems true in your case.

 

HP, Samsung, Acer, Asus etc. do have blu ray computers and laptops. Obviously companies like Sony, Panasonic, Dell, Alienware etc. are exclusive to Blu Ray. Also dont count out Apple so soon. They are part of the Blu Ray group and likely exclusive. The pc market is heavily Blu ray based and thats because of storage space and superior data transfer rates.

 

I hope HD-DVD doesn't just disappear, considering that the players and the HD-DVD's are much cheaper (well, where i live anyway).

 

The next couple of months will be very interesting for hd-dvd.

 

The smart thing is to get rid of the stuff before prices drop like a rock.

[McPhee]

bullshit? Your post is the very definition of mistakes. Also dont be rude. Alot of HDDVD owners are saying they were mislead which seems true in your case.

 

HP, Samsung, Acer, Asus etc. do have blu ray computers and laptops. Obviously companies like Sony, Panasonic, Dell, Alienware etc. are exclusive to Blu Ray. Also dont count out Apple so soon. They are part of the Blu Ray group and likely exclusive. The pc market is heavily Blu ray based and thats because of storage space and superior data transfer rates.

 

Actually, everything i said was true. I'll source it all if you want?

[Sheikah]

Why the hell would something as ridiculous as that end the war? Now something serious as Warner jumping the BD camp, or Paramount not extending it's exclusivity, that coudl decide the war. And not even 0.001% of the population would jump through these hoops.

 

You misunderstood what I was saying. Someone said you could do it to make HD-DVDs from BDs too, so I said that I didn't see that keeping HD-DVD alive. :p

[Noodleman]

The smart thing is to get rid of the stuff before prices drop like a rock.

 

Because once Blu Ray wins all HD-DVD's will instantly become unwatchable

[fex]

Because once Blu Ray wins all HD-DVD's will instantly become unwatchable

 

This news has just been confirmed by Sony

[Slaggis]

Blu-ray: Early adopters knew what they were getting into

by Nate Mook

203 Comments

January 8, 2008, 8:16 PM

 

Blu-ray may have taken a commanding lead in the next-generation format war, but the group has a big problem looming: early supporters of the format will be left out in the cold when the Blu-ray Disc Association introduces BD Profile 2.0

 

Unlike HD DVD, which mandated features such as local storage, a second video and audio decoder for picture-in-picture, and a network connection from the very beginning, the companies behind Blu-ray took a different approach. Initial hardware players lacked these capabilities in order to keep costs down.

 

None of the Profile 1.0 players can be upgraded to Profile 1.1, which was finalized recently, with the exception of the PlayStation 3 -- whose update arrived in mid-December. Likewise, Profile 2.0 is expected to arrive in October bringing Internet connectivity that Profile 1.1 players lack.

 

Representatives at the Blu-ray booth at CES told BetaNews that the PlayStation 3 is currently the only player they would recommend, due to upcoming changes to the platform. But Pioneer, Samsung, Panasonic and Sony have all been selling standalone Blu-ray players to customers.

 

In order to allay confusion, the BDA has adopted special labels that will be placed on Blu-ray movies. Those with a "Bonus View" sticker will require Profile 1.1 players, while those with "BD Live" will require Profile 2.0.

 

In addition, the BD-J interactivity layer, based on Java, has continued to evolve since the introduction of Blu-ray Profile 1.0. This means that early players may have a buggy implementation and perhaps more importantly, they are not powerful enough to play the latest films properly.

When BetaNews asked developers of BD Live whether they were concerned about a backlash from early adopters who supported the format from the beginning, we were told: "They knew what they were getting into."

 

BDA President Andy Parsons echoed that sentiment at the Blu-ray press conference Monday, telling BetaNews that it's normal for new technology to change and older hardware to become obsolete. He added that early Blu-ray owners can continue to do everything they could in the beginning: watch movies in high-definition.

 

Still, the confusion will only likely further alienate existing and potential customers of the nascent format. One key Blu-ray developer told BetaNews that although he builds discs for studios including Fox and Lionsgate, he did not buy a Blu-ray player for personal use.

 

When BetaNews asked why these manufacturers rushed out players that were not fully capable and potentially buggy due to their BD-J implementation, the Blu-ray partner pointed blame across the room to HD DVD. "We should have waited another year to introduce Blu-ray to the public, but the format war changed the situation," he said. HD DVD was already coming and the BDA had no choice but to launch Blu-ray.

 

No idea if that has been posted before, but thought I'd add my part to the arguement anyway.

[Caris]

Meh you can still watch the film that's all most people will be bothered about.

[Jasper]

Couldn't they define and implement before releasing players? Now I'm certainly not buying into BluRay with the chance of having my HD player rendered unusable because the HD movies won't properly play anymore...

[c0Zm1c]

Just get a PS3, since (it seems) its profile can always be upgraded.

[McPhee]

This is why i dislike Blu Ray, it's very design is to screw consumers over.

 

Hardware manufacturers love it because of the constantly evolving spec. Changes to BD-J mean that BD 1.0 and 1.1 players won't be able to play certain disks without skips/judders or possibly even at all! This means that all current Blu-Ray owners (apart from those with a PS3) will have to buy a new player in 12 months time, more lovely money for Panasonic, Samsung et all!

 

Studios love it because of the DRM. Heck, theres even patents to lock disks to the first player it's used in (killing the 2nd hand market) and another to disable the player if it's tampered with in any way (by means of BD Live). No more region free and no more import market.

 

It's all about Sony and they're partners grabbing as much cash as they can from idiot consumers who don't look at what they're buying. How many businesses are they going to kill by removing the 2nd hand and import markets? And how much free money have they gained from selling unfinished Blu-Ray players to unwary consumers?

[DCK]

Just get a PS3, since (it seems) its profile can always be upgraded.

Yeah, since the PS3 has more general computation capabilities it should theoretically always be compatible.

 

It's a crap attitude to do this though. Things like this make me dislike the Bluray Association and (with that) Sony, they don't seem to care one bit about their consumers.

[Choze]

This is why i dislike Blu Ray, it's very design is to screw consumers over.

 

Hardware manufacturers love it because of the constantly evolving spec. Changes to BD-J mean that BD 1.0 and 1.1 players won't be able to play certain disks without skips/judders or possibly even at all!

This means that all current Blu-Ray owners (apart from those with a PS3) will have to buy a new player in 12 months time, more lovely money for Panasonic, Samsung et all!

 

Studios love it because of the DRM. Heck, theres even patents to lock disks to the first player it's used in (killing the 2nd hand market) and another to disable the player if it's tampered with in any way (by means of BD Live). No more region free and no more import market.

]It's all about Sony and they're partners grabbing as much cash as they can from idiot consumers who don't look at what they're buying. How many businesses are they going to kill by removing the 2nd hand and import markets? And how much free money have they gained from selling unfinished Blu-Ray players to unwary consumers?

 

Very unfair and untrue comments.

 

Bear in mind the copy protection has been broken already

 

Yeah, since the PS3 has more general computation capabilities it should theoretically always be compatible.

 

It's a crap attitude to do this though. Things like this make me dislike the Bluray Association and (with that) Sony, they don't seem to care one bit about their consumers.

 

Sony arent really at fault here. Early adopters knew this thats why most have a PS3. Its the highest quality player anyway. The upgradeable stuff is extra, so some people went with non upgradeable players knowingly. most players can be upgraded since they are linux boxes with blu ray drives really(ps3 aside).

 

Its not really an issue can certainly not as bad as dvd players that couldnt read the second layer. Lets not get started with VHS.

[Sanchez]

So how much do blu ray discs actually cost to manufacture and why?

[Jasper]

ony arent really at fault here. Early adopters knew this thats why most have a PS3. Its the highest quality player anyway. The upgradeable stuff is extra, so some people went with non upgradeable players knowingly. most players can be upgraded since they are linux boxes with blu ray drives really(ps3 aside).

 

Its not really an issue can certainly not as bad as dvd players that couldnt read the second layer. Lets not get started with VHS.

 

Honestly, I'm not buying a player to see it outdated just a year after I bought it. DVD didn't really change it's specification, but at least all devices manufactured before a certain date are unable to read it. If they add some more layers, the BD player in the PS3 is rendered useless too because some things can't be done via software.

 

I don't see why they change this stuff all the time. It's for the better, of the new consumer.

 

I'm not buying into this bullcrap. I bet Apple is going to save the day if they can manage to get video downloads running, because Microsoft's NBC download service certainly doesn't really cut it right now. Apple is doing great and I think that Apple will be much less adoptive to BluRay and much ore to ITMS. Downloads is the future, and APple is leading the way (sorry for sounding fanboyish, but all Microsoft attempts at online retail have failed, except for Xbox Marketplace, wich is limited to only xboxes).

[Caris]

Apart from the fact that all music and video from the ITMS is covered in DRM...

[McPhee]

Very unfair and untrue comments.

 

Do i really have to go through my history and dig up sources for every point i made there? I'll tell you what, if you highlight which bits you think are untrue i'll go find the source.

 

Sony arent really at fault here. Early adopters knew this thats why most have a PS3. Its the highest quality player anyway. The upgradeable stuff is extra, so some people went with non upgradeable players knowingly. most players can be upgraded since they are linux boxes with blu ray drives really(ps3 aside).

 

Its not really an issue can certainly not as bad as dvd players that couldnt read the second layer. Lets not get started with VHS.

 

 

Bull. Shit.

 

The difference between Blu-Ray and DVD/VHS etc is that Blu-Ray 2.0 was the original Blu-Ray spec. The BDA kept certain features out due to time/cost restraints so that they could compete with HD-DVD. The added bonus of this is that all current players are obsolete before they leave the shelves.

 

With DVD it was years before dual layer DVDs came out, years before DTS and years before HDMI. It wasn't technologically possible to implement these changes when DVD first came out (1997). Same goes for VHS with stereo sound etc. They were all upgrades, they improved the format and were quite a few years apart.

 

And as for consumers being told, how exactly? A little bit of writing in the back on the manual, some small print on the underside of the box or a line of text on a web page aren't enough to excuse the manufacturers of blame. If they truly wanted consumers to know what they were buying then they would have put a nice big sticker on the front.

 

Don't get me wrong, im not surprised they didn't put a sticker on the front. After all, that would have lost them sales and quite possibly some market share to HD-DVD. Much easier to manipulate consumer stupidity and then blame it on those very same consumers.

 

I really take you're opinion with a pinch of salt anyway. If you did some research for a change i might start to take you seriously, at the moment though you just come across as a fanboy. If you'd actually taken 5 minutes to read up on the matter you'd know that 1.0 players cannot be upgraded to 1.1 because of the hardware requirement. Blu Ray 1.1 requires a minimum of 256MB local video storage, a secondary video decoder and a secondary audio decoder. On top of that 2.0 requires 1GB of local video storage and an Ethernet port. These are all hardware components, they cannot be added in at a later stage.

[Jasper]

Apart from the fact that all music and video from the ITMS is covered in DRM...

 

True. Problem with Microsofts idea is that they're selling something the public doesn't want: subscription. In the past, you payed a subscription to listen to music. What was the advantage of iTMS? You could end your account and still own the music. The moment you stoped paying to Microsoft, the user lost it's data. People don't like that (certainly not with music). And it does offer DRM free, although at a higher price.

 

I'm not fanboyish, but this is where I see the media industry going: Digita Downloads. Up untill now, Microsoft hasn't offered anything usefull of that matter. But Apple has proven itself in the music marketplace.

 

W'll see, but neither BluRay or HD DVD will get widespread addoption before everyone streams their media - but that's as good as my guess goes.

[McPhee]

Apple definitely have the best store, yes. Hardware-wise though can you really see Apple TV taking off? Apple like a world of Apple, something which i can see hurting the company as it expands.

 

I suppose it depends what else is out there really. With the price of computer hardware tumbling all the time and advances in wireless networking i can see Windows Media Centre becoming a good consumer product over the next few years. Then theres BT Vision, Virgin Media and whatever BSkyB pull out of the hat...

[Jasper]

I doubt the revelation will come from Apple TV. But any PC can run iTunes, so maybe we'll see some saviour from there. You never know. BUt even if Apple doesn't do it, it's digital downloads before BluRay or HD DVD even saw the sun really rising.

[Sheikah]

This is why i dislike Blu Ray, it's very design is to screw consumers over.

 

Hardware manufacturers love it because of the constantly evolving spec. Changes to BD-J mean that BD 1.0 and 1.1 players won't be able to play certain disks without skips/judders or possibly even at all! This means that all current Blu-Ray owners (apart from those with a PS3) will have to buy a new player in 12 months time, more lovely money for Panasonic, Samsung et all!

 

Studios love it because of the DRM. Heck, theres even patents to lock disks to the first player it's used in (killing the 2nd hand market) and another to disable the player if it's tampered with in any way (by means of BD Live). No more region free and no more import market.

 

It's all about Sony and they're partners grabbing as much cash as they can from idiot consumers who don't look at what they're buying. How many businesses are they going to kill by removing the 2nd hand and import markets? And how much free money have they gained from selling unfinished Blu-Ray players to unwary consumers?

 

You say this, but as a contradictory example out of the current 3 consoles only the PS3 is mainly region free, at least with the games (while I realise you are referring to video media you are also stating Sony as a whole are trying to remove import markets, so I think that's a pretty valid counter-comment).

 

Region locking is nothing new, and yes it is of course to stop people getting them cheap imported. That's what businesses want to do, to make money. The pound gets you practically 2 dollars, so you could easily get them cheaper from USA, so they're bound to want to lock some stuff.

 

Great tactic to boost the popularity of the PS3 though.

[McPhee]

You say this, but as a contradictory example out of the current 3 consoles only the PS3 is mainly region free, at least with the games (while I realise you are referring to video media you are also stating Sony as a whole are trying to remove import markets, so I think that's a pretty valid counter-comment).

 

Region locking is nothing new, and yes it is of course to stop people getting them cheap imported. That's what businesses want to do, to make money. The pound gets you practically 2 dollars, so you could easily get them cheaper from USA, so they're bound to want to lock some stuff.

 

Great tactic to boost the popularity of the PS3 though.

I was actually referring to the Blu-Ray disk association as a whole, decisions made with regard to Blu-Ray aren't just down to Sony. Fair point with the PS3 though, despite Sony's whole getting Lik-Sang shut down and putting the fear of god in to importers they've done good with the PS3.

 

I'm no Sony hater, I just dislike what I see happening in this particular situation. I think the PS3 is easily the best bit of next-gen hardware, it's feature list is incredible and it's price is amazing! It just lacks the games to warrant a £300 spend at the moment.

 

Sony and they're partners make some incredible kit, but that doesn't change how i feel about BD

[RoadKill]

Don't forget Blu-ray is region coded (3 regions) and HD-DVD is region free

[Mr_Odwin]

Bear in mind the copy protection has been broken already

 

One part of it. BD+ (used on newer discs) remains non-breakable.