=NukeBlaze= Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 ^high five to you for labeling. Quote The fact that you only said nonsense, only makes me think that your try was less than 1 minute during boot. I have used the beta and the commercial release for more than your assumed "single minute", its XP with a new shell, a purposely forced dx10 upgrade, and more DRM. I am unsure how you can dispute that, other than claiming everything is "nonsense" and leaving it at that. Quote The fact that it has updates or SPs only indicates that they keep up, like any other OS, and no, Vista as it is isn't a beta of any sorts. Get over your bias. Again, let us check on what I said. In the first post, I mentioned I am tried beta testing MS-es, in which I don't wish to deal with anymore. XP and 98 gold are especially notorious in this. The management bungle of vista's development is legendary and known. The second, is where I spoke of updates and how firms are weary to implement the large SPs, which may be some logical justification for the rumor they are dealing away with them, but on the hand I mentioned it may make it worse because of the lack of static levels of an OS. Updates are good, quick updates are better regardless for an system, but the term "revolutionary" is not something that can be ascribed to vista. If you would like to clue me in onto what superior features it has over a new shell and DX10, I welcome the information. I do not care what perception you want to claim on my knowledge or skill, I am not here to try to haughtily demonstrate, but I would like to point out that it is not all rainbows and unicorns with vista.
Caris Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 =NukeBlaze= said: + forced DX10 "feature" + No fundamental change of security. This is when i stoped taking notice of you.
=NukeBlaze= Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 ^ So your claim is in line with it not being possible to implement DX10 onto XP, as well as the other has significantly changed? If you have questions or arguments on either I would happily discuss them. From some developers I have spoken to, and take John Carmack of ID, all have expressed questions on why DX10 is not compatable for XP Quote John Carmack:"They're artificially doing that by tying DX10 [DirectX 10] so close it, which is really nothing about the OS. It's a hardware-interface spec. It's an artificial thing that they're doing there. "They're really grasping at straws for reasons to upgrade the operating system. I suspect I could run XP for a great many more years without having a problem with it." The features are a nice thing, also can be done on openGL2.0, but what angers me is the artificial reason to get people to upgrade. In addition, another "VISTA" only game, modded to run on XP. http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7833 I don't see how you can claim this is not an artificial implementation, but I would like to hear if you want to tell me...Even if you possibly claim a "Paternalistic" green status with not having the time to bother with such a "peasant" whom has information counter to your constructed reality. Honestly, I really don't mind if you take notice, even if you believe it as some sort of insult. This thread is Vista, and here it is. Good or Bad.
theguyfromspark Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 The Vista only games are Vista only because of the Games For Windows thing, which Microsoft wants to keep solely on Vista. This is to promote Vista as a gaming OS in order to encourage more people to upgrade. This probably sucks for those who won't be able to upgrade for a while but that's the nature of business and the nature of PC gaming: Businesses want you to buy the latest stuff right away and in order to play the latest games, you need to upgrade your machine. The fact that Microsoft has done this should come as no surprise. Most PCs today come with Vista, in a years time you won't be able to buy an XP PC brand new. The DirectX 10 thing is a separate issue, I'm no hardware expert by any means but there are some articles out there that state that DirectX 10 is intended to be a clean slate of sorts. It uses the new driver model of Vista completely and is therefore incompatible with the XP driver model. As I said, I don't know enough to say whether this is true or not but it sounds plausable anyway. Chances are most people haven't got a DirectX 10 card anyway and those who do fork out for one will probably be fine in upgrading to Vista while they're at it anyway. No Direct10 card? Just play the game in 9 mode. No Vista? Just play the game in 9 mode.
Cube Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Odd problem: My mouse cursor reverts back to the default one every time windows starts.
motion Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Is it worth upgrading to this now? I wanted to wait till SP1 came out but I'm not sure I can be arse waiting anymore. In fact SP1 may even be out, I' not sure.
theguyfromspark Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 motion2000 said: Is it worth upgrading to this now? I wanted to wait till SP1 came out but I'm not sure I can be arse waiting anymore. In fact SP1 may even be out, I' not sure. SP1 won't be out until early next year, it got delayed because Google wants to override the default search with it's own version (short story). Although, Service Packs in Vista are going to be less important as most of the fixes in them will have already been delivered to end users via windows update, months before. Service Packs in Vista will be viewed as "service milestones" meaning that when SP1 arrives, Vista has reached the next level of stability with most of the major issues patched.
AeroScap Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 It's fine I do reccomend an upgrade, as for myself I am running ultimate on a x600 laptop and it fine! and I plan to have it with my new desktop aswell. The only niggle is just that wow has a problem whilst patching (which involved a "run as xp sp2" option and run as admin) then it was fixed. Plus the fact that I cant right click and unrar "here" have to double click and extract to. No problems after that, runs great on 1gb with wow + media player + internet on my gateway 6640b. A for vistaaaaaa
Cube Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 AeroScap said: Plus the fact that I cant right click and unrar "here" have to double click and extract to. I can "Extract here" with Winrar on Vista.
Shino Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 =NukeBlaze= said: I have used the beta and the commercial release for more than your assumed "single minute", its XP with a new shell, a purposely forced dx10 upgrade, and more DRM. I am unsure how you can dispute that, other than claiming everything is "nonsense" and leaving it at that. It is way more than just a shell, it looks like it, because every OS is an expansion of the previous ones. It's a more efficient, many of its APIs where rebuilt, comes with directx 10 even if you say its forced, and I like DRM as much as the next guy but I don't see anyone complain about it if its in a Mac. =NukeBlaze= said: Again, let us check on what I said. In the first post, I mentioned I am tried beta testing MS-es, in which I don't wish to deal with anymore. XP and 98 gold are especially notorious in this. The management bungle of vista's development is legendary and known. They started it all over just to make it better, I don't see a problem with that. =NukeBlaze= said: The second, is where I spoke of updates and how firms are weary to implement the large SPs, which may be some logical justification for the rumor they are dealing away with them, but on the hand I mentioned it may make it worse because of the lack of static levels of an OS. Updates are good, quick updates are better regardless for an system, but the term "revolutionary" is not something that can be ascribed to vista. Don't tell me your so naive and can't distinguish Marketing and PR. Every company does this, Apple's "revolutionary" new iPhone, Nintendo's "revolutionary" Wiimote, Sony's "revolutionary" 4D, etc... =NukeBlaze= said: I do not care what perception you want to claim on my knowledge or skill, I am not here to try to haughtily demonstrate, but I would like to point out that it is not all rainbows and unicorns with vista. I don't assume it is, but it ain't hell either. It's a clear evolution from XP, with the enough updates to make end users like it, but specially its an internal makeover to an ancient structure that can only be noticed by devs.
AshMat Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 WHo gives a shit if there are SPs anyway? It's a lkittle download that happens once, if even that a year.
Cube Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Anyone got a solution to my cursor switching to default on startup problem?
That Guy Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Shino said: It is way more than just a shell, it looks like it, because every OS is an expansion of the previous ones. It's a more efficient, many of its APIs where rebuilt, comes with directx 10 even if you say its forced, and I like DRM as much as the next guy but I don't see anyone complain about it if its in a Mac. They started it all over just to make it better, I don't see a problem with that. Don't tell me your so naive and can't distinguish Marketing and PR. Every company does this, Apple's "revolutionary" new iPhone, Nintendo's "revolutionary" Wiimote, Sony's "revolutionary" 4D, etc... I don't assume it is, but it ain't hell either. It's a clear evolution from XP, with the enough updates to make end users like it, but specially its an internal makeover to an ancient structure that can only be noticed by devs. With what I've seen of Vista, I'm tempted to believe you.
theguyfromspark Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Cube said: Anyone got a solution to my cursor switching to default on startup problem? What cursor are you trying to set as default? Is it a built in one or one from a third party? If it's third party you may need to install it by right clicking the inf file of the cursor and selecting install.
Cube Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 theguyfromsparks said: What cursor are you trying to set as default? Is it a built in one or one from a third party? If it's third party you may need to install it by right clicking the inf file of the cursor and selecting install. I set it up on the cursor settings and "saved as". When it starts up, it loads the default one (but my mouse pointer theme is still selected in the mouse options - I have to apply another theme then re-apply the one I want). And there is no inf file.
theguyfromspark Posted June 27, 2007 Posted June 27, 2007 Cube said: I set it up on the cursor settings and "saved as". When it starts up, it loads the default one (but my mouse pointer theme is still selected in the mouse options - I have to apply another theme then re-apply the one I want). And there is no inf file. After you've selected the theme you want, do you click the "use Default" button, then apply?
motion Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Can anyone recommend the cheapest place to buy an OEM copy of Windows Design Premium? I'd rather not have to buy it but might as well I guess. Also, difference beween 32 bit and 64 bit? Which is best for graphic design work, and possible 3D modelling and animation.
=NukeBlaze= Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Quote TheGuyFromSparks: The Vista only games are Vista only because of the Games For Windows thing, which Microsoft wants to keep solely on Vista. This is to promote Vista as a gaming OS in order to encourage more people to upgrade. This probably sucks for those who won't be able to upgrade for a while but that's the nature of business and the nature of PC gaming: Businesses want you to buy the latest stuff right away and in order to play the latest games, you need to upgrade your machine. The fact that Microsoft has done this should come as no surprise. Most PCs today come with Vista, in a years time you won't be able to buy an XP PC brand new. The DirectX 10 thing is a separate issue, I'm no hardware expert by any means but there are some articles out there that state that DirectX 10 is intended to be a clean slate of sorts. It uses the new driver model of Vista completely and is therefore incompatible with the XP driver model. As I said, I don't know enough to say whether this is true or not but it sounds plausable anyway. Chances are most people haven't got a DirectX 10 card anyway and those who do fork out for one will probably be fine in upgrading to Vista while they're at it anyway. No Direct10 card? Just play the game in 9 mode. No Vista? Just play the game in 9 mode. The argument of whether it is possible or not to implement DX10 on XP takes root in the manner MS designed its integration into Vista. I know the DX10 implementation is claimed to reduce overhead by design, but I am critical of MS's explanations on items as they are usually weaved with half truths and business, and the addition of complete void of MS attempt at XP compatibility with DX10. Locking DX9 games from XP is another thing... As I mentioned a developer has mentioned Quote John Carmack:They're artificially doing that by tying DX10 [DirectX 10] so close to it, which is really nothing about the OS. It's a hardware-interface spec. It's an artificial thing that they're doing there. I do not dispute that there ARE technical reasons which cause integration issues, I dispute weither these reasons are artificially created to attempt to differentiate a product, as you mentioned "business". Here is another developer from Falling Leaf systems. They are developing a DX10 layer for XP and comment on whether dx10 is feasible on XP: Quote Falling Leaf: Microsoft is telling the truth, that doing straight DX10 on XP isn't feasible -- the way they implemented it. To implement DX10 functionality standalone (e.g. talking directly to the driver layer) required redesigning large parts of the system, due to DX not being extensible at all. However, we sit purely on top of OpenGL, which already supports all of the functionality in DX10. This way, we can use existing APIs and not have to worry about a new driver layer. If you want a developer outlook, I frequent Beyond3d and view their material. Here are some nice past reads of mine which give it from a dev standpoint. Not every poster is a dev, but the density of dev/posters there is quite high compared to many other places on the interblarg. The staff are also quite good. http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/55 http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=41148 http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=41991 The first link is on of the best, opting that becuse of lack of MS help In addition, you mentioned that "Vista only" business program for "vista games", and of course "DX9" backwards compatibility for windows XP. Here is the issue, they are INTENTIONALLY locking DX9 games from XP in this program. Shadowrun is an example of a "games for Vista", as it is DX9 and requires 3-party "unlocking" to run on XP. So, let me roll back to a state of "neutrality" on the DX10 issue for the sake of discussion. It can be debated that its implantation is for function, but it could also be that it was done in a way which decreases overhead and cuts off support for previous implementations for OS sales reasons. I just hope OpenGL stays in devs minds. Quote Shino:Don't tell me your so naive and can't distinguish Marketing and PR. Every company does this, Apple's "revolutionary" new iPhone, Nintendo's "revolutionary" Wiimote, Sony's "revolutionary" 4D, etc... Marketing, PR, its an "a = b = crap", its algebra symmetry. I am aware that it exists, but that does not mean I like the notion that it exists as it typically a face value obscuring for the average Joe.
theguyfromspark Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 An interesting comment was made by someone on a forum elsewhere: When MS or Sony release the XBox 720 and Playstation 4 you won't expect the Xbox 720 and PS 4 games to work on the 360 and PS3. MS are aiming for the same cut off in Windows OSes in regards to gaming.
=NukeBlaze= Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Quote Motion2000:Can anyone recommend the cheapest place to buy an OEM copy of Windows Design Premium? I'd rather not have to buy it but might as well I guess. Also, difference beween 32 bit and 64 bit? Which is best for graphic design work, and possible 3D modelling and animation. The most tangible benefit for going from 32-64bit is in the amount of RAM the system can address. 32-bit OSes are limited to a 4GB address space which is shared by system memory, Graphics memory(discrete), and other system resources. For example, if you purchased a system with 4 GB of memory, a 32-bit version of windows may only see 3-3.5 GB of the total 4GB of system RAM. As far as Adobe's Creative Suite 3 premium, the upgrade version is more than half less than the full version. I imagine you don;t have an older version. If you attend university, you may want to check to see if you can obtain a academic version of it, as the acedemic version is the same cost as an upgrade version ( $590 USD vs $1190 USD). Quote When MS or Sony release the XBox 720 and Playstation 4 you won't expect the Xbox 720 and PS 4 games to work on the 360 and PS3. MS are aiming for the same cut off in Windows OSes in regards to gaming. Aye, but there is a large difference between the two. The consoles have a genuine hardware limitation with the previous which is always in the form of a processing increase, and sometimes in the form of hardware architecture change. For example, THe Xbox --> Xbox 360 went from an INTEL/Nvidia base, to a PowerPC/ATI base through which emulation is done on the 360 hardware, via software, to run legacy Xbox games. The big emulation problem was originally Nvidia's GPU microcode on the new ATI console, which there were certain technical and legal baggage. The only prevention of DX10 compatibility on XP is that MS is not going to put forth any effort for the "Software" limitation imposed by the manner in which they created the vista/Dx10 driver interface. Software is considerably more malleable than hardware, hence the issue with the comparison. It shares elements and conveys an idea, but there is not enough in common to technically compare. After all, you can have two systems with identical hardware specifications that sport a DX10 display adapter, which differs greatly from the console comparison. As the beyond3d article mentioned, if anything is to happen, it needs MS's help of which is entirely lacking on purpose for business reasons. The best thought-based solution they came up with on XP is an openGL 2.0 wrapper on DX10. Personally, I don't really care about DX10 features, its the fact that they shunt it off completely from others running anything but vista that has me critical. But, as I mentioned before, I will attempt to assume a state of neutrality on the issue of wether it was implemented from the get go to serve this purpose under the guise of less overhead.
motion Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 Which version of Vista do you all have? And in 32 or 64bits? I'm gonna be upgrading any day now and interested what you've all got and why...
KKOB Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 motion2000 said: Which version of Vista do you all have? And in 32 or 64bits? I'm gonna be upgrading any day now and interested what you've all got and why... questions questions. hope you don't choose the wrong one lmao
=NukeBlaze= Posted June 28, 2007 Posted June 28, 2007 ^ I replied to your Q above to avoid a double post, but it seems you were quicker than I. THe main reason for using a 64-bit OS is primarily for additional memory addressing. Performance benefits between the two are just not there yet. Just make sure you hardware has 64 bit drivers available if you really want it, otherwise I recommend 32-bit for the time being. The main reason is that adobe's software is 32-bit compiled, hence there will no 64-bit benefit (If any) because of it.
Slaggis Posted June 30, 2007 Posted June 30, 2007 motion2000 said: Which version of Vista do you all have? And in 32 or 64bits? I'm gonna be upgrading any day now and interested what you've all got and why... I've got 32 bit becuase I just thought it would be easier and I know I will never have or want more than 4GB of ram. =NukeBlaze= said: ^ When large clients, such as intel's CEO Paul Otellini, claim they are waiting for a service pack before considering implementation, I doubt whatever Microsoft wants to claim on their PR line. Implementation of SPs has been cumbersome for the IT people due to fear of items no longer working, but this is the same for updates. The XP SPs at least served as benchmarks for the 3 levels of XP, original/SP1/SP2. I do not see how they are going to go the "update route", especially because without the SP lands , I imagine it would drive admins crazy keeping track of the hundreds of combinations of upgrades without these marks of stagnation. Regardless, the official word to my knowledge is a VISTA SP later this year early 2008 more likely, with the RUMOR of no SPs at all. Below is a Vista developer blog, which again supports the mentioned SP1 for vista. SP1 is not the rumor currently, it is the lack of one which is. http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2007/04/03/not-a-post-on-sp1.aspx Microsoft said themselves that they want to get SP1 beta for vista out by the end of 2007.
=NukeBlaze= Posted July 1, 2007 Posted July 1, 2007 ^Aye, that is the reason I said the opposite was a rumor. There is still much to fix, and venders with drivers to mend.
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