If Wii has more power than an Xbox...

[dabookerman]

Games take years to get great graphics, apparently.

 

Didnt smash bros brawl start development very recently? And that looks like a game i would call Next/New gen.

[system_error]

So you're saying they ignored 5 years of evolution and didn't include any of those functions? I find it hard to believe, specialy after what we already saw.

 

Yes I do! Where are the - to compare it to PC hardware - DirectX 9 standards? Shaders?

 

So far a lot of games have still problems with dithering (which would be avoided by a real TRUE color mode), I don't see much filtering or AntiAliasing. Where is the standard with 16:9, 480p at 60FPS? Shouldn't a GPU do that in the year 2006?

[Hellfire]

 

If his suit looks a bit plastic to you, well maybe its because he's wearing a suit made from plastic material..perhaps.?

You can do better than that :P

 

Anyway, some people need to see some things.

 

 

EDIT: SAying Wii will be between GC and XBOX is such bullshit it boggles the mind.

[dabookerman]

Metroid Prime still looks like the cube versions with a few added effects.

Mario Galaxy has a style to it, and i would expect it to look great

Zelda is a ported cube game thats been in development for over 3 years.

Excitetrucks looks great, but not wow worthy.

 

You can do better than that :P

 

Better then what?

[Shino]

but 'gamers dont care for cutting-edge graphics'.

 

By repeating this mantra, Nintendo is effectively telling developers: ''go ahead and publish your shitty (-looking) game! Its ok, it detects motion!'

 

Some of these 3rd party games* look almost intentionally bad, as though the developer had to put forth extra effort to make it look worse than a GC game

 

-Necro-nesia<Luigi's Mansion (5 year old game)

-Wing Island looks slightly better than Pilotwings --SNES

-GT Pro, more like GT Ugh

-Wii Sports (redeemed for being a 'free' pack-in)

 

Finally some one who sees this the same way I do.

 

Games take years to get great graphics, apparently.

 

Didnt smash bros brawl start development very recently? And that looks like a game i would call Next/New gen.

 

It started development in last September, so is in development for about a year,and they have a huge and gifted team.

 

Yes I do! Where are the - to compare it to PC hardware - DirectX 9 standards? Shaders?

 

So far a lot of games have still problems with dithering (which would be avoided by a real TRUE color mode), I don't see much filtering or AntiAliasing. Where is the standard with 16:9, 480p at 60FPS? Shouldn't a GPU do that in the year 2006?

 

Yes it should, but just because we don't see it yet doesn't mean it isn't there, and we can already see many of those shaders specially in Mario Galaxy.

[system_error]

@Shino:

 

How long do I have to wait? After all Nintendo said it more than often enough - development will be easy on the Wii because it is very similar to the Gamecube. So developers had more than enough time to achieve XBOX+ niveau but I don't see those games yet. Nintendo first party games and RedSteel are the exception but I mean Nintendo also build the console and Ubisoft had the best support of all third party developers.

 

 

Please don't start with "...but the controller is new and takes time to implement..." because Nintendo supplied libraries and everything I assume and it is a no brainer to think how you would use the controller in a FPS. So far nothing "revolutionary" done with the controller - just stuff I can come up within a few hours.

 

Yeah Mario Galaxy looks better than the other games but it is not a launch game and if you look at the pictures some serious AntiAliasing is needed...

[raven_blade2006]

Listen guys, be patient and the goods will come. The devs have their priorities in different places at this moment in time. For them it goes like this:

 

Adapting to the Wiimote > Graphical Perfection

 

When they sort out the controls for the games, then they focus on the graphics. Look at the improvement in Red Steel, SMG, Metroid and Excitetruck. Once they sorted the game play mechanics they moved onto perfecting the graphics and the improvement is stunning. Same thing happening now.

 

@Shino:

 

How long do I have to wait? After all Nintendo said it more than often enough - development will be easy on the Wii because it is very similar to the Gamecube. So developers had more than enough time to achieve XBOX+ niveau but I don't see those games yet. Nintendo first party games and RedSteel are the exception but I mean Nintendo also build the console and Ubisoft had the best support of all third party developers.

 

 

Please don't start with "...but the controller is new and takes time to implement..." because Nintendo supplied libraries and everything I assume and it is a no brainer to think how you would use the controller in a FPS. So far nothing "revolutionary" done with the controller - just stuff I can come up within a few hours.

 

Yeah Mario Galaxy looks better than the other games but it is not a launch game and if you look at the pictures some serious AntiAliasing is needed...

 

I think you will find programming for, testing and debugging for the wiimote takes more than a 'few hours'. This is no ordinary controller.

[Hellfire]

Metroid Prime still looks like the cube versions with a few added effects.

Mario Galaxy has a style to it, and i would expect it to look great

Zelda is a ported cube game thats been in development for over 3 years.

Excitetrucks looks great, but not wow worthy.

 

 

 

Metroid looks way better than the GC version, the thing is the GC version was almost perfect graphically, if you seriously think it looks only slightly better than MP1 and 2 you're crazy. And TP being a GC game only adds mor strength to the wii power, if a GC game can look this great imagine a Wii game. Seriously, it's like you hate me or something

 

EDIT: system-error if you think implementig the controller is easy you're way off the chart, lots of devs said that it's not that easy to ajust the sensibility and come up with ideas. We're talking about a radically different control scheme here.

[ZeldaFreak]

Shino, at the Q&A session after the Brawl trailer they said that they have been only working on the it for roughly a month, as they have been setting up offices anyway if it was started last september then it would of been playable at loads of the press events , or even the key ones.

[dabookerman]

Seriously, it's like you hate me or something

 

The hell?

[Shino]

@Shino:

 

How long do I have to wait? After all Nintendo said it more than often enough - development will be easy on the Wii because it is very similar to the Gamecube. So developers had more than enough time to achieve XBOX+ niveau but I don't see those games yet. Nintendo first party games and RedSteel are the exception but I mean Nintendo also build the console and Ubisoft had the best support of all third party developers.

 

 

Please don't start with "...but the controller is new and takes time to implement..." because Nintendo supplied libraries and everything I assume and it is a no brainer to think how you would use the controller in a FPS. So far nothing "revolutionary" done with the controller - just stuff I can come up within a few hours.

 

Yeah Mario Galaxy looks better than the other games but it is not a launch game and if you look at the pictures some serious AntiAliasing is needed...

 

I agree with you, games should look better and as Pit-Jr said they're doing it intentionally bad, i don't know if they just wanna show some work or don't wan't to be out of the Wii trend. I guess that even with a similar structure, they still need to get updated on the new features that they didn't had 5 years ago.

 

Don't judge a game by pictures, I've known since the N64 that it always look bad, back then N64 games lookes like PS games on magazines. And these Mario Galaxy pics are out of they're original resolution.

 

 

Shino, at the Q&A session after the Brawl trailer they said that they have been only working on the it for roughly a month, as they have been setting up offices anyway if it was started last september then it would of been playable at loads of the press events , or even the key ones.

 

Yeah, you're right, but I still espect it to be complete at March.

[Hellfire]

The hell?

 

Just kidding man.

I also think most devs are being lazy, it's like sabotage, "hey the Wii's weak so let's make DC graphics!". Still, not very bothered, the games I want look good.

[Pit-Jr]

is it just me or does Mario Galaxy look really desolate. Needs more comet. And space plants.

 

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=2660

[Kurtle Squad]

I thought Halo 2 had pants graphics in a lot of respects actually. The only things I thought were good were SOME, VERY LITTLE, A FEW lighting effects, and the water was okay too.

[dabookerman]

I thought Halo 2 had pants graphics in a lot of respects actually. The only things I thought were good were SOME, VERY LITTLE, A FEW lighting effects, and the water was okay too.

 

Indeed, and I thought all the rave was about the online multiplayer and not the graphics

[pedrocasilva]

Ohhh no another thread about graphics...

 

Yes I do! Where are the - to compare it to PC hardware - DirectX 9 standards? Shaders?

 

So far a lot of games have still problems with dithering (which would be avoided by a real TRUE color mode), I don't see much filtering or AntiAliasing. Where is the standard with 16:9, 480p at 60FPS? Shouldn't a GPU do that in the year 2006?

GC DOES shaders, We already know that, no matter what IGN says, GC is also better than Xbox in every possible thing, there no such things as "Xbox can do some things Wii can't".

 

As for Direct X 9 standards... they don't matter since it's a API that GC doesn't use, it's a standalone GPU, of course it won't be compliant not with DirectX nor Shader Model X.x, it might do them in another way, it might even do them better... but it won't be harder to pull.

 

There's games on Wii running at 16:9, 480p and 60 frames, not a big deal, since Wii is still in SD.

 

Now for Xbox 360 you would need 10 times the fill rate to output the same 20 million polygons in HD (1080i)... that's why most games run at 30 fps, also PS3 games are having problems running at 1080p, let alone at 60 frames per second, factor 5 might achieve it, but it's no laughing matter, and we've seen recently the engine graphics being downgraded to achieve that.

 

Will you say they're not true next gen systems because of that?

Metroid Prime still looks like the cube versions with a few added effects.

Mario Galaxy has a style to it, and i would expect it to look great

Zelda is a ported cube game thats been in development for over 3 years.

Excitetrucks looks great, but not wow worthy.

Metroid Prime on cube wasn't pushing the max, it was a 15 million polygon game at 60 frames per second that wasn't using all it's effects and it lacked bump mapping implementation (because the team wanted it that way).

 

Now... Rogue Squadron II did 12-15 million polygons, Rogue Squadron II did 21-30 million polygons, I didn't hear anywhere "wow, Rogue Squadron III is such a big improvement".

 

This is standard definition, hell HD console games (specially X360) are having a hard time not looking like Xbox 1,5... There's a point where theres just so much detail that it just doesn't matter anymore. meaning graphics take time to achieve, it's not just the ability to model something with high poly counts and throw it in the game, because the machine hardware can bear with it.

How long do I have to wait? After all Nintendo said it more than often enough - development will be easy on the Wii because it is very similar to the Gamecube. So developers had more than enough time to achieve XBOX+ niveau but I don't see those games yet. Nintendo first party games and RedSteel are the exception but I mean Nintendo also build the console and Ubisoft had the best support of all third party developers.

Microsoft focuses heavily on graphics, they paid for enhanced graphic ports from Ps2 games this gen whereas GC was recieving PS2 ports... GC is clearly not in PS2 realm when talking about graphics so... I expect nothing to believe developers would use more development time just because they wanted to make a multiplatform game look "pretty" on xbox.

 

Red steel is not pushing the Wii, also most small pictures are resized, if you look closely most of them are not even 4:3, which looks rather odd, since there are no 5:4 TV's out there, neither is 640x512 or, same for recent Splinter Cell 4 pics.

Yeah Mario Galaxy looks better than the other games but it is not a launch game and if you look at the pictures some serious AntiAliasing is needed...

yeah, the thing is... you (or we) are used to press release photos with things as super sampling and anti aliasing to the max... but the games don't run that way on the telly.

 

This is true for most Xbox screenshots, hey... this thread starts with a Halo 2 screenshot at 800x600... the game runs at 640x480 (480p) no more... so what is that? it's not running through the console I assure you.

 

Same with those Ninja gaiden pics last page with 1024x576 they're not actual screenshots they're just showing the build.

 

As I said in the far cry thread... far cry on wii has no more jaggies than the Xbox one... (and showed a pic proving it).

Please don't start with "...but the controller is new and takes time to implement..." because Nintendo supplied libraries and everything I assume and it is a no brainer to think how you would use the controller in a FPS. So far nothing "revolutionary" done with the controller - just stuff I can come up within a few hours.

It's actually hard to implement, specially for early adopters, and yes they're things you can think of in a few hours, but can't pull out on any other platform in the world (not like that...

 

How's that for inovative?

 

When they sort out the controls for the games, then they focus on the graphics. Look at the improvement in Red Steel, SMG, Metroid and Excitetruck. Once they sorted the game play mechanics they moved onto perfecting the graphics and the improvement is stunning. Same thing happening now.

Actually if you know how to make a game you won't make crap graphics at first, because it'll take more time to redo them than doing them good to start with (leading to slow development time), it'll probably look just as bad in the end... hence the critics.

 

Look at zelda TP now, it looks gorgeous but graphically the biggest changes since last year's build are actually in the shaders, link is not pulling double the polygons now.

I thought Halo 2 had pants graphics in a lot of respects actually. The only things I thought were good were SOME, VERY LITTLE, A FEW lighting effects, and the water was okay too.

Halo 2 could run on GC (if ported) at 60 frames per second (the original at Xbox ran at 30 frames), reproducing every single polygon, effects and bump mapping/texturing.

 

the only drawback is that GC lacked the amount of RAM needed to house all those bump mapped textures at once. meaning they would need a resolution downgrade, this is not a sign of weakness though, it's just that GC had 24 MB of main (fast) RAM for storage, whereas Xbox had a single bank with 64 MB, 16 MB from those 64 MB where used for z-buffer alone so that leaves us 48 MB.

 

Sure those 48 MB were also for sound and all, and where slower than those 24 MB on GC, the thing is the ammount of textures (and resolutions) that could be shown in a open scenario, whereas GC could go and load them just like it does in metroid prime. GC had more (slower) memory banks, thus if someone where to port it they could always try to use them for caching to reach the same effect, but we'd still have a problem, disc storage.

 

Anyway... GC could handle everything Halo 2 did with ease, with a problem with RAM and disc storage... but the same is not true, if we talk about metroid prime 1 (or 2) on Xbox.

 

EDIT:

 

Do you think that Halo 2 could be on the Gamecube, since it uses so many vertex shaders and bump-mapping? >>

The vertex shaders are used for bumpmapping in Halo/Halo2.

 

Halo on GCN? Possible. Halo 2 is very questionable.

 

Why? It's obvious that Halo 2 has downgraded polygonal models, but bumpmapping is a serious resource killer. It would take some serious recaching of GCN's 3MB buffer to make this happen (along with help from texture layers) in order to keep the game bumpmapped on every surface.

 

IMO, Every poly can be recreated on GCN, though textures would obviously be smaller (40MB on Xbox for textures, plus HD compared to 16-40MB on GCN). If rewritten with smaller texture files, the GCN should be able to run Halo 2 at double the framerate looking at the specs.

 

The question is whether Xbox could run Metroid Prime without serious loadtimes, "checkpoints" and other resting points to catch up on all the geomtry/texturework streamed from the disc..

Source: http://forums.g4tv.com/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=54975&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=arc&STARTPAGE=8

 

The original thread in the link should be unreachable though.

[James McGeachie]

Random information I don't think anyone will have mentioned yet (I've not read every post though) but remember the Wii's control is a lot more complex than the other systems...it'll take extra processing power for the system to work out like the calculations to do things, a good deal more so than a normal controller, so that probably has an effect on the power it has left for visuals.

[pedrocasilva]

Random information I don't think anyone will have mentioned yet (I've not read every post though) but remember the Wii's control is a lot more complex than the other systems...it'll take extra processing power for the system to work out like the calculations to do things, a good deal more so than a normal controller, so that probably has an effect on the power it has left for visuals.

Nah, the information is already handed out processed.

 

the sensor bar and wiimote should be pretty presise, they can send/recieve data a few thousand times a second, that's just like a mouse (except a mouse sends that data in 2D, x and y coordinates) it's no big fuzz for the CPU interpreting them like it's meant to be, not a resource killer. there's no diference in processing power needed between a regular optical mouse and a gamer mouse for FPS's, you won't get less FPS in half life 2/Counter Strike Source because of it.

 

Of course the rest depends on what you're doing with the hardware, FPS (for example) should be pretty fluid as you don't want the game to start slowing down and lagging when you're controlling it with a more immersive pad, a non-responsive game should spoil the experience more than it would on a normal joypad, but that kind of pushing is not due to the controller, it's just something that you must have in attention.

 

on the other side, a FPS on Wii shouldn't never be a experience ressembling that of a shaky cam, and that would be the easiest to implement since no one can keep their hands completly still, but that will lead to motion sickness on gamers, thus they must make it work well, intuitive and responsive, but not "shaky".

[James McGeachie]

Well what if a Wii game was doing like motion capturing to record hand movements (like they should be doing) so they're real time, wouldn't there be a lot of physics processing involved?

[mcj metroid]

i think a lot of wii games are gorgeus and coulnt get better with or without more power.mario galaxy,pangya and monkey ball are examples

[mario_jr]

I think you just put an end to all this ranting, thanks Pedro.

hopefuly

Pedro offers you his protection

VOTE VOR PEDRO:horse:

[Dilli Gee]

Thanks.. does anyone wanna try to talk me out of it or am I maybe doing the right thing and enjoying some great games cheap instead of waiting and getting a Wii soon after its release?

At under £10 for some of the best games around, new, you can't fault the Xbox. Make sure you get the decent controller though, and not the shitty one.

[Kurtle Squad]

At under £10 for some of the best games around, new, you can't fault the Xbox. Make sure you get the decent controller though, and not the shitty one.

 

You mean S? And I think all the consoles have decent games below £10

 

Anyway..erm there is the whole 'start of the consoles life argument'; and as you can see, it does come into this; Nintendo games have far better graphics than 3rd partys so far on the Wii,that's because they've had a lot more time to upgrade the graphics, whereas 3rd parties started on the GC not THAT long ago.

 

Also, graphics on games like Smash Bros. & other later released 'Tendo arent gonna be that good from what we've seen so far; the gameplay & character moves etc etc etc designs etc are made 1st, as the graphics are, generally an easier thing to do when upgrading, you don't have to faff around with physics etc etc blah blah.

 

(Metroid looks awesome to me)

[Shino]

(Sorry if that stuff's been said already)

 

Everything said here has been talked during the last year over and over again.

[pedrocasilva]

Well what if a Wii game was doing like motion capturing to record hand movements (like they should be doing) so they're real time, wouldn't there be a lot of physics processing involved?

Physics is not a requirement, since it's just translating into the game the given coordinates.

 

Now... you could use physics if you want what you do to really influence the virtual world around, elebits using havok physics is a well known example.

 

Something even more physics intensive (not necessarily in the same genre) could be done.

i think a lot of wii games are gorgeus and couldnt get better with or without more power.mario galaxy,pangya and monkey ball are examples

Graphics can always get better, Mario Galaxy, Pangya and Monkey ball are no diferent. But other next gen consoles need all that power also because they're doing HD, and can't relly on the controller alone to sell units.

 

Also, considering Wii does SD graphics does it really need more power? would double the poligons on-screen make it look significantly better? Bare in mind that this (more power) would turn the console into a more complex one, more expensive for the developers and for us. IMO... it's not worth it.

 

But Wii is no laughing stock as is, it's a good architecture with more power and memory than any last gen console and with support for alot of next gen features, doing this with no handycaps/bottlenecks (that help keeping 60 fps stable) and no loadings... It's pretty good if I might add.

 

I think graphics will be good to the point where lot's of developers will feel confortable enough to leave a game running at 60 fps instead of going to push double the polygons at 30 fps.

I think you just put an end to all this ranting, thanks Pedro.

hopefuly

Pedro offers you his protection

VOTE VOR PEDRO:horse:

hehehe thanks