If Wii has more power than an Xbox...

[system_error]

I am sorry but I won't quote everything from you pedrocasilva because I find it annoying - so I just will talk about a few things you mentioned. I hope you don't mind.

 

 

Shaders and DX9: I know the Gamecube could do some impressive shading operations (the Rogue Squadron developers explain it pretty good) but it was more difficult to access them compared to the XBOX which used a standard PC GPU. Yes the API is different but the feature set used in modern games eg. the effects and stuff are similar.

So far I did not see any example (picture) which convinced me of superior shadows, lightning then seen on the Gamecube. So either the possibilites are still limited or not as easy to use as you explained.

 

There are a FEW games on the Wii running on 16:9 and 480p at 60 frames a second. 80% run with 30 frames per second at 4:3 and at standard SD. And the 360 which as you wrote needs a lot more power and a bigger framebuffer but still managed to have the same ratio of 60/30FPS games as the Wii but at 720p and in the future even 1080p.

 

 

 

EDIT: It seems the new IE7 doesn't like me and crashed so I will have to retype a lot of the stuff I previously wrote. Furthermore if you would like to continue "our" discussion - we could talk over ICQ/IRC if would like pedrovasilva.

[Hellfire]

 

 

So far I did not see any example (picture) which convinced me of superior shadows, lightning then seen on the Gamecube.

 

 

This sentece alone made me not read anything else.

[system_error]

This sentece alone made me not read anything else.

 

That would be your faul then - but even Super Mario Galaxy doesn't set new standards when it comes to shadows and lightning - not even MP3 does. Yes the both look very good but not when it comes to shadows and lightning. I am talking about a game like Splinter Cell 3 which is a 2004/05 game. That is what I call superior lightning and shadowing!

[thomaschung]

i don't think any Wii games have graphics worth mentioning. Zelda is the best looking game on the Wii and that is Cube graphics.

 

everything else can look better but probably won't because graphics are not going to be what developers focus on at all. a lot of them seem to be in the belief that because it's the Wii it don't need to look good. I don't think Red Steel looks any better than Cube or xbox games, sure it has a few extra lighting effects.

 

tbh, i think it's going to be the developers who traditionally put a lot into graphics that we see the improvement. Capcom and Sqaure Enix will do it right.

[Hellfire]

Comparing a game that depends on shadows to games that use shadows aesthetically doesn't make much sense.

[system_error]

Comparing a game that depends on shadows to games that use shadows aesthetically doesn't make much sense.

 

No it does not but a poor made shadow like in Galaxy stays a poor made shadow no matter how good the rest of the game is. I just wanted to give an example of how good shadows and lightning can be.

 

Those are Gamecube Shadow and Lightning effects:

 

http://revolutionmedia.ign.com/revolution/image/article/710/710746/super-mario-galaxy-20060531030005599.jpg

[Cookyman]

No it does not but a poor made shadow like in Galaxy stays a poor made shadow no matter how good the rest of the game is. I just wanted to give an example of how good shadows and lightning can be.

 

Those are Gamecube Shadow and Lightning effects:

 

http://revolutionmedia.ign.com/revolution/image/article/710/710746/super-mario-galaxy-20060531030005599.jpg

 

No they are Wii shadows and lighting effects - however you say they are poor - I disagree - mario has cartoony graphics there really is no need for ultra realistic lighting and shadows and thats is why they are less complicated than in other games it suits the theme/style of the game.

[Shino]

I understand people being pessimistic and not believing everything nintendo says, but saying that Mario Galaxy doesn't show some impressive lightning can only be excused with blindness.

[ZeldaFreak]

First rule of developing a game make the technical stuff is sound. Second rule of developing a game make sure creative stuff is sound, i.e winning game.

[Dilli Gee]

Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look that much of an improvement over Super Mario Sunshine, it just a bit more rounded. And widescreen.

[Cookyman]

First rule of developing a game make the technical stuff is sound. Second rule of developing a game make sure creative stuff is sound, i.e winning game.

 

And I guess you made those rules wow - which software company are you chairman of?

 

Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look that much of an improvement over Super Mario Sunshine, it just a bit more rounded. And widescreen.

 

Don't buy it then!

[Dilli Gee]

Don't buy it then!

What I said has no relevance to whether or not I'll buy it.

 

DOA4 for Xbox 360 looked not that much different to the previous game, that didn't mean I didn't buy it.

[Cookyman]

What I said has no relevance to whether or not I'll buy it.

 

DOA4 for Xbox 360 looked not that much different to the previous game, that didn't mean I didn't buy it.

 

Well I think your in the minority on this one - most people including myself are very impressed with the graphics on Mario Galaxy - you are entitled to your opinion of course and I just assumed that you being so underwhelmed with it would imply you not purchasing it.

 

[Shino]

What I said has no relevance to whether or not I'll buy it.

 

DOA4 for Xbox 360 looked not that much different to the previous game, that didn't mean I didn't buy it.

 

So you're just ranting for the sake of it?

[pedrocasilva]

Shaders and DX9: I know the Gamecube could do some impressive shading operations (the Rogue Squadron developers explain it pretty good) but it was more difficult to access them compared to the XBOX which used a standard PC GPU. Yes the API is different but the feature set used in modern games eg. the effects and stuff are similar.

So far I did not see any example (picture) which convinced me of superior shadows, lightning then seen on the Gamecube. So either the possibilites are still limited or not as easy to use as you explained.

Not more dificult... diferent is the word, the thing is, wether or not you've got experience/have learned doing them the Shader Model way (from PC's and Xbox) or not. just copy pasting that into a TEV pipeline won't do the trick.

 

Direct from other thread but:

 

Factor 5 interview:

Planet GameCube: How flexible and useful is Gekko in assisting Flipper with custom lighting and geometry? Are you using this feature? Does it compare to the vertex and pixel shaders on the Xbox's graphics chip?

 

Julian Eggebrecht: Maybe without going into too much detail, we don’t think there is anything visually you could do on X-Box (or PS2) which can’t be done on GameCube. I have read theories on the net about Flipper not being able to do cube-mapped environment maps, fur shading, self-shadowing etc... That’s all plain wrong. Rogue does extensive self-shadowing and both cube-maps and fur shading are not anymore complicated to implement on GameCube than on X-Box. You might be doing it differently, but the results are the same. When I said that X-Box and GameCube are on par power-wise I really meant it.

Source: http://www.planetgamecube.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=1906&CFID=11151805&CFTOKEN=aa2c549f1ef80fd7-7CB32E68-C09F-3E62-05BF68C7F058F7E6

 

He should know. Really... it's not dificult, but maybe Nintendo should offer extra documentation about it, don't know how many they hand up, but looking on how strong is the NDA around flipper, I'd say they don't handle much to smaller publishers.

 

They could also make these "shader implentations" available on the devkit or handed out in paper (if requested). A know case is that Factor 5 handed a document to Capcom's RE4 team on light scattering shading, whom Capcom implemented and improved, maybe this should happen more often judging from RE4 results.

 

As for shadows:

Those softshadows on the ground look better than other games using unreal engine 2.5 by Ubisoft on Xbox, like chaos theory, and bare in mind that unreal engine 2 had a heavily optimized engine Xbox named Unreal Engine 2X(box).

 

there's also a fair amount of lightning coming on his back, it's looking good, this is a game that uses a middleware that doesn't favour the Wii though, it wouldn't be possible on a GC.

There are a FEW games on the Wii running on 16:9 and 480p at 60 frames a second. 80% run with 30 frames per second at 4:3 and at standard SD. And the 360 which as you wrote needs a lot more power and a bigger framebuffer but still managed to have the same ratio of 60/30FPS games as the Wii but at 720p and in the future even 1080p.

If there aren't more with those graphics it's because developers don't want to, or aren't even trying.

 

Wii is not weak in fillrate for it's resolution. And I certainly wouldn't say 80% of them don't run at 60 frames, there's quite a few, also bare in mind that some of the most impressive ones do run at 60 fps at 480p.

 

Xbox 360 doesn't do 1080p though... and never will. It might have a 1080p HDMI conector added on a later revision for HD-DVD, it might upscale games in the process, but never run them in native 1080p. And judging from the 720p till now, with most games running at a fixed 30 fps and some with slowdown and hickups... I'd say developers will be able to pretty much control 720p later on... but won't feel the need to go higher (even if they could).

EDIT: It seems the new IE7 doesn't like me and crashed so I will have to retype a lot of the stuff I previously wrote. Furthermore if you would like to continue "our" discussion - we could talk over ICQ/IRC if would like pedrovasilva.

I have no queries, if you want to, let me know, I don't use ICQ though, I can log onto a irc server though.

That would be your faul then - but even Super Mario Galaxy doesn't set new standards when it comes to shadows and lightning - not even MP3 does. Yes the both look very good but not when it comes to shadows and lightning. I am talking about a game like Splinter Cell 3 which is a 2004/05 game. That is what I call superior lightning and shadowing!

Compare Chaos Theory to red steel then, they use a engine of the same family, and like explained above... the Xbox one was heavily enhanced (the GC wasn't).

No it does not but a poor made shadow like in Galaxy stays a poor made shadow no matter how good the rest of the game is. I just wanted to give an example of how good shadows and lightning can be.

 

Those are Gamecube Shadow and Lightning effects:

 

http://revolutionmedia.ign.com/revolution/image/article/710/710746/super-mario-galaxy-20060531030005599.jpg

I don't think it's a poor shadow to be honest, might be intended that way, I call blocky and not soft edged shadows to be bad, this game has neither.

 

And Spinter Cell Chaos theory mentioned above on Xbox has some blocky shadows.

 

The game looks great and all, but there's techniques being applied for it to look like that, we have to understand that. Wii is way more superior than that.

Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look that much of an improvement over Super Mario Sunshine, it just a bit more rounded. And widescreen.

If you say so...

[thomaschung]

no, you can't say the majority of people are very impressed with the graphics of Super Mario Galaxy.

 

So far I am not sold. There's really not that much to be impressed about, obviously the gameplay and controls will be the deciding factor in this game but there's no denying that it doesn't look all that.

[Cookyman]

no, you can't say the majority of people are very impressed with the graphics of Super Mario Galaxy.

 

I think you'll find I did!

[Hellfire]

Pedro always wins when it comes to hardware discussions.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Pedro always wins when it comes to hardware discussions.

 

Aye, that's cos the guy knows what's talking about. I think many of us would kill for half of the knowledge that he has.

[pedrocasilva]

Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look that much of an improvement over Super Mario Sunshine, it just a bit more rounded. And widescreen.

A bit more rounded can easily mean double the polygons in some cases... Also I remember Sunshine having a lot of slowdown at places, from what I've seen from Galaxy... It never gave me that idea.

 

Also bare in mind that even next gen games on HD consoles have visible polygons, it's not a curse.

no, you can't say the majority of people are very impressed with the graphics of Super Mario Galaxy.

 

So far I am not sold. There's really not that much to be impressed about, obviously the gameplay and controls will be the deciding factor in this game but there's no denying that it doesn't look all that.

I'll just say that Mario Galaxy is a hard title to judge graphically, I'm not agreeing with you though, the game looks good the question is how good, It's hard analise it myself, lightning is mostly great, but I'd need to judge/take into account things like if the debris on the sky is moving, how many planets are on-screen at once, etc...

 

One thing that is impressive nonetheless is not even related to how much he pushes, but how the scenarios are always rendered unique, there's not two equal planets in there, even if they're so much of them, that's time consuming in development work and honestly the diversity looks great, I'm sold.

Pedro always wins when it comes to hardware discussions.

Aye, that's cos the guy knows what's talking about. I think many of us would kill for half of the knowledge that he has.

heh, thanks, you guys flatter me, I always have to make research to aswer these though. :p

[system_error]

Not more dificult... diferent is the word, the thing is, wether or not you've got experience/have learned doing them the Shader Model way (from PC's and Xbox) or not. just copy pasting that into a TEV pipeline won't do the trick.

 

Direct from other thread but:

 

Factor 5 interview:

Source: http://www.planetgamecube.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=1906&CFID=11151805&CFTOKEN=aa2c549f1ef80fd7-7CB32E68-C09F-3E62-05BF68C7F058F7E6

 

He should know. Really... it's not dificult, but maybe Nintendo should offer extra documentation about it, don't know how many they hand up, but looking on how strong is the NDA around flipper, I'd say they don't handle much to smaller publishers.

 

Well Factor 5 had their hands deep in the research and development of the Gamecube so it is really unfair to have them as an example. Well assuming shaders just work different and not more difficult on the Gamecube that would lead to the point that now developers shouldn't have any problems.

 

 

As for shadows:

Those softshadows on the ground look better than other games using unreal engine 2.5 by Ubisoft on Xbox, like chaos theory, and bare in mind that unreal engine 2 had a heavily optimized engine Xbox named Unreal Engine 2X(box).

 

there's also a fair amount of lightning coming on his back, it's looking good, this is a game that uses a middleware that doesn't favour the Wii though, it wouldn't be possible on a GC.If there aren't more with those graphics it's because developers don't want to, or aren't even trying.

 

Well I thought about the PC version of Splinter Cell - because as a 2004/05 game it represents the standards which a next-gen console should achieve without any problems. I believe developers are too lazy and just hit the Wii with mediocre titles because Nintendo doesn't force them and or because developers are not sure if they should allocate so many resources to the Wii. After all the Gamecube came out in 2001 and I gues 5 years later the technology changed drastically - as in the PC sector CPU/GPUs change about every 6 months. So 5 years are 10 cycles of new ideas, clock speed boosts, innovations.

 

 

Xbox 360 doesn't do 1080p though... and never will. It might have a 1080p HDMI conector added on a later revision for HD-DVD, it might upscale games in the process, but never run them in native 1080p. And judging from the 720p till now, with most games running at a fixed 30 fps and some with slowdown and hickups... I'd say developers will be able to pretty much control 720p later on... but won't feel the need to go higher (even if they could).

 

MS will release a software update which will allow playback of 1080p and will also enable a 1080p resolution for games. So you can upscale games but it also supports a native 1080p resolution for new games. So far MS will stick with 720p but third party developers will do 1080p (Source: dreisechzig.net/wp - german MS product manager)

[Hellfire]

I doubt they can fit 1080 textures in those discs and 360 won't handle it.

[system_error]

I doubt they can fit 1080 textures in those discs and 360 won't handle it.

 

2 dual-layer DVDs? HD-DVD for movies and I am quite sure before the next MS console comes out the HD-DVD addon will be used for games aswell. Size is the smalles problem - after all on PC we still use normal DVDs with quite good textures ... and those are not for 640x480 ;-)

[Hellfire]

Using HD DVD for games is horrible, it makes everyone buy it. And yes, the size is the smalled of their problems, power and memory is.

[system_error]

Using HD DVD for games is horrible, it makes everyone buy it. And yes, the size is the smalled of their problems, power and memory is.

 

Indeed it is and a developer has to ask himself wether it is worthy to sacrifice 720p game with stable framerate over 1080p which might have a few framedrops. Also the majority of HD TV owners has just 720p sets - there are not many with a full HD TV yet.

 

 

But 3 cores with 512MB RAM and the Xenos GPU are enough once developers manage to efficiently code for the plattform - same goes for PS3. On the other hand the Wii is single core and a already well known architecture so I don't expect such big leaps in performance when it comes to graphics.