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Dcubed

Epic VS Apple 3 - Fate of Two Worlds

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OK, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is Epic Tim basically saying "Y'all should change how you run your store in a way that benefits you in no way what-so-ever because I think it's a good idea"?

Because if so, he's officially nuts.

Also he starts a business e-mail with "Y'all"? What?

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28 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

OK, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is Epic Tim basically saying "Y'all should change how you run your store in a way that benefits you in no way what-so-ever because I think it's a good idea"?

Because if so, he's officially nuts.

Also he starts a business e-mail with "Y'all"? What?

1) I've had colleagues demand that kind of thing

2) Y'all is a great way to start any communique

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2 hours ago, Glen-i said:

OK, so correct me if I'm wrong, but is Epic Tim basically saying "Y'all should change how you run your store in a way that benefits you in no way what-so-ever because I think it's a good idea"?

Because if so, he's officially nuts.

I think that's been the main criticism behind EGS's lawsuit from the start, yeah... But I never thought he actually pitched the idea directly to Apple in a way that seems so...devoid of argument.

Is that last paragraph a vague hint that they were planning this lawsuit, I wonder?

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While I'm interested in the industry I really don't like reading about some lawsuits. It's all just mumbo jumbo to me :p 
Could someone gimme a quick rundown on what exactly is being argued? What's Epic's goal?

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16 minutes ago, drahkon said:

While I'm interested in the industry I really don't like reading about some lawsuits. It's all just mumbo jumbo to me :p 
Could someone gimme a quick rundown on what exactly is being argued? What's Epic's goal?

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21 minutes ago, drahkon said:

While I'm interested in the industry I really don't like reading about some lawsuits. It's all just mumbo jumbo to me :p 
Could someone gimme a quick rundown on what exactly is being argued? What's Epic's goal?

I may not be the best person to explain, but I'll give it a crack and let others correct any likely mistakes or omissions I make.

First of all, Epic's main goal is to allow their customers to access their own store on ioS (and likely the three main consoles as well)

They'll claim all sorts of reasons for how this will benefit the consumer, but really, that's bull. They just don't want to pay Apple their share of the money made from selling their in-game currency and allow their customers (which are mostly children) to buy said currency as quickly and as easily as possible.

Apple, want things to stay the way they are. They still want their cut of anything sold through their app store.

While reducing the amount of money developers pay to the likes of Apple, Nintendo, etc. could have some benefits. Epic is not the kind of company that I think should ultimately benefit from this. They claim they're fighting for the smaller game developers out there, but Epic is anything but.

What has made this trial really interesting is that it's forced Epic and Apple to reveal a smorgasbord of documents that has given us some insight into the kind of deals that go on behind the scenes.

All of the big 3 console makers are being hit with this sudden clarity. Microsoft have had some of their plans to get XCloud on other consoles exposed. We've had soft confirmation that Epic effectively bullied Nintendo into making Yoshi's Crafted World on Unreal Engine in order to get said engine on the Switch. We also know that Ninty refuses to work with any company that has ties with the Yakuza (lol).

Sony, arguably, have been hit the hardest by this. A lot of their more questionable practices have been brought to light, especially on them forcing fees on developers if cross-play supported games make more money on consoles that are not PlayStation. (We've had confirmation that Microsoft and Ninty do not follow suit)

Naturally, we've also had plenty of e-mails between Apple and Epic. Some of them have been kinda funny. (Apple Tim basically pulled a "New phone, who dis?" on Epic Tim about 5 years ago)

EDIT: @Julius is pretty much spot on. Epic want to basically become the big video game provider. And they want to do so in a way that crushes the big 3 under their vast wealth.

Edited by Glen-i
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3 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Epic want to basically become the big video game provider. And they want to do so in a way that crushes the big 3 under their vast wealth.

Hm, would Microsoft be crushed? Let's say Epic wins, wouldn't that mean MS is able to put xCloud/GamePass on every platform without any hassle and rake in profits?)

Sounds to me that if Epic wins, video gaming will take one step further into a direction that would make me abandon this hobby :( 

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Just now, drahkon said:

Hm, would Microsoft be crushed? Let's say Epic wins, wouldn't that mean MS is able to put xCloud/GamePass on every platform without any hassle and rake in profits?)

Sounds to me that if Epic wins, video gaming will take one step further into a direction that would make me abandon this hobby :( 

That is possible, but Epic would be able to do the same on the XBox itself, which means less profit on Microsoft's part.

It's a slippery slope, there's definitely an argument for lowering these costs to sell games on console storefronts.

My issue is that Epic is trying to get it so that there is no cost. Which just isn't feasible!

Epic is also one of the scummiest companies out there. They're the current poster child of microtransaction exploitation (The judge even called Epic Tim out on this, suggesting he just wants impulse buying to be easier).

It's clear that Epic is chasing this purely because they don't just want most of the money, they want all the money! If they win, it puts the like of Apple, Sony and so on in a weaker position financially. Which is exactly want Epic wants.

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I think there's one workaround for the console manufactures: not allowing games access to parts of the OS. So if Epic sell through their own store, it doesn't have access to the friends list, online, screenshots, achievements and stuff like that. Boxart won't be able to use the branding so physical copies are clear. 

Although if lots of companies focus on their own store, it will make consoles a mess for consumers.

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7 minutes ago, Cube said:

So if Epic sell through their own store, it doesn't have access to the friends list, online, screenshots, achievements and stuff like that.

@Hero-of-Time would have a heart attack!

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31 minutes ago, Glen-i said:

Apple, want things to stay the way they are. They still want their cut of anything sold through their app store.

If I recall correctly there's a similarish thing going on between Apple and Spotify. Apple insist on 30% of subscription costs when a user subscribes through the Spotify app on an Apple device, Spotify claims that's untenable. Can't recall what's happened with that though.

11 minutes ago, Cube said:

I think there's one workaround for the console manufactures: not allowing games access to parts of the OS. So if Epic sell through their own store, it doesn't have access to the friends list, online, screenshots, achievements and stuff like that. Boxart won't be able to use the branding so physical copies are clear. 

Although if lots of companies focus on their own store, it will make consoles a mess for consumers.

Sounds like what's happened with streaming services as every network has slowly got their own.

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@Cube: I think there's one workaround for the console manufactures: not allowing games access to parts of the OS. So if Epic sell through their own store, it doesn't have access to the friends list, online, screenshots, achievements and stuff like that. Boxart won't be able to use the branding so physical copies are clear. 

Although if lots of companies focus on their own store, it will make consoles a mess for consumers.

Ironically, this multi-store approach is apparantly what Nintendo were actually considering for the Wii U... until EA tried to pull a fast one on Nintendo and take over with Origin.

You can still see the ramifications of this planned approach with the very few 3rd party retail games that actually got released for it (almost exclusively at the start of its life).  All of Ubisoft's games utilise the U-Play store for their achievements and stuff; while EA's games all require an Origin login (Can't remember, but I think Activision also had some sort of similar login requirement & achievement tracking with COD Black Ops Wii U).  3rd parties were already inserting their own APIs and store hooks into their Wii U games.

If Epic wins? We'll be getting the planned Wii U concept taken to its logical extreme.

Edited by Dcubed

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Epic just released the Itch.io app on EGS last night... Yes, really.  A store within a store; that they're not taking commissions from.  Now I wonder why they would bother doing something so pointless and stup...

... oh.

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Now that's underhanded.

It's the kind of thing you'd see in Law & Order as some kind of sudden twist that causes the characters to have to adapt and switch up their argument! Except it's real life!

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Although shout out to itch for being the best store front

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Hmmm.... We'll see how long that plays out for until Gamepass reaches critical mass...

Also this...

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Xbox made between $2.2 Billion in profit (unknown if gross or net) throughout 2019 (previously hidden info!).  Tencent's numbers are fucking frightening though!! :shakehead

Edited by Dcubed

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Ms. Wright just needs to get her husband to shout "Objection" and bust out the evidence needed.

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