Julius Posted May 3, 2021 Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) After playing the first entry in the Suikoden series earlier this year, I was surprised to find that the only thread on the forums for the series is from 2005, when the PSP ports of Suikoden and Suikoden II were announced. I'm starting up Suikoden II later today for the first time after finding myself increasingly pulled back towards playing a JRPG, and thought it would be nice to have a space to record my journey with the game as I like doing with other threads, before I eventually get around to a more thoughtful and concise update for the Gaming Diary thread, and would like to get others onboard too to join the discussion, so I'm thinking of updating this post with things like the recruitment guides I use, any tips or tricks I pick up along the way, and so on, for reference if anyone else dives into the series too. I'll update this later with the recruitment guide I used and my notes from my time with the first Suikoden, but for now, it's onto Suikoden II! Alright, without further ado, highlighting the games in the series, some of the names of key staff who worked on them, and I'll add helpful links or information as I make my way through the series for each entry that I can. I'll add the main titles for now and the spin-offs later, when I'll clean this post up a little more. For availability, I am mainly looking at this from an EU perspective, given that most on here are Europeans. Main series titles SUIKODEN Quote Treachery eats at the heart of the Scarlet Moon Empire. But is the Empire corrupt or its people just disloyal? Take the role of a young Imperial Guard in this epic tale of betrayal, greed and honour as he struggles to find the truth. Gather the 108 Stars of Destiny and lead them into battle to free the land from the grip of tyranny. Original release date: December 15th 1995 (JP), December 1996 (NA), April 1997 (EU) Developed by: Konami Computer Entertainment Tokyo Published by: Konami Director: Yoshitaka Murayama Producer: Kazumi Kitaue Designer: Junko Kawano Artist: Junko Kawano Composers: Miki Higashino, Tappy Iwase, Hiroshi Tamawari, Hirofumi Taniguchi, Mayuko Kageshita Most accessible on: PlayStation Network (PSP, PS3, PS Vita) Also available on: PlayStation (note: will cost a small fortune); was also released on the Sega Saturn and Microsoft Windows in Japan Suggested recruitment guide: this one from GameFAQS as it contains minimal story spoilers Spoiler Some things I picked up from my playthrough, I'll probably think of some more, but for onw: Always carry an Escape Talisman (same goes for Suikoden II), as some dungeons won't kick you out back to the start after defeating the boss there/seeing the story beat play out, so it just saves you the hassle. Yes, that one place where you enter a room and walk onto a spinner is purely RNG-based. You could be there for a while. I was there for 20 minutes! Equip the Blinking Mirror, the item that returns you to your castle, to Tir (the player character) and no-one else. This is because characters come and go from your party except for Tir (obviously), so unless you're comfortable with backtracking all the time, it's best to give it to him. SUIKODEN II Quote The Kingdom of Highland enjoys a tense truce with its neighbours. Political alliances have been formed and borders strengthened as the machinations of destiny grind onwards. Embark on a journey of discovery, learn devastating rune magic, control castles and command troops. Live the legend of the 108 Stars of Destiny Original release date: December 17th 1998 (JP), August 31st 1999 (NA), July 28th (EU) Developed by: Konami Computer Entertainment Tokyo Published by: Konami Director: Yoshitaka Murayama Producer: Yoshitaka Murayama Designers: Fumi Ishikawa, Junko Kawano Artist: Fumi Ishikawa Writers: Yoshitaka Murayama, Junko Kawano Composers: Miki Higashino, Keiko Fukami Most accessible on: PlayStation Network (PSP, PS3, PS Vita) Also available on: PlayStation (note: will also cost a small fortune); was also released on Microsoft Windows in China Suggested recruitment guide: this one from Suikosource which I am testing currently in my playthrough; unfortunately I could not find one as concise, detailed, and as spoiler-free as the one from GameFAQS for the first game, and so this does contain some story spoilers Spoiler I would advise trying to recruit as you go along following the guide after major story beats and keeping multiple saves as you go along so that if you do miss a character, you can return to an earlier point. There are a total of 5 characters in Suikoden II which seem to cause the most issues during the recruitment spells in the game, as they are permanently missable. PERMANENTLY MISSABLE #16: Gilbert Gilbert is the first missable character you will come across in the game, coming in fairly front and centre in one of the earlier Army Battles. Recruiting him is relatively simple: just make sure you damage his unit during the battle and he will have a conversation with Flik where he comes to your side during the battle. #37: Clive THIS IS THE ONE I'VE SEEN CAUSE THE MOST ISSUES, AND CAUSED ME ISSUES ON MY PLAYTHROUGH - SO THIS IS THE ONE I URGE YOU TO READ! While he comes in at #37 in the Suikosource recruitment guide, you must take actions much earlier in the game to ensure that he is available for recruitment when you reach #37 on the recruitment list. A few hours into the game you will stay in the city of Muse, and it serves as something as a hub for a few major beats in the story. During your stay, ensure that you walk through the underpass to the north-east of the city, where you should come across Elza who leaves you with some packages. You will see her duel with Clive at the city's entrance, and once you have seen this scene, rest easy knowing that Clive will be recruitable once you visit South Window after riding on a boat for the first time. This also starts Elza's quest line, however this requires a fairly quick run through the game as certain events become inaccessible after you pass certain points in your save time, so I would advise against trying to see this through in your first playthrough. #62 & #63: Futch and Humphrey So long as you follow the recruitment guide and recruit at your earliest opportunities, you shouldn't miss out on these two. Visit Highway Village at your earliest opportunity (follow the south-east path from Matilda) and you will meet Futch and Humphrey in the Inn. Keep talking to them and follow through with the quest which takes you to Mt. Rakutei - not completing this quest while you're in Matilda will mean that you miss out on your opportunity to recruit them, as they only join after the completion of said quest. #113: Genshu To recruit Genshu your castle has to be at Level 4, and you need to have someone with a weapon sharpened to Level 14 before riding the boat to Coronet and speaking to him at the docks there. However, there is a cut-off point to when you can recruit him: your late game return to Greenhill. OTHER NOTES ON RECRUITMENT Be aware that recruits #1 - #115 in the Suikosource guide are the potential recruits for the 108 Stars of Destiny, and that the further 9 recruits from #116 - #124 are either optional, made available as a result of a complete save transfer from Suikoden, or will lead you to an alternative ending as they mean that you won't be able to recruit all 108 Stars. So why are there 115? Well, I might as well just explain why there are 124! The Suikosource guide shows #71 Feather, #73 Siegfried, and #105 Abizboah twice - this is because these characters are large monsters that not only take up two spaces in your party due to their size, but because they also take up two spots as Stars of Destiny (e.g. #71 Feather takes up the Tenman and Tentai spots), and you can only recruit two of them using #68 Badeaux's Listening Crystals (As he only gives you two and there isn't a way to get more). Though this seems like it gives you options, for all 108 Stars, you MUST recruit #71 Feather as recruiting him is the only way to get #70 Ayda; after that you have the choice of recruiting #73 Siegfried or #105 Abizboah. #85 Tomo is mentioned twice as you can only choose one of #77 Kasumi and #78 Valeria to recruit, so Tomo takes up the slot in the 108 Stars of the character you didn't opt to go with. #107 is only recruited if you start seeing out the Bad Ending, so don't worry if you don't come across them (actually, I'd be more concerned if you did!). #116 Jowy and #117 Pilika are never technically recruited in the game and aren't Stars of Destiny, nor are the squirrels #118 - #121. #122 is dependent on you having save data from the final save point in Suikoden. Recruiting #123 make it impossible to recruit all 108 Stars, but they are needed to recruit #124. Of #77 Kasumi and #78 Valeria, while I chose Valeria, my suggestion would be to go with Kasumi. This is because you'll be able to recruit #82 Mondo and #83 Sasuke from Rokkaku at only Castle Level 3 (if you've recruited every character up to that point in the game, that means they'll be available for recruitment immediately), rather than having to wait until you are at Castle Level 4 if you chose Valeria. Speaking of Rokkaku, this is a helpful video to guide you there. Recruit all 108 Stars of Destiny before your late game return to Muse. If you are in the middle of a major story event - even if you've only triggered the start of that story event, likely from accepting to head over to some place after meetings in the castle - then you will be locked out of recruiting characters not related to that story event. Other than the permanently missable characters that I mentioned above, this shouldn't be any reason to worry, and you will be able to return to them after completing that story beat. Don't sweat it! For recruits #68 - #78, leave your castle after the major story events preceding it (this should include recruits #66 and #67 joining you), and then return; you should meet Sheena. This triggers recruits #68 - #78 being made available for recruitment for the first time, so before you progress the story further with Sheena, I suggest going around and recruiting those characters. For recruit #40 Tetsu, the Suikosource guide states that Fried Tacos can be bought in Kobold Village. This is wrong. They are available in the Kobold District of Two Rivers City. Recruit #81 Gordon requires you to make use of the Trading Posts scattered throughout the world, buying and selling items from one location to another to make a profit. You need to earn 50,000 potch of profit from this, so I would suggest reading up on some tips from this GameFAQs post and taking a few notes of what to buy as you make your way through the game. These refresh every 30 minutes or so, so probably the most efficient way to do this if you aren't going to hoard items until you come across Gordon is to save scum the spawns at the Trading Posts like this for the rarer items to be in stock. Spoiler Just a few things I picked up on throughout my journey (can't remember them all right now so I'm sure I'll update this further in the future): You can get away with not paying at an inn and still restoring your health. To do this, talk to the innkeeper, and select 'Rest' - this will bring up the options to 'Save' or 'Don't Save'. Don't do either, and instead press triangle to back out (and then back out of that menu that you return to also). Congrats! Your party is fully healed and you've swindled the lifeblood of this country! On your way to Kyaro early on in the game you will encounter the not-so-adorable, axe-wielding Cut Rabbits. There's a small chance that they will drop Double Beat runes, allowing you to complete physical attacks twice (or in the case of someone like Nanami, who physical attacks twice normally, four times!) , so it might be worth grinding for some, though I got by just fine on one. When first in Muse, save and visit the Rune Shop. A rare item you can find here is the Fury Rune, which inflicts the berserk status on its wielder, boosting a number of stats. As mentioned with the tips on how to recruit Gordon, Rare Finds are RNG based and refresh every 30 minutes, so you can save scum until you've got one, walk around for 30 minutes, then save scum another, and so on. Be aware though that you won't be able to visit for Muse for a while after certain events go down, so if this is something you want to do, hop to at your first chance! SUIKODEN III Quote Three lives from opposing forces in the Grassland War hold the fate of all living things in their hands. Can these three discover the secrets of the Flame Champion, find the True Runes and fulfil their destiny to forever change history? Experience this epic tale from three opposing viewpoints. Original release date: July 11th 2002 (JP), October 24th 2002 (NA), June 23rd 2015 (EU - PSN) Developed by: Konami Computer Entertainment Tokyo Published by: Konami Directors: Yoshitaka Murayama, Keiichi Isobe Producer: Noritada Matsukawa Artist: Fumi Ishikawa Composers: Michiru Yamane, Takashi Yoshida, Masahiko Kimura Most accessible on: PlayStation Network (PS3) Also available on: PlayStation 2 (JP and NA only) Suggested recruitment guide: this one from Suikosource, which I have yet to test myself SUIKODEN IV Quote As a young hero about to graduate from Naval Academy, embark on a journey of discovery as you search for the legendary 108 Stars of Destiny in the adventure of a lifetime. Sail a ship filled with crew members, shops and numerous mini-games. Fight group battles, one-on-one duels and tactical naval warfare. Navigate vast oceans, explore ports and discover beautiful islands. Original release date: August 19th 2004 (JP), January 11th 2004 (NA), February 25th 2005 (EU) Developed by: Konami Computer Entertainment Tokyo Published by: Konami Director: Masayuki Saruta Designer: Junko Kawano Artist: Junko Kawano Composers: Masahiko Kimura, Michiru Yamane, Norikazu Miura Most accessible on: PlayStation Network (PS3) Also available on: PlayStation 2 Suggested recruitment guide: this one from Suikosource, which I have yet to test myself SUIKODEN V Quote In the land of Falena, a prosperous and beautiful country governed by the matriarchy and the benevolent power of the Sun Rune, civil unrest arises and the queen is forced to use the Sun Rune to quell the uprising...but at what cost? Journey as the prince in an expansive quest uncovering the mysteries surrounding the Sun Rune, civil unrest and the dark intent of an unknown power in the greatest Suikoden saga yet! Original release date: Developed by: Konami, Hudson Soft Published by: Konami Director: Takahiro Sakiyama Artist: Kaori Fujita, Kizaki Sub-zero, Mikisato, Riya Hozumi Writer: Kazuyoshi Tsugawa Composers: Yoshihiro Tsukahara, Takashi Watanabe, Kuniyuki Takahashi. Chiharu Mukaiyama Only available on: PlayStation 2 (unfortunately, for whatever reason, this never made its way to PSN) Suggested recruitment guide: this one from Suikosource, which I have yet to test myself Edited June 6, 2021 by Julius 1
Glen-i Posted May 3, 2021 Posted May 3, 2021 I've always wanted to play these games, but they're not readily available on consoles I own... 1
Dcubed Posted May 3, 2021 Posted May 3, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Glen-i said: I've always wanted to play these games, but they're not readily available on consoles I own... I have them all... (Except Suikoden 5 & Tactics) Edited May 3, 2021 by Dcubed 1
Glen-i Posted May 3, 2021 Posted May 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Dcubed said: I have them all... (Except Suikoden 5 & Tactics) Thanks, but it's always the main issue with RPG's you have that I don't. It's hard for me to really commit to RPG's if I can't play them whenever I feel like it.
Julius Posted May 3, 2021 Author Posted May 3, 2021 Unfortunately didn't get to put as much time Suikoden II today as I had originally wanted to, so I'm just creeping up on the 4 hour mark. It would be 5 hours, but to add to the series of unfortunate events, I went into my session today completely unaware about how the PS3's internal memory cards work for emulation of PS1 and PS2 titles, and as I found out an hour in at the first real opportunity to save my journey, I had filled up my existing one between Metal Gear Solid and Suikoden saves. To add insult to injury, you can assign memory card slots and rearrange them quite freely through holding down the PlayStation button, but for whatever reason you can't create a new one from there (I'm sure there's a technical reason I'm not fully aware of, but either way, it sucks when you can do so many other things with the internal memory cards from that position), meaning I had no choice but to quit out of the game to create a new one (meaning I took the opportunity to create a whole bunch of them). Anyways, as for the game itself? It's been nothing short of fantastic so far, holy cow! I have to start by mentioning the opening movie for the game, because calling it epic would be selling it short. It's a masterpiece in itself: Then I started the game after transferring over my Suikoden save data, which doesn't waste any time in getting going, as you are almost immediately pulled into the thick of it. Much of the game since then has been similar, there's no dilly-dallying at all (and there wasn't that much in the first game either) and it moves confidently and quickly from one plot point to the next, all the while not feeling rushed at all. It makes whirlwind moments like getting caught out in an ambush actually feel like a whirlwind, and its easy to get caught up in a moment. The key characters and story have been set up, I've seen some familiar faces from the first game (something which I've been vocal about loving in games before), and despite only being less than 4 hours in, it's completely gripped me. So much has happened in such a short space of time, yet every moment feels like it gets a chance to breathe, and it seriously reminds me of Chrono Trigger in this way. I'm very curious to see if this carries through to the end of the game, but if it does, it's going to take a lot going wrong elsewhere for me to not love this game. Because there is so much that I love about this game so far. Something which has actually had me audibly whisper "wow" to myself on numerous occasions is just how expressive and animated the characters are. Of the games I've played to this point I genuinely think this game blows many other pixel art games out of the water in this regard - and that's including games I love and hold in the highest regard when it comes to this, such as Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger. And the Pokémon Ranger games, weirdly enough, deserves a mention too. For instance, they put in the work to have Riou lean down to grab a rope from the floor, at another point he's crouching over and cleaning the floor, another time a character ties a rope to a rail, a character trips and struggles to get up, there's a hug, and a dog dives onto someone before snuggling up to them. There's also the accuracy and effort of adding "shade" where necessary which goes far beyond what was in the first game, which was minimal at best, often giving rooms a bit of a flat feel in hindsight. It is genuinely some of the best pixel art animation I've seen in a video game from that era, and I doubt I'll shut up about it anytime soon, so rather than continue to list these instances, if you want to see what I mean, just watch the opening credits sequence, backed by a beautiful track called Reminiscence: And it should come as little surprise that with Miki Higashino returning after her work on the first game, which had a soundtrack I absolutely adored, that my love for the music in this series has only intensified. There's Enemy Attack which is as panic-filled and chaotic as you might expect, and the opening of which really reminds me of some Final Fantasy tracks before the crazy woodwind comes in over the top dizzyingly; Days Past, which is about as melancholic and wistful as it could possibly be; the ensemble version of Reminiscence, a slower and strained version which just gnaws away at you; and Beautiful Morning, which initially serves as Nanami's theme before being used elsewhere, which is just incredibly jolly. And speaking of Nanami, despite being so early on in the game, I already feel so attached to these characters, they're just that endearing, and I have to highlight Nanami for being the most animated and funny of the bunch; that track captures her vibe perfectly. As if I couldn't praise this game more than I already have, they seem to have fixed things which I thought got in the way of the first game knocking it out of the park, namely inventory management and NPC's tagging along. In the previous game, as I mentioned in my Gaming Diary entry back in January, each character had a limited number of slots which would quickly fill up with equipment, leaving only one or two slots open for carrying health items. This meant you would have to unload items and reorganise your inventory almost every opportunity you got to back at your headquarters, but in this game, there's a shared inventory you can access outside of battle, which can carry up to 30 items. This is in addition to the slots each party member has (3 for equipment, and a further 3 for whatever you like), so even though you would still only have 48 items to carry between them at any given time as you would in the first game, the organisation of these items is so much easier, and you still have a space to dump items into back at headquarters (though I've yet to give this a go myself, but it looks like there are more options included this time around too). As for NPC's tagging along, in the first game, you might find yourself trudging through a dungeon to save a character who would then have to join your party to make their way back with you, which meant you would have to alter your party formation. That isn't the case here, as they wisely added a 'Convoy' which any characters who are only there to tag along can be placed into, rather than taking up a valuable space in your party formation. My only genuine issue so far is a holdover from the first game where text speed can vary quite a bit, and so double-tapping X to get through the dialogue and view the next line, in instances where you have a choice of dialogue, can result in you accidentally selecting the first option without even realising. Heck, even found a bit of an exploit to sleep at Inns for free completely by mistake! It's rare that a game pulls me in and so plainly makes the case that it's something special this early on, and yet here I am wanting nothing but to book the rest of the week off and be completely consumed by this game. I'll have to see if it lives up to its early promise, as I know there's still plenty to go, but so far so great! 2
Julius Posted May 6, 2021 Author Posted May 6, 2021 Continued my Suikoden II journey the last couple of nights and have now passed the 10 hour mark, having acquired what I imagine will become my castle. I'm absolutely loving it. The pixel art has continued to blow me away, the most recent example was when something got thrown up in the air and fell to the floor, it was brilliant. Something I've also noticed since my last post regarding the "shade" is when you step into little pockets of light, such as light filtering through trees, there's a short but noticeable colour transition for your character from dark to light. It's such a tiny detail which really shows off just how polished this game is, every time I notice something new like this I can't help but grin, just realising how much passion was clearly poured into this game. Couple that with memorable moment after memorable moment, so many wonderful standout scenes, and I seriously struggle to imagine this game somehow fizzing out by the end. It hasn't pulled its punches on being a war story, and is so much stronger for it. I need to highlight some cool events in the story, so I'm popping them in the below spoiler tag: Spoiler I can't believe he's back, that's one hell of a reintroduction! So good. And then we get that awesome slow vertical pan and just get to see the guy floating as he chills with his organ: Hoo boy. And that scene where he brings Daisy back to toy with Viktor, great stuff. Something that I mentioned last time was the storage, and yeah, it has started to become an issue again. While it's still much easier to manage, I haven't seen a storage space for my items (such as the one in a base) for a good 5+ hours at this point, and so have been lugging around a full inventory, but I imagine that will change within the next hour or so. While yes, you can abandon items if you find something else you want instead, it's a bit of a pain to have that message asking whether you want to keep an item or not pop up every single time, and it's meant replacing gear with slightly better gear but not being able to build it up, which I felt was important to an extent in the first game, just considering how many characters you'll probably want to kit out. However, something I really do like, and which has made this somewhat manageable, is that when you buy items from stores you can either place them in your bag (shared inventory) or equip them directly to party members. If you're replacing an already equipped item with your purchased item, for example better headgear, then you get the option to either place that item in your bag or sell it immediately to the shopkeeper if you don't want it taking up valuable space. Little touches like these make some of the systems in the first game seem archaic by comparison! Also helps that I'm completely flush with potch without even trying Having a lot of fun with the battles too. Attached the Double Beat rune - which allows a character to double their number of attempted hits in a standard attack - to Nanami, who already hit twice before, so is attempting to attack four times I thought of attempting to stack it (not sure if it works), but figured the other one might be better off shoring up another party member. But speaking of battles, I've got to share one of my favourite Unite attack animations so far: Riou and Nanami's Family Attack (the one below is a rare one where Nanami also gets to recover some health). Also, this wouldn't be without one of my posts without mentioning music, so here's some more excellent music: Radat Theme, White Deer Inn Theme, Coronet Theme, the returning Moonlit Night Theme, and Dandy Richmond - one hell of a theme for a private eye, that's for sure! Plenty of returning faces, but the new characters feel just as strong, and there's so much connective tissue which makes it all feel so natural. There is something I want to touch upon after having recently visited South Window and Radat, it's speculation more than anything, but it definitely belongs in a spoiler tag: Spoiler Okay, so there's an inn called the Toran Inn in South Window, and the Toran Republic was where the first game took place. There have been increasing mentions of it too, such as in Radat, where we learn that Toran is connected by a river to the south. Not to mention a hell of a lot of returning faces from the first game. Are they going to pull a Pokémon Gold & Silver and allow us to visit Toran? Bigger question: are we going to get to see Tir?! Continuing to have a great time with it, already looking forward to my next session 1 1
Julius Posted May 8, 2021 Author Posted May 8, 2021 (edited) I've been loving my time with Suikoden II up until now, but the recruitment guide I'm using - the one from Suikosource - has managed to make me miss the only missable recruitable character in the entire game. Basically it's stuck him in at a point in the guide where you recruit him, but fails to mention that there's a cutscene you have to trigger 20+ recruits before. Edging towards 13 hours in, looking to recruit #37, it says "Speak to ______ in [city we left a while ago in the story]." Uh-oh. Maybe I triggered that cutscene in that alleyway without realising? I go to the place to recruit #37 and he's not there, so yeah, I missed that cutscene. Yeah, I've been keeping saves from each session...but this has just taken me back to the 6 hour mark. I've down a few dungeons since then, recruited 36 characters in total, and now I'm back down to 10. It's extremely frustrating, especially seeing as I've been loving the game so much, but this is the second time I've had to go back (to be fair, the first time was kind of my own fault due to the memory card situation, but still). Guess I'm just lowering the volume and sticking on some podcasts as I rush through back to where I was, recruiting everyone again. I was seriously considering just playing something else for a moment as I went back through save by save attempting to trigger that cutscene, and it was on my earliest one that I was able to trigger it. Gosh dang it Suikoden II. I had my castle, I just got a boat, you've been killing it. And then this happens. I'll update the original post with this info, hope it doesn't happen to anyone else. It's been a good guide otherwise, but it seriously should have had a note under the 10th character saying to trigger that cutscene when you got to that city, rather than squeezing it in and being like "hey, you did trigger that cutscene, right?". Edited May 9, 2021 by Julius 1
Hero-of-Time Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 Sorry to hear that, @Julius. I hate missable things in games, especially long ones. Sadly, it seems to be a regular occurrence in JRPGs. Things like missable weapons, bosses and characters are often part of the genre and so you are often forced to use a guide in order to get everything you’re after. 1
Glen-i Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said: Sorry to hear that, @Julius. I hate missable things in games, especially long ones. Sadly, it seems to be a regular occurrence in JRPGs. Things like missable weapons, bosses and characters are often part of the genre and so you are often forced to use a guide in order to get everything you’re after. *Glares angrily at Final Fantasy IX* 3
Hero-of-Time Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 4 minutes ago, Glen-i said: *Glares angrily at Final Fantasy IX* Yeah, some of the stuff in that game is ridiculous. Having to essentially speed run through the game to get a weapon....who thought that was a good idea?
Julius Posted May 9, 2021 Author Posted May 9, 2021 30 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said: Sorry to hear that, @Julius. I hate missable things in games, especially long ones. Sadly, it seems to be a regular occurrence in JRPGs. Things like missable weapons, bosses and characters are often part of the genre and so you are often forced to use a guide in order to get everything you’re after. Yeah, it sucks. I'm not even exaggerating when I say that I had to go back to what was my earliest save! And even after triggering the cutscene I was questioning if I'd seen it...but thankfully I've since got to the city where I'll eventually recruit him, now I just need to wait to get my boat (again). I put an hour or so into getting caught up last night as soon as I figured out what I'd done, and don't think it will take me too long to get back to where I was at in the story. Knowing where to go, setting text speed to Fast, not speaking to every NPC, setting my team's runes up earlier than I did before (Nanami + Double-Beat is OP and I love it)...I'm kind of surprised how quickly you'd get through this game if you were to speedrun it. I've definitely been smelling the roses and talking to everyone (as you should, there's some great flavour text in this game!). I think this does give me a pretty clear idea of what I want out of Eiyuden Chronicle, though: no missable characters (having several opportunities to recruit in different locations and points in the game, as is the case in Suikoden and Suikoden II, I think is fine, so long as their levels scale up nicely!), and a better way to track where you are with each recruit. That private eye I mentioned before, Richmond, can actually be paid to learn secrets about your friends/recruits, which is a lot of fun, but more importantly can be used to gather info on potential recruits, such as where they are and how to recruit them. Unfortunately the process isn't that quick, so it could take a while to get them, so what I think might be better in Eiyuden is if your character keeps some sort of recruitment book which gets filled out as you speak to NPC's in the game and learn more about potential recruits, such as what they look like, where they can be recruited, etc. These are things we're going to be doing in a JRPG anyways, so it would feel like a natural and rewarding way to end up with a complete army without needing to resort to a guide. It's tough, because the recruitment is so integral to the story in Suikoden, and it's genuinely great seeing your castle fill up. But realising you've lost a lot of progress because of the guide you're using can definitely sting 18 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said: Yeah, some of the stuff in that game is ridiculous. Having to essentially speed run through the game to get a weapon....who thought that was a good idea? On the topic of speedruns, while figuring out where I went wrong with recruit #37, it turns out that there's an entire missable quest line revolving around him which depends on how quickly you get through the game. You need to get to a certain point within 20 hours, which I doubt you're doing on a first playthrough as you take in the sights and talk to everyone. It doesn't need to be done for a recruit (thankfully), so I'll probably just look it up on YouTube, but yeah... ...what was up with some of those SNES and PS1 JRPG's?! Also some pretty obtuse ones which could be easily missed in the heat of the moment (*cough* FF VI *cough*).
Glen-i Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Julius said: ...what was up with some of those SNES and PS1 JRPG's?! Also some pretty obtuse ones which could be easily missed in the heat of the moment (*cough* FF VI *cough*). Simply put, it was the era of strategy guides. They were good money back then, so a lot of RPG's had basically impossible hidden goodies that necessitated their use. FFVI was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. Apart from the one obvious example (which is bad and wrong and bad), all of the intricately hidden stuff are items and equipment that you could easily find later on in the game. So it wasn't too bad. But as the PS1 era progressed, Final Fantasy started taking more and more liberties with it's secrets, hiding a lot more things that you'd never find again. It kinda all came to a ridiculous plateau with FFX and it's insane requirements for endgame equipment. No-one's figuring out that you need to dodge 200 lightning bolts in a row, in fact, no-one's doing that even if they know beforehand! Luckily, with the rise of the internet, these silly secrets are much less common these days. Edited May 9, 2021 by Glen-i 1 1
Julius Posted May 9, 2021 Author Posted May 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, Glen-i said: Simply put, it was the era of strategy guides. They were good money back then, so a lot of RPG's had basically impossible hidden goodies that necessitated their use. FFVI was definitely on the lower end of the spectrum. Apart from the one obvious example (which is bad and wrong and bad), all of the intricately hidden stuff are items and equipment that you could easily find later on in the game. So it wasn't too bad. But as the PS1 era progressed, Final Fantasy started taking more and more liberties with it's secrets, hiding a lot more things that you'd never find again. It kinda all came to a ridiculous plateau with FFX and it's insane requirements for endgame equipment. No-one's figuring out that you need to dodge 200 lightning bolts in a row, in fact, no-one's doing that even if they know beforehand! Luckily, with the rise of the internet, these silly secrets are much less common these days. Oh yeah, for sure. And then you hear about games like Earthbound where it essentially came with a guide to some of it's more confusing mechanics, and I can understand why many of these games end up being cult classics rather than big hits. I was listening to a podcast the other day about how Final Fantasy XI is practically impossible to return to now without a guide, which is even more silly considering how it's an MMO and would have been in a position many of these others game wouldn't have been where it could get patches and updates. I don't really mind it in a lot of games, I'd heard about some of the stuff in VI and IX ahead of time so had a rough idea of what to do in certain situations without having things outright spoiled for me. Missing rare items, weapons, and secret bosses isn't too big a deal for me as someone who is coming to many of these games for the first time, but knowing how integral finding and recruiting all 108 Stars of Destiny was to capping off my experience with Suikoden with the much better (and canon) ending, it's something I knew I'd have to do for Suikoden II as well. At least it's better these days for the most part. I'm all for secrets in games, and to be honest I don't mind returning to older games and having to look something up like this on the odd occasion as it adds to it a bit, but the more obstacles you put in the way of uncovering those secrets these days, the more and more likely it is that you're going to put off the potential for a wider audience. Then again, the same can also be said for some trophies/achievements, so maybe to an extent that stuff still persists, it's just in a way where it isn't likely to impact the average player's experience?
Hero-of-Time Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 42 minutes ago, Glen-i said: It kinda all came to a ridiculous plateau with FFX and it's insane requirements for endgame equipment. No-one's figuring out that you need to dodge 200 lightning bolts in a row, in fact, no-one's doing that even if they know beforehand! In all fairness, at least that wasn’t missable and was actually one of the least annoying things that needed to be done to get end game stuff and the platinum. 26 minutes ago, Julius said: Then again, the same can also be said for some trophies/achievements, so maybe to an extent that stuff still persists, it's just in a way where it isn't likely to impact the average player's experience? Oh, it definitely persists, especially where achievements and trophies are concerned. JRPGs are notorious in the trophy/achievement communities for being pains in the backside when it comes to 100% completition and missables. Series like Star Ocean and Tales of... are two of the biggest offenders. I remember playing Blue Dragon on the 360 back in the day (fantastic game) and that required you to find every single treasure chest in the game, with some being missable. You needed a guide for that otherwise you weren’t getting that achievement. I think Lost Odyssey had some stupid ones as well. 1
Glen-i Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Julius said: Oh yeah, for sure. And then you hear about games like Earthbound where it essentially came with a guide to some of it's more confusing mechanics, and I can understand why many of these games end up being cult classics rather than big hits. Actually, Earthbound is an interesting case, Nintendo of America went real hard on the PR for that game because they thought it needed all the help it could get. Ironically enough, they did so in such a way that it would end up making the game more unappealing and it ended up flopping. The "This game stinks" campaign was such a weird way of advertising Earthbound. If you played the game, you'd soon realise that it all revolved around just 1 boss. And it's not even that important of a boss. NoA were desperate to paint the game as some kind of gross-out comedy, and it's not really that kind of game. It's more absurdist in it's humour. I can't imagine Shigesato Itoi was happy about that. 5 minutes ago, Hero-of-Time said: In all fairness, at least that wasn’t missable and was actually one of the least annoying things that needed to be done to get end game stuff and the platinum. I knew you'd do that. I wrote that post knowing full well that "HoT is gonna come in here and show off an achievement" Also, kinda proving my point there with only 16% of people bothering with that. All according to plan! Edited May 9, 2021 by Glen-i 1 1 1 1
Hero-of-Time Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Glen-i said: Also, kinda proving my point there with only 16% of people bothering with that. All according to plan! That 16% is 43,630 players who track their trophies. That’s quite a significant amount of people who bothered with it. 1
Jonnas Posted May 9, 2021 Posted May 9, 2021 Stuff like the "Speedrun" item in FFIX isn't a big deal for me, such things are a bonus in a game that didn't really consider it part of a "completionist" run (and really, that item isn't needed nor vitally useful for anything other than bragging rights. It's an easter egg, even the accompanying dialogue is a reference to FFV). It's when you make, say for example, the important item that unlocks Tier 3 magic (in a game with 4 tiers) potentially missable that I wonder what were the devs smoking. Stuff like that isolated chest in the Village of Dali is also annoying beyond belief. By the way, 16% is pretty significant, actually. Usually, the trophy/achievement for any given "finished the game!" tends to track at 50-60% for long games like that. Definitely higher than I would've expected for that one infamous sidequest. ... I got nothing on Suikoden. That's a series that I never crossed paths with. All I know about it is that there's a ton of playable characters, and there's a villain somewhere in there called Luca Blight. 1 1
Julius Posted May 9, 2021 Author Posted May 9, 2021 Well, that didn't take too long! Back up to 9.5 hours of progress and have all 36 characters that I did before - having seen the cutscene I needed for the 37th - even stumbling across some rare items I didn't get the chance to go back for in one of the dungeons on my previous save. Think that says a lot about smelling the roses and talking to NPC's in JRPG's, but I love it, text speed is back down to Normal There's a weird silver lining to this, in that I found myself wanting to pay attention during cutscenes, despite having already seen them. Some of the character interactions, animations, and story beats are absolutely top tier. Speaking of which... Spoiler I don't know how I forgot to mention it before, but I love Praise Be To My Master. Excellent stuff. Also forgot to mention how fun Kahn was as a character, having a vampire hunter from a line of vampire hunters (a Castlevania nod?) in the Marley family is good fun, and he is so ridiculously OP in the fight against that multiple-headed, freaky spider-looking thing. The animations were really something else with his rune magic! And then one of my favourite cutscenes so far... Spoiler ...the story of Genkaku. An Old Story is the name of the track, and boy is that one hell of a track. It's so richly textured and melancholic. And then there's Heart-Softening and Heart-Softening BGM2. This game's music is seriously something else. Glad to be back to where I was, going to take a short break, sort out my runes and equipment, then venture forth 1
Julius Posted May 10, 2021 Author Posted May 10, 2021 I ended up putting quite a lot of time into the game today, and have now passed the 15 hour mark and recruited 60 characters. Want to quickly shout out some things I keep forgetting to: the funny quack noise when you try to select something in a menu that you can't (e.g. trying to buy something but not having enough Potch), the animation for your character clambering over a ledge to go up or down a ladder, and the subtle humour in these games. Just out of the blue something funny will happen and I'll be so caught off guard that I end up laughing hysterically. A lot of the time it's being in an intense moment and having a really funny dialogue option Today it was... Spoiler ...regarding the recruitment of Hix and Tengaar, popping back up after the first game. Hix is reluctantly on his journey to manhood, Tengaar as always is pushing him on, and they end up in Kobold Village for Hix to take on the test of the Unicorn, an old traditional test which Tengaar keeps bringing up. She feigns being ill, so we get sent on a fetch quest with Hix, to pick up a Blue Stone, Red Flower, and Green Bell. What makes it so darn funny? Well, the test hasn't existed forever, so whenever you arrive at the location to get an item, there'll be a Kobold around. For the Blue Stone it was just one of them sprinting out of a shop, but for the Red Flower, he slowly backed out of a cave after planting it there, sees us, has a sigh emote appear above his head, and you can feel his head lowering down as he slowly walks off before breaking into a sprint. But the Green Bell, which you can see later in that video, is the funniest of them all. Working your way for a sewer when you catch the Kobold in the act of planting the Green Bell, he just stares at you around the corner for a moment before dropping the bell. The timing on these is so funny! Other than that, the story has started twisting and turning a bit more, and there are certainly one or two moments where it felt like the game was dropping a mic, and I genuinely didn't see something coming which had me stunned and very excited to see where things go. Something else I wanted to mention was how great the world is with contextualising so much. By the way, I'm throwing a lot of these things in spoiler tags mainly because I think it's something best appreciated if/when you play the game for yourself, even for something like this where it doesn't spoil the plot of the game. So, here's the spoiler tag Spoiler I cannot understate how much I appreciate there being a university city, Greenhill, which focuses on training people to take up this world's professions, with people coming from all over the world to study there. Runemasters, historians, blacksmiths, and appraisers! Also loved how the game forces you to mix up your party by having you only have younger party members, keeps things interesting, and they catch up to your level at such a decent clip that you really could take anyone. Obligatory music mentions: Heart-Softening BGM3, which feels extremely pained and sorrowful; Lakewest's theme, Carried on Rippling Waves (a delightful and light take on the main theme); the excellently named Kobold settlement theme, We are Number Wuff!, which is dizzyingly playful; the theme of the Wingers Den; and Greenhill's theme, which at times reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy IX. At this rate I think I might end up with a Chrono Trigger situation where I end up losing most, if not all, of the tracks, the soundtrack is just that strong on every front. Cannot wait to continue playing tomorrow!
Julius Posted May 18, 2021 Author Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) I swear this game wants me to fall out with it. Beat what is by far the longest boss fight in the game to this point? Game crashes to a black screen. Progress continues to be made, albeit quite slowly compared to how I normally get through games at a steady clip, as I just wasn't in the mood for a lot of things at the start of last week, and then had a fever that stayed until Sunday I played it on Saturday when I first got to that aforementioned long boss battle, and feeling under the weather and it being quite late, I didn't prepare properly at all, so it ended up being a nice show of what I would be up against as that boss stomped my unprepared party as I ended up scouting their overpowered moveset. Which made taking the time to prepare for it and then getting through with relative ease feel so, so good the second time when it didn't crash, I mean! Although I also learned that I missed out on one of the rarest (and most helpful) items in the game after having to go back to an earlier save and speed through as I mentioned last week, which I know I picked up on that first run, which sucked. Anyways, game is still kicking ass, story continues to have its hooks in me firmly as I'm entering the final act, and it still feels like there's plenty to left to play out. I'm aiming to chip away at it through the week, so hopefully see credits by the end of the coming weekend. There's a lot I've been taking notes on, especially with how messy and vague the recruitment guide has got, but 25+ hours and 80+ recruits in, I've only just picked up on the fact that you don't need to have someone in your party when at a shop to equip them with new gear, runes, etc., which I only noticed because there would occasionally be an additional name at the bottom, but I thought that it was either a bug or to do with having someone in your convoy. Turns out I somehow missed the arrow which goes over to another screen for you to view the rest of your recruits! Anyways, some noteworthy stuff to add in a spoiler tag: Spoiler THEY DID THE THING! After teasing it for so much of the game, we got to go to the Toran Republic, albeit to a very limited extent, and only to Gregminster. However, it's insane just how much a simple visit to Gregminster fleshes out the world, seeing old faces and learning what's happened since. The highlight for me was definitely seeing Valeria and Kasumi again, though only getting to choose one just wasn't right! And also Lepant openly acknowledging that Tir should be the one on the throne. And then walking around Gregminster, that theme being back, bridging the gap to the first game through conversations with NPC's, and seeing familiar faces like Cleo in the McDohl mansion, not to mention that painting of Ted in his old room! Wonder if he'll show up at some point? A Song in Praise of Peace, the Gregminster palace theme in this game, is great. It starts off very heavily set and militaristic, but then quickly transitions into a peaceful rendition of the main theme. It clearly states everything Toran went through in the first game and makes it clear that now is a time of peace. Also the battle music from the first game returning, re-recorded, as Confrontation with Monsters, Again in the forest path leading to the Toran border put a massive smile on my face. Sounded much more crisp than in the first game, that's for sure, and the extra flourishes here and there don't hurt! Also that battle with Luca was epic, finally a human villain in a JRPG who proves their strength endlessly. He's extremely overpowered, takes three units to take down after taking arrows to the chest and back, and still has it in him to challenge you to a one-on-one duel and screams with a thirst for blood. His battle theme, The Chase, is also kickass, carries a Final Fantasy style to me with some extra flourishes which make it clearly a Suikoden track. Unfortunately I can't seem to locate the track from the duel, though. (EDIT: found it, it's called Mad Luca). Very much intrigued to see where this goes. I'm not sure what Jowy's up to now he's clearly not after peace. He has Jillia (which we saw in childhood flashbacks, are they somehow linked?) but she seems wary of him, so I wonder what his true intentions are here. I'm thinking maybe he saw something at that shrine in Toto that we didn't, or it's his rune that's leading him astray. Pilika getting her voice back was crushing. Either way, Neclord and Tinto next, exciting stuff! Still loving it, look forward to seeing how this last act plays out. Soundtrack continues to be insanely good, think it's in contention for being one of my favourites. That second overworld theme captures the sense of adventure wonderfully, and I swear I've probably listed upwards of two thirds of the tracks so far in my notes! Edited May 25, 2021 by Julius 1 2
Julius Posted May 23, 2021 Author Posted May 23, 2021 (edited) Finished Suikoden II yesterday with over 35 hours on the clock, though I'm sure that'd be closer to 30 if not for how much fun I started to have with some of the castle mini-games. Spent a few hours just waiting for the next cooking contests to unlock I want to let it sit a while, and I want to make a concerted effort to write something worth reading about the game, but I will say that I loved it. A whole lot. It builds on the foundations of the first game wonderfully (mechanically and in terms of its story), it is very much a sequel (so do not think you can skip the first game and go straight to the second!), and though it does tend to trip over itself once or twice, it's a brilliant game. The fact that you can do everything right and still accidentally pick the wrong dialogue option for the best ending left me a little annoyed, though I just went back to my save a moment before and watched that scene instead after watching the other "good" ending, and, well, the ending I saw is infinitely better than the other one. But there's a whole lot for me to say that I need to think about some more, but I'm glad that despite the game seemingly not wanting me to see it through, that I've managed to get there in the end. Very much looking forward to writing something up for it and digging into Suikoden III at some point in the future! And yeah, got a lot of notes to sift through to add to the original post with tips and especially regarding the Suikosource guide for the 108 Stars of Destiny, because boy did that thing turn out to be a bit of a thorn in my side, but unfortunately there don't seem to be any guides on the same level as the GameFAQs that I found for the first game. Going to throw some of my notes on music (swear I'm literally listing most of the soundtrack at this point...) and the latter stages of the story into a spoiler tag: Spoiler - the theme for Tigermouth/Crom/Tinto, Withered Earth, is wonderful. It's so energetic but decidedly different to other town themes in the instruments used (and the clapping!), and does a great job of encapsulating a different corner of Dunan. - animations in this game are up there with my absolute favourite sprite work, such as in Chrono Trigger and the Pokémon Ranger games. The fact that there were unique animations being shown for the first time in the ending credits sequence is INSANE! I cannot overstate how strong the animation work in this game is. Other favourites are Karen throwing off her clothes to reveal her dance outfit on the stage in your castle, and Nanami as ever not knowing exactly what to do with her hands and then when certain characters hold others... amazing sprite work - adversely, for a late PS1 game, the sparce use of FMV's throughout for special moments did an amazing job of fleshing out the world. Seeing smoe of those Lv 4 spell FMV's for the first time...damn, caught me off-guard and really highlighted the importance of the moments that those came in. - there were certainly a few moments in the game where some of the pixel art, specifically in one or two late dungeons, made it a little confusing about what to do next. There was one instance where I walked into a room and need to push a box between platforms, which should be simple enough, but the issue was that the gap between those platforms looked like a rock outcropping just as much as it did a gap to push a box into. Got there in the end, but wasn't the only time it happened! - audio bugs galore in this game after using certain spells in battles, especially in boss battles I found? Sometimes they can be brief, but other times it can go on throughout the rest of the battle. I used Silent Lake vs Neclord in Tinto which had this high pitched beep completely taking away from the music, which was a shame, as it was one of my favourite tracks in the entire game. - speaking of bugs, boy did that frame rate randomly drop at times. You could tell when dialogue sputtered out into text boxes, and it doesn't help that going up and down some stairways moves the camera in such a way that it looks like it's dropping too. - speaking of the Neclord battle, yeah, Gothic Neclord is freaking superb. Bit of a shame that his battle wasn't nearly as tough as the one in the first game, but the music makes up for it! Worth noting that I shouldn't have used my most powerful spells on his Stone Golem, as there was nowhere (that I could find) to restore my slots after that point. - the liberated Greenhill theme, Greenhill Theme 2, takes a lot from the main theme and your castle but subverts it and makes it this cosy track full of childlike whimsy. - the Rokkaku theme, Secret Village of the Ninja, might be one of my favourite town soundtracks in a video game...period. Lulling you with what I'm guessing is a xylophone (seems a bit too pronounced to be a marimba?) into this dreamlike state, the flute coming out and carrying this ethereal melody, before the female vocals come in and demand your attention. Damn I love it so much! - they did the thing and brought back Tir and Gremio and I love them for it. Not only that, but their sidequest was pretty fun, and I loved their interactions back with Pahn, Cleo and the others in Gregminster. Gremio's Special Stew, which plays in the McDohl mansion after that quest, is the right balance of regal and authentic nostalgia. Another one of my favourites on the soundtrack. - the cooking contest animations are, well, so animated and full of life! It's incredibly charming. The music for this mini-game alone is ridiculously good. The playful, retro-sounding Cooking Choices; Bright Curtains, the Cooking Duel sounds like it could be a world map theme, it is insanely strong; and, last but not least, One Minute Showdown brings with it the playful, repetitive, retro style of Cooking Choices but then breaks into a classical sounding melody before everything starts speeding up like crazy and we just about avoid breaking out into the Can Can! - boy that last dungeon really just wants you to be rich, huh? After a couple of battles I was at max potch and couldn't take anymore with me! - Gorudo was a slimy bastard and deserved to get wrecked. - Final Battle Theme, which plays during your battle with the Beast Rune incarnation, feels like a desperate, vengeful attempt from Luca to bring you down from beyond the grave. That his/Highland's theme, The Evil One, returns in this is excellent. - Chant, the Latin Druid chant from after your battle against Jowy for the best ending...damn, seriously wasn't expecting a male choir to turn up. The lyric translations for this song is very heavy. - Orizzonte, sung by Annallee, Alberto and Pico in your castle, is a wonderful song over the main theme. - We Will Always Be might be one my favourite musical finales in any medium, listening to it as you read through the destinies of the 108 Stars. The militaristic repetition of the percussion before the main theme comes in over the top, the winding melody laced over that. Then you get a new rendition of Heart Softening Theme 3 come in and tear your heart out, this time with a choir, before they come out belting with the piano over the top which tears your heart out a bit, before it turns into something of a victorious fanfare. Then it goes back to the series' main theme. Absolutely wonderful. Edited May 23, 2021 by Julius 1
Julius Posted June 6, 2021 Author Posted June 6, 2021 Finally got around to sitting down and going through my notes on the game, so I've added general tips and notes on the recruitment guide (which can get confusing at times), including some info on permanently missable characters, to the first post. I've also added a few for Suikoden too, but I'm sure I'm forgetting some for both, so will likely end up adding more to those in the future (such as canon name options, etc.). A couple of weeks have passed and I'm still listening to the soundtrack a whole lot and thinking back fondly on my time with Suikoden II. I'm not sure if I'll get to Suikoden III anytime soon, mainly because there are some other chunky JRPG's I want to get to first, but I'm also not even sure if it'll be the next Suikoden game that I play! While it never releasing in the west means I'll have to depend on fan translations, and I won't be able to transfer data from Suikoden II which is a massive shame, I think I'm going to find a way to play both volumes of Genso Suikogaiden (which runs concurrently with Suikoden II, and also sets up III), a set of visual novels written by Murayama and with some music composed by Miki Higashino (making this truly her last work on the series) released in 1999 and 2001 in Japan for the first PlayStation. Think I'll probably track down a PlayStation Classic to add them too to be honest!
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