Fertility Plummeting In Western Males

[Grazza]

I've tried to bring up this subject before and know I don't exactly have a lot of allies on the matter, but it's important.  Arguably the most important subject of the moment.

 

A new study by the Human Reproduction Update has found that sperm count in men from North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand has fallen by 59.3% from 1973 to 2011.  Men in Africa, Asia and South America appear not to have been affected.

 

Now although this obviously has implications for reproduction and population, to me that is not the only issue.  I feel strongly that men have become increasingly feminine.  Whilst I am not having a go at effeminate men, or men who like doing traditionally "women's" things, it's a matter of health.  We are all being forced to become more feminine whether we like it or not.  But men need to be masculine.  High testosterone is part of our health, and it's not being taken seriously enough.

 

I know N-Europe can't solve the problem, but I'm posting this is in the desperate hope of raising awareness.  As a society we need to find the true cause of this, whether it's chemicals, radiation or hormones in the environment and eradicate it.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4729116/Western-lifestyle-making-men-infertile.html

[Goafer]

I get 5 o clock shadow at 4 and last time I ejaculated, I'm fairly sure it growled at me. I think I'm manly enough.

[Julius]

I read this yesterday on the BBC @Grazza, and it has me thoroughly concerned too. 

Like it or not, I think humanity's beginning to fall victim to its own designs, whether that be in societal structuring, power- and money-hungry ideologies that we all "need" more and more (which is ingrained in our minds by the media - just to make a quick point, Samsung spent more on advertising than Norway's population earned working back in 2012, and I can only hazard a guess that it's got even worse) or the belief that our mindset is all that matters, instead accepting solipsism as the way the world is as opposed to accepting that we, as a species, fail to address a lot of the problems we come across in our day-to-day lives and resort to escapism; it's no coincidence that the film and video game industries are at an all-time high (in almost any metric you can find, whether it be numbers of games sold, distributor revenues, or anything else) in a world filled with stressed and confused inhabitants who are beginning to fail at fulfilling our roles for society rather than in society; a good education and jobs, and the stress that comes with them, is wearing our species thin.

Whilst terrorism and war fill the news and we are made aware of such cruel actions against one another, I think we forget to be mindful and spend time looking inwards: the onslaught of advertising; the constant stream of news; it's a bombardment of the mind which is damaging the human psyche as a whole, and I think we'll see it talked about for a while to come before - eventually - we acknowledge and act upon the knowledge that we weren't designed (whether you think that be by a God/gods or by evolution, or even a fair share of both) to live the lives we current find ourselves living. 

This was a very important topic to bring up, so I'm glad you decided to start the conversation, @Grazza (with the way things our going I feel that a "Serious Talk: Big Issues" thread will come about sooner or later). Humans face more challenges in a day today than we did some 10,000 years ago in a week - perhaps even in a month - and I think we stand to learn from, and, I pray, overcome the current climate of living; many might say that this is simply another apocalyptic scenario being thrown out there, but, like with global warming, the warning signs have been in place for decades now (hence the article) and yet we still won't see much in the ways of action regarding this matter by those better positioned to do so than ourselves. 

 

[Daft]

57 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Now although this obviously has implications for reproduction and population, to me that is not the only issue.  I feel strongly that men have become increasingly feminine.  Whilst I am not having a go at effeminate men, or men who like doing traditionally "women's" things, it's a matter of health.  We are all being forced to become more feminine whether we like it or not.  But men need to be masculine.  High testosterone is part of our health, and it's not being taken seriously enough.

Masc 4 masc.

[Rummy]

Guys you may disagree on finer points on this issue - but everyone is entitled to their opinions. As long as you conduct yourself with respect towards your fellow members then all is fine.

 

Personally I don't think the idea of 'acting' less masculine has a knock on on this - I'm fairly comfortable with my maleness yet often don't act particularly masculine. I don't know if that's going to affect my ability to have kids - but judging from my heritage and 21 siblings to my mother and father alone that I'm hopefully going to be fine

[Grazza]

11 minutes ago, Julius Caesar said:

This was a very important topic to bring up, so I'm glad you decided to start the conversation, @Grazza (with the way things our going I feel that a "Serious Talk: Big Issues" thread will come about sooner or later). Humans face more challenges in a day today than we did some 10,000 years ago in a week - perhaps even in a month - and I think we stand to learn from, and, I pray, overcome the current climate of living; many might say that this is simply another apocalyptic scenario being thrown out there, but, like with global warming, the warning signs have been in place for decades now (hence the article) and yet we still won't see much in the ways of action regarding this matter by those better positioned to do so than ourselves.

 

That was an excellent post, thank you.  I did think the apocalyptic styling ("Humans face extinction") might see it dismissed, yet for me the more immediate issue is health.

 

3 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Personally I don't think the idea of 'acting' less masculine has a knock on on this - I'm fairly comfortable with my maleness yet often don't act particularly masculine. I don't know if that's going to affect my ability to have kids - but judging from my heritage and 21 siblings to my mother and father alone that I'm hopefully going to be fine

 

Ah yes, I totally agree.  I am perfectly happy to do "feminine" things, but my concern is that we are being driven towards this, biologically, and not noticing.

[Shorty]

I find it strange that you mention a scientific study but then move to something not covered by that study. Unless I'm missing something, where's the evidence supporting a connection between effeminate men, and this issue?

[Grazza]

Just now, Shorty said:

I find it strange that you mention a scientific study but then move to something not covered by that study. Unless I'm missing something, where's the evidence about the connection between effeminate men, and this issue?

 

Well, it was a leap, but a reasonable one.  Lower male fertility caused by something making men less masculine and more feminine.

[Daft]

How do you go about measuring masculinity?

[Fierce_LiNk]

I'd like to know if it is possible at all to have access to the sperm count numbers before 1973, to at least give us a baseline.

I'd also like to know how this sample was selected.

Also, the source link from the Daily Mail website doesn't work.

From the article itself:

Quote

Researchers at Hebrew University-Hadassah Braun School of Public Health and Community Medicine and the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai looked at 185 studies collected between 1973 and 2011 regarding sperm count and concentration in men from North America, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

And:

Quote

In contrast, there was no significant decline in South America, Asia and Africa, though far fewer studies have been conducted in those areas

Colour me sceptical about how this data was collected and collated. Are these reputable sources?

To me, overpopulation of our planet is a bigger issue than falling fertility. If we're sticking with the article, then what is going to cause these falling sperm count rates? The article suggests it's based on chemical exposure, and they also link it to obesity, smoking and stress. Are you saying that there is a link between masculinity and stress, etc? I don't quite get how you've linked the "the fall in masculinity" to sperm count rates.

 

[The Bard]

Way to take a simple observation and extend it to the most bizarre, illogical conclusion. What evidence are you providing for the idea that "acting effeminate" somehow tanks sperm count? I can maybe see an argument being presented for long term sexual selection for neoteny and effeminate traits resulting in lowered sperm counts but that should present even more in asian and east african populations where neoteny is much more obvious.

It's happened over a short space of time though so it would be better to look at more obvious culprits like diet, stress levels, sources of ambient radiation etc.

[Grazza]

7 minutes ago, Daft said:

How do you go about measuring masculinity?

 

Testosterone levels.

 

7 minutes ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

To me, overpopulation of our planet is a bigger issue than falling fertility.

 

Fair enough, but do you think it's acceptable to reduce the population by destroying the health of individuals?  Personal politics shouldn't overshadow the truth of the matter.

 

8 minutes ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

The article suggests it's based on chemical exposure, and they also link it to obesity, smoking and stress. Are you saying that there is a link between masculinity and stress, etc?

 

Yes, of course.  Stress hormones reduce testosterone massively.

 

However, if we accept that humans are not constantly stressed, I think there must be another explanation.

[Grazza]

6 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Way to take a simple observation and extend it to the most bizarre, illogical conclusion. What evidence are you providing for the idea that "acting effeminate" somehow tanks sperm count? I can maybe see an argument being presented for long term sexual selection for neoteny and effeminate traits resulting in lowered sperm counts but that should present even more in asian and east african populations where neoteny is much more obvious.

 

I did not say that acting effeminate destroys sperm count.  Are some of you offended because you think I'm attacking homosexuality?  Let me be clear, I'm not.  I am suggesting that biological feminisation is lowering male fertility.  Men being more feminine is a symptom, not a cause.

 

6 minutes ago, The Bard said:

It's happened over a short space of time though so it would be better to look at more obvious culprits like diet, stress levels, sources of ambient radiation etc.

 

Or the contraceptive pill, introduced in the 1960s...

 

I don't disagree with your own suggestions for the cause though.  This is exactly what I'm saying myself.

[Rummy]

Look guys - I'm not agreeing with Grazza but neither am I wholly disagreeing. I do however have to admit I don't know enough on biology to make full judgements - I can see the merit in the argument of reduced emission of testosterone in the body due to less masculine behaviour having a possible knock on in to reproductive issues etc.

Again, I don't agree or neccessairly hold it but I can see the train of thought from someone who isn't an expert. I would say, whilst not related to the article, it's an arguably worthy point of conversation to consider though?

[Daft]

4 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Testosterone levels.

So...if I have high levels of testosterone, how would you expect me to act?

[Rummy]

4 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Are some of you offended because you think I'm attacking homosexuality?  Let me be clear, I'm not.

Whilst I do admit I can see where you're coming form Grazza I do have to point out the obvious(and presumable emotive reactions you'll receive as a result) flaw in this statement.

You're equating effeminate behaviour with homosexuality. It isn't equatable and never should or will be. I know very camp straight people, I know rather 'masculine' gay people. I don't think it's a point you meant to be hung up on, nor do I really want to it to become the focus of this topic - but I can see it definitely happening through the equation of two factors not neccessairly all that interlinked.

[Grazza]

12 minutes ago, Daft said:

So...if I have high levels of testosterone, how would you expect me to act?

 

Be very muscular, find it extremely easy to burn fat, very easily get an erection (sorry to go there).

[Fierce_LiNk]

12 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Fair enough, but do you think it's acceptable to reduce the population by destroying the health of individuals?  Personal politics shouldn't overshadow the truth of the matter.

I'm questioning the "truth of the matter", namely the validity of the stuff, the conditions in which it was conducted and whether the source is reputable or not. There are several red flags that need to be addressed first.

Quote

Yes, of course.  Stress hormones reduce testosterone massively.

Not entirely what I was asking, which was whether there was a link between masculinity and stress. Your opening post talks about the study in question and then talks about men becoming more feminine. I believe that you're arguing many separate things and are trying to artificially link them together. I do agree that lifestyles, busy environments, money worries, lack of social housing, access to jobs can lead to more stress.

Quote

However, if we accept that humans are not constantly stressed, I think there must be another explanation.

Well, the article talks about many factors, such as obesity. Obesity, stress from work, family life, jobs, lack of social housing, busy lifecycles can have an impact on your health and I can see how that could cause a drop in fertility. But, I still think you're trying to argue two separate things, with busy, stressful lifestyles on the one hand and "men acting feminine" on the other. I'm not sure that there is a link.

 

3 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Look guys - I'm not agreeing with Grazza but neither am I wholly disagreeing. I do however have to admit I don't know enough on biology to make full judgements - I can see the merit in the argument of reduced emission of testosterone in the body due to less masculine behaviour having a possible knock on in to reproductive issues etc.

Again, I don't agree or neccessairly hold it but I can see the train of thought from someone who isn't an expert. I would say, whilst not related to the article, it's an arguably worthy point of conversation to consider though?

Sure, there is merit. But again, the validity of the study is questionable, imo. I just don't feel that the information that we've been given and Grazza's opening post link up, particularly the notion about "men being feminine".

[Grazza]

18 minutes ago, Rummy said:

Look guys - I'm not agreeing with Grazza but neither am I wholly disagreeing. I do however have to admit I don't know enough on biology to make full judgements - I can see the merit in the argument of reduced emission of testosterone in the body due to less masculine behaviour having a possible knock on in to reproductive issues etc.

 

Thank you.  I can't stress enough though that I am not saying less masculine behaviour causes the problem.

 

13 minutes ago, Rummy said:

You're equating effeminate behaviour with homosexuality. It isn't equatable and never should or will be. I know very camp straight people, I know rather 'masculine' gay people. I don't think it's a point you meant to be hung up on, nor do I really want to it to become the focus of this topic - but I can see it definitely happening through the equation of two factors not neccessairly all that interlinked.

 

I totally, utterly agree.  That is why I wanted to stress that sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with masculine/feminine, but I thought it might be a reason some were offended.

[Rummy]

9 minutes ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

I just don't feel that the information that we've been given and Grazza's opening post link up, particularly the notion about "men being feminine".

Agreed. I do think there's different points being made here and linked up when not neccessairly linked. However I do feel they're all rather worthy of discussion!

 

Edit pending so please don't quote... - see below!

[Rummy]

5 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Totally, utterly agree.  That is why I wanted to stress that sexual orientation doesn't have anything to do with masculine/feminine, but I thought it might be a reason some were offended.

I think one of the problems here with the thread and the subject matter is that is emotive - and too many of you are going to make assumptions on each other. There's not a lot doable on my part to avoid this - but try and be mindful when composing your responses. If you're all replying and responding on invisible assumptions you essentially end up being two people in a room shouting at each other but having completely different conversations. Ask questions and try to understand each other to clarify every presumption you make!

[Grazza]

12 minutes ago, Fierce_LiNk said:

I'm questioning the "truth of the matter", namely the validity of the stuff, the conditions in which it was conducted and whether the source is reputable or not. There are several red flags that need to be addressed first.

 

OK, but our political persuasion encourages us to see the explanation we want.  On the BBC, the comments were along the lines of "Good, it'll keep the population down.", whereas the comments on the Daily Mail were in line with my conclusions.

 

Quote

Not entirely what I was asking, which was whether there was a link between masculinity and stress. Your opening post talks about the study in question and then talks about men becoming more feminine. I believe that you're arguing many separate things and are trying to artificially link them together. I do agree that lifestyles, busy environments, money worries, lack of social housing, access to jobs can lead to more stress.

 

You did ask though.  Masculinity and testosterone are the same thing (or at least the latter causes the former).  There's nothing else to it.

 

Quote

Well, the article talks about many factors, such as obesity. Obesity, stress from work, family life, jobs, lack of social housing, busy lifecycles can have an impact on your health and I can see how that could cause a drop in fertility. But, I still think you're trying to argue two separate things, with busy, stressful lifestyles on the one hand and "men acting feminine" on the other. I'm not sure that there is a link.

 

(Bangs head against wall) I'm talking about men being more feminine, not acting feminine.  As for obesity, quite simply, people in general aren't obese enough for this to be the explanation.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Grazza

[Daft]

Just now, Grazza said:

Be very muscular, find it extremely easy to burn fat, very easily get an erection (sorry to go there).

As an adonis, this describes me perfectly. Except for the 'easy to burn fat', that's just a calories in/out.

I find your ideas...intriguing, but ultimately I don't buy it. If what you were saying was actually the case, I think we'd see more acute cases of lower testosterone in queer communities. Drag Queens would show lower levels (if I understand what you're saying). And they don't. And even outside of that segment, women who are 'tomboys' would show higher levels of testosterone. No?

[Grazza]

1 minute ago, Daft said:

As an adonis, this describes me perfectly. Except for the 'easy to burn fat', that's just a calories in/out.

 

I do think there is a link between testosterone, muscle and fat-burning, but I don't want to get into a fitness discussion.  

 

1 minute ago, Daft said:

I find your ideas...intriguing, but ultimately I don't buy it. If what you were saying was actually the case, I think we'd see more acute cases of lower testosterone in queer communities. Drag Queens would show lower levels (if I understand what you're saying). And they don't. And even outside of that segment, women who are 'tomboys' would show higher levels of testosterone. No?

 

I genuinely don't understand why you'd think my argument being correct would need evidence of more acute cases in gay communities or in drag queens.  I am not saying dressing up as women lowers testosterone.  It's something that affects all Western men indiscriminately.

 

As for women, I'd say those who are good at sport do probably have higher testosterone levels than those who aren't.  I don't think that's new or controversial.

[Fierce_LiNk]

5 minutes ago, Grazza said:

 

OK, but our political persuasion encourages us to see the explanation we want.  On the BBC, the comments were along the lines of "Good, it'll keep the population down.", whereas the comments on the Daily Mail were in line with my conclusions.

So, you're not the least bit concerned about the validity of it? You're just happy to roll with any set of numbers thrown in front of you and come to your own conclusions, which aren't necessarily linked?

Quote

You did ask though.  Masculinity and testosterone are the same thing (or at least the latter causes the former).  There's nothing else to it.

Well,  testosterone is just a part of it. Masculinity is not a synonym for testosterone.

Quote

(Bangs head against wall) I'm talking about men being more feminine, not acting feminine.  As for obesity, quite simply, people in general aren't obese enough for this to be the explanation.

Ok, then what is your definition of "men being more feminine"? And how does this link to the findings of this study?