The Star Wars Thread

[Julius]

Talking to The Direct, Stuart Beattie has shared a bit about how his work original work on the Kenobi film - which was meant to be a trilogy - got warped into the show we ended up getting. 

Quote

I wrote the film that they based the show on. So, yeah. I spent like a year, year-and-a-half working on it. And then, when the decision was made not to make any more spin-off films after Solo came out, I left the project and went on to other things. Joby came on and took my scripts and turned it from two hours into six. So, I did not work with them at all, I just got credit for the episodes because it was all my stuff.

[...]

So when I pitched my Obi-Wan story to Lucasfilm, I said, ‘There’s actually three stories here. Because there’s three different evolutions that the character has to make in order to go from Obi-Wan to Ben.’ And the first one was the first movie, which was the show, which was, ‘Surrender to the will of the Force. Transport your will, surrender your will. Leave the kid alone.’ So then, the second [movie] was thinking about where Kenobi ends up. And one of the most powerful and probably the most powerful moment in all of Obi-Wan’s story is that moment where he sacrifices himself in A New Hope. Great moment, you know, makes you cry. But, if you stop and think about it, it’s a pretty sudden thing, to just kind of go be fighting a guy, to see Luke and go, ‘I’m gonna die.’ You know, that to me, that required forethought. That required pre-acceptance that this was going to happen.

[...]

So again, it’s one of those universal things we all struggle with, to come to terms with our own mortality. So, that was the second step of the evolution for me, that Obi-Wan now has to come to terms with his own mortality, somehow in a prophecy, or Qui-Gon telling him, ‘There’s going to come a moment where you’re gonna have to sacrifice yourself for the good,’ And then [Obi-Wan] is like, ‘What? No, no, no, no, I’m here to help… I can’t, no.’ And get him to that point where Obi Wan has accepted the idea that he’s going to die, and that he’s going to die willingly at a crucial moment, and you will know when that moment presents itself. So that when that moment comes up in [A New Hope], you understand. He’s recognizing he’s been on this journey already, and he’s waiting for this moment, and that’s how he’s able to make it so easily. To do this [sacrifice], and die. So that to me was the second evolution, the second film, the second story. So for me, if I have anything to do with the second season of Obi Wan, that’s the character evolution that I would take him on. That, to me, is really interesting. And like I said, universal.

[...]

I’m glad it got made. I’m glad the show got made. I’m proud of my story that [got] told. I’m glad my characters are all through it. And I’m glad I got credit for it. I wish, I wish they’d been able to make my movies.

Considering the pacing of the show...yeah, I do think it felt like a film script stretched out to a miniseries, and for me, it just didn't really work (for a lot of reasons, but the pacing/not being a story really tweaked right for weekly television was certainly a part of that). 

It's a shame, for me. There were definitely some parts I enjoyed, but like I've said before, I just ended up coming away disappointed, not because of the acting performances (I actually don't think anyone put a foot wrong), it just didn't really feel cohesive to me, and fell short of the billing they readied me. 

But I'm glad others enjoyed it, you can't win them all as a fan, even if I'll absolutely be ready to pop off about the soundtrack any moment I get the chance 

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

When you get to ordering tickets, this prob won't be necessary unless you want VIP, but I'd suggest opening the link 5 mins early on 2 or 3 different devices (on different networks). The way they do it is randomly assign you a place in the queue and it's complete luck where you end up. 

It was the same at the convention itself when it came to reserving a spot in the smaller panels, the first 3 days it took over an hour for me to get through the queue and by the time I did all the places were booked, but on the last day I was in in 5 minutes when people around me were struggling.

Ah, thanks for that, was wondering how the panel lottery worked! And yeah, I'll probably have too many screens up waiting for 17:00 to roll around on Thursday, but hopefully my experience of pre-ordering consoles over the last couple of years will come in handy here 

[Ronnie]

9 minutes ago, Julius said:

but the pacing/not being a story really tweaked right for weekly television was certainly a part of that). 

It's funny whilst I thought it would have worked better as a film (with the increased budget that goes with that), I still think it worked as a series. It was one storyline, broken up into smaller chapters. Ep 2: Daiyu, Ep 3: Mapuzo, Ep 4: The Fortress Ep 5: Jabiim. It goes back to what I love about Mando in that each episode of that show is its own mini adventure. Glad they brought the inquisitors in from the original script though, and the Path opens up a lot of new story-telling possibilities. 

9 minutes ago, Julius said:

Ah, thanks for that, was wondering how the panel lottery worked! And yeah, I'll probably have too many screens up waiting for 17:00 to roll around on Thursday, but hopefully my experience of pre-ordering consoles over the last couple of years will come in handy here

The lottery for the first (big) panel of each day was done well in advance, they gave you a week to apply and then they just emailed you if you were successful, but all the other panels you could reserve a spot on the day in the morning, and if that didn't work you just queue up on a standby line. It was hard to argue with how they managed any of it tbh, seemed fair enough.

Edited June 28, 2022 by Ronnie

[Hero-of-Time]

I sat and watched this video the other day and have watched it a couple of times since.

Spoiler

 

There are a few videos doing the rounds that do the same thing but this was the one I watched.

It's crazy how much more meaningful, emotional and exciting a scene can be when it incorporates the right music. Fans continue to show Disney how it's done when it comes to this stuff. It's just like the other video that was made for the hallway scene in final episode of Mando. A fan put in a classic Star Wars piece of music and the whole thing was just elevated to another level.

[Julius]

2 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

I sat and watched this video the other day and have watched it a couple of times since.

  Kenobi final episode spoilers (Hide contents)

 

There are a few videos doing the rounds that do the same thing but this was the one I watched.

It's crazy how much more meaningful, emotional and exciting a scene can be when it incorporates the right music. Fans continue to show Disney how it's done when it comes to this stuff. It's just like the other video that was made for the hallway scene in final episode of Mando. A fan put in a classic Star Wars piece of music and the whole thing was just elevated to another level.

Yeah, I've watched that a few times too. Another good one...

Spoiler

...was the scene of Vader marching up to Reva. 

I think there was also one where someone added Immolation Scene to Vader dragging Obi-Wan through the flames, but I can't seem to find it. 

I agree with you H-o-T, just shows the importance of music choices (both composing new tracks and knowing when to utilise old ones is Lesson #1 of composing for Star Wars), and honestly I think makes me feel like getting consistently good Star Wars music is something which has been taken for granted. The thing with Star Wars is that it's music is as essential to it as it's sound design, set design, and costume design, because the entire soundscape of a Star Wars project is exactly what whisks you away. But the difference with music is that, unlike a costume or set, is that you can touch and feel it in exactly the way the composer intended. 

Look, I have multiple issues with the show, but by far the most egregious one to me is the music. I've been listening to the soundtrack the last few days (it released on Monday) and, for the most part: it's not even close to good enough. Williams' Kenobi Theme is good, I've said it before that Holt's Vader theme is okay and would have been stronger serving as a lead-in to the Imperial March, and there's one or two tracks I'd also say I liked, just because they got closer to the prequel sound than the rest of the soundtrack managed. 

I'm putting on my tinfoil hat, because now is probably as good a time as any to say what I think happened behind-the-scenes (and which I think there is evidence for), but first I'll dig into the surface level.

I'll just say ¡SPOILER WARNING! to openly quote some interviews, though I don't think much happens in the show that I think is very unpredictable to begin with if you've watched other Star Wars shows, so 

I'm not a composer, so maybe some will feel I'm not qualified to speak to this, but I've listened to Star Wars soundtracks and watched the films enough to know them intimately, and this soundtrack is one of the biggest botches under the Disney helm from Lucasfilm for me. Even Rise of Skywalker had a great soundtrack (albeit one chopped to pieces on editing). That this has made me want to dig into editing and sound mixing tells you all you need to know about where I sound on the show's soundtrack. 

You cannot talk up the importance of the music in Star Wars, and John Williams specifically, and then throw his work away to "set up" classic themes which are used liberally throughout the prequels and animated series. Look, I think Natalie Holt did a fine job with Loki when she could flex her creativity a bit more, but she's literally come out and said that she hadn't watched the prequels prior to preparing for this show – what the hell is someone doing on a project which might as well be titled Episode III.5 when they don't have intimate knowledge of the music that's come before? And apparently not even paying attention to the music enough to use it? 

From her interview with Screen Rant on prep for the show:

Quote

What was interesting was the prequels. I was slightly the wrong age for them when they came out, and then I think with the Jar Jar Binks character, I was kind of like, "Oh, I'm not sure. I think I'll stick with the original trilogy. I don't think I want to see those." I never even watched them. I watched the J.J. Abrams stuff, and Rogue One, and the Han Solo movie, but I hadn't seen them. So, it was really interesting to watch them with my daughter and appreciate them. Anakin Skywalker is her favorite character, because you see him from a little boy, pod racing. Annie just thought it was the coolest thing. It was great to also just be a fan of those as well.

Further yet, something which has thoroughly pushed my buttons is people trying to justify things like the lack of Imperial March by saying "iT's ThE eMpIrE's ThEmE, nOt VaDeR's".

Yeah, no, sorry, that's just wrong. It's not in A New Hope because, well, it wasn't written, and there have been rumours since the Special Editions that John Williams wanted to rescore the film to include the Imperial March. But, come on, THE IMPERIAL MARCH IS THE CORE OF ANAKIN'S LITERAL THEME FROM THE PHANTOM MENACE. 

Natalie Holt also mixed up Yoda's Theme with the Force Theme which...yikes. 

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John Williams watched the whole show, and he granted permission for his themes to be used in episode six and in certain places, and where the Yoda theme would go, and then that set the tentpoles for me. Like, "Okay, we can't use the themes until this point, so we need to be leading to them.

So anyways, tinfoil hat time: I think this is just as much down to Deborah Chow as it is Natalie Holt, and ultimately I think that they recognised that the show's score wasn't good enough, and so an attempt was made to salvage this. It was just far too late in the game. 

So, why might Deborah Chow be partially to blame? 

This is also from Natalie Holt's interview with Screen Rant:

Quote

When I started up on this project, we weren't sure that we were going to be allowed to use the John Williams themes. Deborah [Chow] was saying to me, "I think we need to score the show as if we're not going to be able to use them." She was like, "I don't want to find out that we can't, so let's make it work without. Let's do our own thing." And she was saying, "Actually, if we were going to use the Vader theme, I don't think we should use it until episode six, because he's still half Anakin, half Vader at this point. When his mask cracks open at the end, and he says 'You didn't kill Anakin Skywalker. I did,' you realize now he's Vader, now he's earned his 'Imperial March'." Now when you hear it, it's so powerful. Deborah didn't want that theme playing every time you see Darth Vader, she wanted to explore his journey to get there.

This doesn't even begin to make sense to me. Not much happens in the show which pushes Anakin further down the path of Vader, he seems very set in his ways at this point, and further yet...you didn't realise he was Vader after the prequels? Or after the ending of Revenge of the Sith? 

I also don't buy for a second that they "weren't sure that [they] were going to be able to use the John Williams themes." Excuse me, are you suggesting that Lucasfilm requires independent and individual signoff from Williams every single time they use one of his themes? You know, the ones they've used liberally ever since 1977? Over the last 10 years, did they really require his signoff for use in Rogue One, Rebels, The Clone Wars, Fallen Order, the Battlefront games, etc.?

I just don't buy it. I've never heard anyone so much as ever hearing so much as a whisper about Williams laying claim to his soundtracks and being anything like how Koichi Sugiyama was a pain in the ass with Dragon Quest music.

There have also been whispers - because of this show - that Lucasfilm/Skywalker Sound don't own the music to Star Wars and need to license it? Utter tripe. Not for a second am I buying that. Re-releasing specific old soundtracks which were recorded by Sony, maybe they'd have a bit more of a hurdle to leap, but there's no way they don't own the rights to the Star Wars soundtracks. Even if the shoddy work on the ROTJ remastered soundtrack would suggest otherwise. 

It does make you wonder why they thought that, though, and honestly, it looks worse on Holt for not challenging that (i.e. lack of background knowledge of the series), and way, way, way worse considering that some of them are used in the end. Shame on Deborah Chow for giving Holt direction that they weren't sure about being allowed to use the Williams themes and to saying to do their own thing, she's as clueless as Holt when it comes to the prequel soundtracks, clearly. 

Which brings me onto William "Bill" Ross. 

Just who in the blazes is William "Bill" Ross?

William Ross is a longtime collaborator/orchestrator/arranger of John Williams', and has frequently adapted music by John Williams (in the context of scoring, this means he would work from John Williams' sheets and liner notes). He's adapted the new Jurassic World theme, was brought in to adapt the second Harry Potter soundtrack as John Williams was too busy at the time (his other works at the time in 2001 were Attack of the Clones, Minority Report, and Catch Me If You Can), and is also the one who conducted the theme you'd hear at Galaxy's Edge, as well as arranging other music for the park. 

For obvious reasons, yes, some have wanted him to work on Star Wars for a while now. 

So what was his contribution to Obi-Wan Kenobi? 

Well, according to the show's credits, he only adapted John Williams' Obi-Wan Theme. 

I guess this as good a point as any to point something fundamental out: Natalie Holt didn't use the Kenobi Theme once throughout the entire show. Every single time you hear it? That's Ross. Oh, and guess what? The same goes for when we do eventually get those classic themes, too. 

What's more, these credits are incredibly misleading. If you take a look at the Spotify listing for the soundtrack, including adapting the end credits, Ross is credited with having worked on 7 of the 31 released tracks, many of which are for key scenes in the show. He should absolutely be credited as a co-composer on this soundtrack, and honestly, it's pretty gross that he isn't, but most telling is that he is front and centre when others who worked on the soundtrack aren't given the same attention in the credits. 

Okay, where are you going with this? 

Here's what I think happened. 

Natalie Holt mostly - or fully - composed her own score for Obi-Wan Kenobi, but it was not well received, either by someone in a position of power at Disney or Lucasfilm, or even, potentially, by test audiences (I don't think we have much incite into the full process for these Disney+ shows yet, so I'm not sure if they even have them). 

I mean, it wasn't announced until weirdly late that she would even be the show's composer, towards the end of April, just a month from the show's release, when the composer for Andor, Nicholas Britell, was officially confirmed to be composing his show at the end of May. Holt started work before John Williams was brought on in December to compose the Kenobi Theme (this should be seen as a huge red flag) in just two weeks (red flag again), and at one point even had her own theme for the show. She hardly got to touch the theme for the show she was composing for, the theme wasn't done until after she was brought onboard, and unlike Powell with Solo, she has said that she didn't get the opportunity to collaborate with Williams.

Anyways, with important people unhappy with the score for the show as is, Kathleen Kennedy (I don't think there's anyone else at Lucasfilm or Disney who have the relationship or pull that she might have to get John Williams onboard) gets in touch with John Williams and asks him to score the show. Who better than the maestro himself?

...except John Williams doesn't have the time - or maybe doesn't want - to score an entire show, and so he comes onboard only agreeing to compose the new theme for Obi-Wan Kenobi, which can then be used as a core by his longtime collaborator William Ross who is brought in to do what he can to "fix" the score in adapting and figuring out the sound of the rest of the show with this new theme. First priority? Tackling the bigger moments where they feel Holt's work just doesn't fit at all. 

So, why not just replace Natalie Holt at that point? Well, what do you think the optics would be like for sacking the first female composer on a major Star Wars project? Yeah, not great.

This could help explain why they left announcing her so late: simply put, their original intention might have been for William Ross to start from the ground up, but likely due to pressure from above Lucasfilm - as we've seen a few times since the Disney buyout - Disney rather ship a half-assed product on time than delay. So he basically had to salvage what he could, utilising both the new Williams theme, and the major themes Natalie Holt had introduced (such as a new Vader theme)

Okay, but why didn't he use more of the prequel music/classic themes? 

Rogue One's soundtrack was a mighty fine soundtrack for something churned out in just four weeks, but it's also based on themes that were nearly 40 years old at that point, which are classic and very easy to work in and out of; Giacchino new from the get-go what he wanted to do, as this was something he'd dreamed of getting to do since he was a kid.

By comparison, the prequel soundtracks are easily the most complex compositions in Star Wars - not necessarily best, as that's subjective, but complex - and rearranging and adapting them would, I'm sure, take a very long time. 

I think Ross did the best he could with this in mind and having to balance music from Williams and Holt, for example I think he did a great job with...

Spoiler

...the sparring scene. It actually sounds like a track which would slot into the prequels pretty effortlessly. 

There are flourishes throughout which are certainly reminiscent of Battle of the Heroes.  

Honestly, it's a shame that it was rushed out and William Ross likely won't get the chance to go back, because given the time - and especially given that the OST and show are both only available digitally - I think he could have put something together pretty great, and still could. And yes, I am saying that they should consider re-scoring the show. 

If we get a second season, I think it will be very telling if there's any truth to my thoughts if Natalie Holt returns, because I doubt she will. At worst I'm a mile off and grasping at straws, but her soundtrack was ineffective and she'll have seen the criticism and choose to step away, or Lucasfilm simply won't want her back because they've seen the criticism/agree that it was poor/I'm on the right trail. I'd love William Ross to get a crack at it again if there is a second season, but I now think this first season puts any potential second season composer in an awkward position where getting it right would mean making the show musically incongruous, due to the score of the first season. 

Which is exactly why I think it needs to be re-scored. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Julius

[Ronnie]

I'm not going to begin to argue with you about music and soundtracks because I know next to nothing about it, but the whole thing about re-scoring new scenes with old music really, really rubs me up the wrong way. The music when Luke comes in to save the day in Mando is AMAZING. Like legit incredible. And yet you still had people going back and putting the same Force theme that's been used a thousand times before over it. A huge chunk of people (to clarify, genuinely not talking about you here @Julius) have been conditioned these days to eat up nostalgia and call backs at the expense of the 'new'. It's why people on Twitter talk about "not caring about Reva, give me more Vader" and so much of entertainment these days panders to what's come before. And it's the same with these re-edits with the familiar tunes.

I'm definitely not saying the soundtrack to Kenobi was good or memorable, because honestly, apart from the Inquisitor (Reva?) theme and the Star Destroyer chase music, I don't really remember much of it, but the new has to be given a chance. 

The decision to only use the Imperial March or Leia's theme once they transitioned into their new (OT) mindset at the end of Part 6 was actually quite a good choice in my opinion, but obviously that isn't the most popular choice on here *tiptoes on ice*  Vader, being forced to move on from Kenobi and Leia choosing to lead in her own way. I personally thought it worked.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Ronnie

[Julius]

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I'm not going to begin to argue with you about music and soundtracks because I know next to nothing about it, but the whole thing about re-scoring new scenes with old music really, really rubs me up the wrong way. The music when Luke comes in to save the day in Mando is AMAZING. Like legit incredible. And yet you still had people going back and putting the same Force theme that's been used a thousand times before over it. A huge chunk of people (to clarify, genuinely not talking about you here @Julius) have been conditioned these days to eat up nostalgia and call backs at the expense of the 'new'. It's why people on Twitter talk about "not caring about Reva, give me more Vader" and so much of entertainment these days panders to what's come before. And it's the same with these re-edits with the familiar tunes.

To clarify my position on this - and it is just for clarity, I know you aren't calling me out  - I'm not saying that new scenes need to utilise the exact same track (i.e. old music), but it should at the very least pay homage to it if it's right and makes sense to do from a storytelling perspective. These fan edits are fun and are a great way to show how resonant reusing a score would be, but given that a lot of battle music can be incidental (i.e. it "reacts" to what is happening on-screen), it's an awkward fit at times; that's why it would require rearrangement, even if you wanted to use Duel of the Fates or Battle of the Heroes. I'm not at all saying it should be hamfisted in such a way where you just drop and plop Duel of the Fates in. 

I wasn't too hot on the hallway scene music at the end of Mando S2 when I first watched it, but Ludwig Göransson still knew that, following that scene, when the hood comes down, the Force Theme had to play. It's non-negotiable. And he did so. That's what I'm saying: knowing when and how to reference what we'll call "legacy music" is literally half of the job of a Star Wars composer, because get the balance wrong, and it won't feel like Star Wars. That goes for too much (such as when we get the Force Theme referenced too much in some shows and films, including the prequels) and too little (here). Also, another reason I've come around to the hallway scene music is that I'm confident it's a reference to/influenced by Il Triello, the music from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, there are a lot of similarities there. 

Back to Star Wars, though; as an example, if you are going to lean into "this isn't Vader facing Obi-Wan, but actually Anakin" perspective, then you should try to incorporate the literal battle theme created for their duel at the end of Revenge of the Sith (Battles of the Heroes/Anakin vs Obi-Wan). It doesn't need to be the entire track, it doesn't need to be 1:1, but flourishes and hints at that track, especially at important points, can do a lot of the heavy lifting that no one line in a script can. 

Star Wars has done this time and time again - it's as important as a character theme - albeit sometimes to its own detriment (though most often this would be in cases where editing has continued after Williams has scored a scene and things have been reshuffled, so old music is slotted in to fill that space). 

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I'm definitely not saying the soundtrack to Kenobi was good or memorable, because honestly, apart from the Inquisitor (Reva?) theme and the Star Destroyer chase music, I don't really remember much of it, but the new has to be given a chance. 

I agree, it does. But again, you need that balance.

Fallen Order, Rebels, The Clone Wars, The Bad Batch, they all have new music. Great music. But you know what they do well, and way better than Kenobi? They balance it out with the themes you know and love, so that they're seamlessly adding to the tapestry of Star Wars music without taking much away, because they take place in times that we know about.

Can we use the Imperial March here in Fallen Order? Yes, because it's used throughout the prequels and original trilogy and is Vader's and the Empire's theme. And, smartly, they also lean heavily on prequel music when it calls for it, such as when we hear Anakin's Betrayal or Anakin's Dark Deeds in appropriate scenes (ahem ahem ahem, the event which is a character "ghost" in both Kenobi and Fallen Order, but ended up with generic tripe in Kenobi rather than one of the strongest tracks in the entire saga which is used almost exclusively to reference said event). 

Mando and The Book of Boba Fett, on the other hand, take place in a time we don't know much about, with characters we - for the most part - don't know much about, and is told from a perspective we've never had before. The musical inspiration for Mando is clear and obvious - samurai and old western films, the same things that influenced George in creating Star Wars - and it works because they knew what they wanted. Boba Fett I'd say less so (great main theme, rest of it is fairly forgettable). 

But what was the aim of Kenobi, as a show, and how has that been an influence musically? Seriously, not being rhetorical here, I don't think it's clear at all, because the soundtrack is often out of sync with the show (not rhythmically, but in terms of direction). If this show is to bridge the gap between Episodes III and IV, which the show was sold as doing, and which I'd say is what most people took away from the show? Then "Well, you see, we didn't actually know if we'd be able to use classic themes, so we threw in our own stuff just in case" isn't going to fly. At all.

Nor should it. It's shameful. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding for the basics of Star Wars music - the importance of its character themes specifically - and the assignment. It's like handing in English homework in a Maths class. 

6 hours ago, Ronnie said:

The decision to only use the Imperial March or Leia's theme once they transitioned into their new (OT) mindset at the end of Part 6 was actually quite a good choice in my opinion, but obviously that isn't the most popular choice on here *tiptoes on ice* 

Or the Force Theme. 

In fairness, I thought the use of Leia's Theme was okay - it was the only one that felt natural, at least - if a little clunky considering it was sandwiched between her "new theme" for the show, meaning I went "man, this would be much better with Leia's Theme" > "oh hey, it's Leia's Theme, this works" > "wait...why are we back at this new theme?". 

The use of the Force Theme was throwaway and one of the weakest statements of it - especially for only being used once in the entire six episodes; it reminded me of its casual and abundant use in the prequels and sequels - but that's how John Williams probably would have scored that scene (and if he scored the rest of the show, I'm sure it would've been all over the place since that first instance where I said it should have been used, the first time Obi-Wan uses the Force, which would have made that weaker statement feel more natural). 

Saving the Imperial March, on the other hand, I couldn't disagree with more. It's great if it worked for you, but it just pissed me off. Genuinely. Like I said before the last episode, the problem with doing that is that the rest of the show now feels bent out of shape - because where was the Imperial March during all of the other Vader appearances if it could be used then? - and I also simply don't buy into it.

Forget the original trilogy and the rest of Star Wars for a moment: this show's music was absolutely a slap in the face to prequel fans, because there wasn't any prequel music. In a show which is bridging the gap between the prequels and the original trilogy. I love Revenge of the Sith unapologetically, but it did use it's ending to hamfist straight into A New Hope, and so you get the kitchen sink thrown at the wall musically and visually: the creation of Vader, dropping off Luke and Leia, the construction of the Death Star, pseudo-Imperial ships (Republic ships they forgot to paint), hell, you even get the Force Theme and binary sunset. And now the next time we see Vader in Fallen Order he's got the Imperial March, but then when we get to Kenobi he doesn't? But then he does again by the time it ends. And then he does again in Rebels. And Rogue One. 

Look back at what I posted above and consider this (note: when I'm saying "you", I'm referring to Deborah Chow/Natalie Holt, not you Ronnie): how can you, on the one hand, not know if you're allowed to use the classic Williams themes; but then, on the other, spend the entire show building up to the one time you plan on using the Imperial March in the final episode? And to top it all off, Natalie Holt didn't use a single note of a Williams theme in the entire show, but now she was allowed to and going to use the Imperial March in the final episode?

It doesn't make sense! At this point I wouldn't be surprised if that's a case of them trying to save face. Yes, the new Vader theme is based on the Imperial March, but that doesn't mean they had to be building up to using it. 

You know what's more likely? William Ross came in (which he did, and went under the radar, and potentially everything else I said above), realised they hadn't used the Imperial March once, and added it in at the end of the show, because that was the most important scene to use it in: it's the last time you see Vader, it retroactively makes it seem like it was building up to it (because let's face it, if he sprinkled it in elsewhere with Vader but not everywhere, we'd still be confused) and sets him up nicely for it to be used the next time we see him chronologically.

Could and should have it been used at every earlier opportunity? He might think so, because Williams would have likely done the same. Did he have the time to do that? No, unfortunately he probably didn't, because he likely had the other important moments to salvage musically. 

Yeah, I was disappointed in the show, that's one thing. The music makes my blood boil, not in a way which makes me want to say stupid things online, but I just think Natalie Holt ultimately took on a role where she wanted to compose Star Wars - and could probably still compose her own Star Wars project like Mando, well away from everything else, really well - more than she thought about if she was the right person for the job. 

Take away the fact that themes didn't return for a moment, because I actually think the biggest reason that's even being discussed is almost a distraction from the issue that for the original soundtrack itself for this show was just incredibly weak. If it stood strong on its own I don't think nearly as many people would be going back and re-scoring scenes with tracks from previous films/shows. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by Julius

[Julius]

As if on cue, here's a quick BTS featurette featuring Duel of the Fates 

I do hope this show gets its own Disney Gallery, as I really enjoyed the ones we've had so far, and always love hearing from Ewan and Hayden! 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Julius

[Ronnie]

Totally agree with most of that @Julius, like I said I think the Holt part of the soundtrack to Kenobi is pretty poor/forgettable and absolutely a sprinkling of familiar themes when the time called for them would have been good, similar to Yoda's theme being introduced for a few seconds in Mando S2 when Ahsoka talks about him. The show is for the most part about familiar characters like you say. The decision to hold off Vader, Anakin and the Force theme until the end of the series I still think was a creative choice, one which I personally was fine with given they were different people at the end of the series than how they were and it was another way of passing the torch. Re: Imperial March/Vader theme I think if you ignore the 'throw it at a wall' instance at the end of ROTS and the bit in Fallen Order (I know Lucasfilm will have had their hands all over that game, but it's still not top tier content), then the moment where Vader is forced to let go of Kenobi and move on to being the man we see in the OT makes sense, but mileage will vary on that front I guess. Now I wouldn't say the use of the Force theme at the end of Part 6 was particularly elegant, it seemed quite of cellotaped on, but I think it made much more sense there than if it had been used say when he saved Leia from falling in Part 2. Maybe a few notes of it might have been good, building towards the full theme at the end?

Anyway long story short, I totally agree that the Holt part of the soundtrack was poor. My original post up there ^ was more to do with fan edits and "fix" culture on YouTube which really winds me up a lot of the time, and promotes, if not quite toxicity, then a level of apathy to a piece of entertainment, which is already bad enough thanks to social media and negative YouTube culture. I'll admit it can be a force for good, the guy who 'fixed' Luke at the end of Mando now being employed at Lucasfilm, but that was a technical achievement, rather than an artistic choice like the Force theme over the Mando hallway scene.

[Julius]

33 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

The decision to hold off Vader, Anakin and the Force theme until the end of the series I still think was a creative choice, one which I personally was fine with given they were different people at the end of the series than how they were and it was another way of passing the torch.

Yeah, it's a difficult one to parse. For me, at least, their interview answers just aren't adding up; like I said before, how can you plan out an entire show to build up musically to using a theme which you don't even know you can use? 

We'll probably never know what happened behind the scenes (I mean, maybe Williams simply didn't trust her with his music from what he'd heard from feedback? But then it doesn't sound like she was going to use it at all anyways), but I think there's a lot of evidence that something did. If Natalie Holt doesn't return in the event that there is a second season, then I think that'll be a clear sign, and even more so if William Ross steps up. 

37 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Re: Imperial March/Vader theme I think if you ignore the 'throw it at a wall' instance at the end of ROTS and the bit in Fallen Order (I know Lucasfilm will have had their hands all over that game, but it's still not top tier content), then the moment where Vader is forced to let go of Kenobi and move on to being the man we see in the OT makes sense, but mileage will vary on that front I guess.

Well, the thing is, even if you ignore the final 10 minutes of Revenge of the Sith (I brought that up more so to illustrate that George basically set it up so that there wasn't much wiggle room, III leads into IV as much as it can for a film set 19 years prior), the Imperial March is all over the prequels (and by extension The Clone Wars). It's in Anakin's Theme, it's in the chambers when he's being tested by the Jedi Council, it's there after he's finished slaughtering Tuskens, it's there when the clone army is marching around and lining up at the end (though that's more used as a reference to the Empire), it's there when Palpatine is teaching him, heck, it's even in Anakin vs Obi-Wan. 

I think my issue with it is that not only is it inconsistent in that way from my perspective, the thing which annoys me most is simply that Holt and Chow probably didn't even realise how integral the Imperial March is to the music of the prequels. Yes, anyone can come onto a project with fresh eyes and all that, but having a composer unfamiliar with the prequels compose a show which is leaning on the prequels, when they clearly don't know that soundtrack intimately - as in, they probably wouldn't be able to call on knowledge of that soundtrack if they tried - just speaks volumes to me. 

At the same time, like I said before, I think Deborah Chow is at least as responsible if not more so for the soundtrack being what it is, because why bring in a very good composer to then tell them something which isn't true (or has been twisted: that they weren't sure if they could use the Williams themes, and seemingly didn't bother to clarify before starting to get to work?) and limit them creatively by saying "Imperial March, you know, Vader's theme? Off limits!"?

But yeah, YMMV  if it worked for you then great, but I'm an alternate universe where the soundtrack was the same but character themes were used in the way that's become the norm in Star Wars, while the OST would still be seen as weak, I don't think there'd be as much confusion. 

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Now I wouldn't say the use of the Force theme at the end of Part 6 was particularly elegant, it seemed quite of cellotaped on, but I think it made much more sense there than if it had been used say when he saved Leia from falling in Part 2. Maybe a few notes of it might have been good, building towards the full theme at the end? 

Like I said before, I think my problem with how it is used at the end of the show is that it's so understated in that it's stated in a way that would make you think it's used throughout the show, because it's used in the same way that it is in the prequels/sequels, very casually; the thing which prompts it is Obi-Wan literally saying "May the Force be with you" 

I really think it should have been present in some form when he caught Leia - whether that's a full statement or hinting at it; I think a full statement could have worked, or using the Obi-Wan Theme then going into it, as it has natural jumping off points to go into the Force Theme, do they both could have worked - as, like I've said before, this is the first time we see him use the Force in the show and he's clearly been trying to avoid using it/having troubles with it, as we get more evidence for as the show goes on, so this is a pretty big moment in terms of the story and seeing his relationship with the Force be rebuilt. It's the first time where it makes sense to use it, at least. I think you hint at it there, or maybe have that be the one time it gets a full statement, before...

Spoiler

...you get it as he uses the Force to escape the cave-in while facing Vader, and potentially even again when he goes all Avatar state and flings a bunch of rocks at Vader. And then one last time at the end, when he says "May the Force be with you." 

Also, quick aside: just throw Qui-Gon's Theme in when Qui-Gon turns up. The fact it's not there goes to my point about Holt likely not knowing the prequel OST well enough, Qui-Gon's Theme isn't exactly a commonly known theme in the realm of Star Wars music. 

 

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

My original post up there ^ was more to do with fan edits and "fix" culture on YouTube which really winds me up a lot of the time, and promotes, if not quite toxicity, then a level of apathy to a piece of entertainment, which is already bad enough thanks to social media and negative YouTube culture. I'll admit it can be a force for good, the guy who 'fixed' Luke at the end of Mando now being employed at Lucasfilm, but that was a technical achievement, rather than an artistic choice like the Force theme over the Mando hallway scene.

Yeah, I get what you mean - it questions and directly kind of goes at the creative intent - though I think it has its place in just showing how effective it could have been to use previously composed music. 

I agree that I'm not a fan of using the term "fix", though; while I've got plenty of issues with the OST and plenty of ideas on how it could have been better, at the end of the day I'm not a composer or sound engineer, so it's not really my place to tell a professional how to do their job, much less "fix" their work.

Problem is, "fan edit: here's what Duel of the Fates would have been like in Kenobi" just doesn't drive clicks in the same way, so if anything I think it's more of a problem with the platform and how it's grown to this point where short, snappy, attention grabbing titles need to be used to gain visibility. 

[Ronnie]

Heads up @Julius and anyone else, Celebration tickets now on sale. Three devices open, two saying an hour + to get through the queue, the third saying 17 mins

[Ronnie]

It's a shame we might never know what went on behind the scenes, be interesting to see if Holt is given another Star Wars gig, be it in season 2 or elsewhere.

3 hours ago, Julius said:

Well, the thing is, even if you ignore the final 10 minutes of Revenge of the Sith (I brought that up more so to illustrate that George basically set it up so that there wasn't much wiggle room, III leads into IV as much as it can for a film set 19 years prior), the Imperial March is all over the prequels (and by extension The Clone Wars). It's in Anakin's Theme, it's in the chambers when he's being tested by the Jedi Council, it's there after he's finished slaughtering Tuskens, it's there when the clone army is marching around and lining up at the end (though that's more used as a reference to the Empire), it's there when Palpatine is teaching him, heck, it's even in Anakin vs Obi-Wan. 

See this is why I should stop attempting to sound smart when it comes to soundtracks and themes and take you on in a nuanced discussion about it  I think it's fantastic you're clearly so passionate about this kind of thing (obv not trying to sound condescending). Apart from the obvious stuff it kind of goes in one ear and out the other for me until it's an instant classic soundtrack like Mando. Now if you want to get into a multi-page discussion about the look and feel of Star Wars space-battles and exactly how starfighters should fly and be shown on screen, I'm all yours 

4 hours ago, Julius said:

I really think it should have been present in some form when he caught Leia - whether that's a full statement or hinting at it; I think a full statement could have worked, or using the Obi-Wan Theme then going into it, as it has natural jumping off points to go into the Force Theme, do they both could have worked

To be fair, much as I loved the series, that moment was pretty forgettable in hindsight, probably for the reasons you suggest.

4 hours ago, Julius said:

Problem is, "fan edit: here's what Duel of the Fates would have been like in Kenobi" just doesn't drive clicks in the same way, so if anything I think it's more of a problem with the platform and how it's grown to this point where short, snappy, attention grabbing titles need to be used to gain visibility. 

Yeah that's fair enough, social media like TikTok have helped condition everyone into having short attention spans so headlines need to grab your attention instantly. 

[Julius]

24 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Heads up @Julius and anyone else, Celebration tickets now on sale. Three devices open, two saying an hour + to get through the queue, the third saying 17 mins

Got mine and my friends' 4-day tickets secured  any luck on your end?

Phone was 2 seconds ahead before actually getting to the waiting screen, then my desktop raced by: 55 seconds...then 55 minutes!...then 46 minutes...then 20 minutes...then 10 minutes, and it carried on like normal from there. 

Got in to see that VIP tickets were still available when I got in, and I stared at the screen for a few minutes. Said I only had availability to pick up 2, but obviously wouldn't want to leave my friends in the lurch/planned this first Celebration to be more getting used to it, but man, I hope I don't regret that and get another shot at them at a future Celebration! 

[Ronnie]

5 minutes ago, Julius said:

Got in to see that VIP tickets were still available when I got in, and I stared at the screen for a few minutes. Said I only had availability to pick up 2, but obviously wouldn't want to leave my friends in the lurch/planned this first Celebration to be more getting used to it, but man, I hope I don't regret that and get another shot at them at a future Celebration! 

Wow that's good going, you must have been one of the first in. My queue was only 15 minutes but VIP was all sold out! For what it's worth I think you made the right call, I'm going with others and it wouldn't make sense to get VIP.

Also the lottery system only officially got me into the Bad Batch panel but I bought passes for the other three off eBay/Facebook from people who didn't need them for about 50 quid each, so there'll be other ways for you to get in if that's what you're thinking.

And yeah all sorted, got tickets for me, my sister and my nephew 

[Ronnie]

Wow looks like 4-Day passes are already sold out! It took a couple hours for Anaheim and that was after a ton of people had already transferred their spots from 2020.

[Julius]

19 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Wow that's good going, you must have been one of the first in. My queue was only 15 minutes but VIP was all sold out! For what it's worth I think you made the right call, I'm going with others and it wouldn't make sense to get VIP.

Yeah, it's one of those where I think it only really makes sense if you go solo/as a couple/intimate group where everyone cares a whole lot about Star Wars? Like "let's pay five times more because we love Star Wars that much" level of caring 

22 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Also the lottery system only officially got me into the Bad Batch panel but I bought passes for the other three off eBay/Facebook from people who didn't need them for about 50 quid each, so there'll be other ways for you to get in if that's what you're thinking.

Oh that's a great tip, thanks! I'll definitely be keeping an eye on eBay when it gets closer to the time then; I got rid of my Facebook years ago, and it's only in really specific situations like this where I find myself regretting it, if only briefly! 

23 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

And yeah all sorted, got tickets for me, my sister and my nephew 

20 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Wow looks like 4-Day passes are already sold out! It took a couple hours for Anaheim and that was after a ton of people had already transferred their spots from 2020.

Yeah just seen that, it's nuts! I wonder if there are just less tickets available due to the ExCel being smaller than the Anaheim Convention Center? Probably seen as a safer option by most too, just with how we've handled COVID like you've mentioned before, and maybe even it returning this year but with main panels not being shown online driving FOMO? 

[Ronnie]

20 minutes ago, Julius said:

Oh that's a great tip, thanks! I'll definitely be keeping an eye on eBay when it gets closer to the time then; I got rid of my Facebook years ago, and it's only in really specific situations like this where I find myself regretting it, if only briefly! 

Good thinking to get rid of Facebook. Ebay is easier anyway, Facebook you have to see who happens to mention they don't need tickets anymore then message them etc. It's just a QR code though so easily transferred.  

20 minutes ago, Julius said:

Yeah, it's one of those where I think it only really makes sense if you go solo/as a couple/intimate group where everyone cares a whole lot about Star Wars? Like "let's pay five times more because we love Star Wars that much" level of caring 

Yeah it's pretty extortionate pricing tbf, unless you plan on getting lots of autographs. Also, there is so much to buy from vendors on the show floor, you'll way prefer putting all that extra £££ towards that.

20 minutes ago, Julius said:

but with main panels not being shown online driving FOMO? 

god I hope they walk that back next year. Disastrous in what felt like an otherwise really well received 'con.

Tbh the main show floor at Anaheim was enormous but there was a lot of empty space surrounding the vendors, so if Excel is a bit smaller I don't think it'll be an issue really.

Argh that reminds me, PM me your address and I'll get those posters sent to you next week.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Ronnie

[Ronnie]

Quote from Tony Gilroy about the structure of Andor:

Quote

“The scale of the show is so huge. Directors work in blocks of three episodes, so we did four blocks [in Season 1] of three episodes each..

[For season 2, we] looked and said, ‘Wow, it’d be really interesting if we come back, and we use each block to represent a year. We’ll move a year closer with each block’. From a narrative point of view, it’s really exciting to be able to work on something where you do a Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and then jump a year.”

 

[darksnowman]

I've started into the Obi-Wan series and thought I was braced for all the mediocrity Star Wars could throw my way. I'm afraid I could have been mistaken and it matters not if you find my lack of faith disturbing.  

[darksnowman]

Cannot take the Grand Inquisitor seriously. He's just Death from Bill & Ted.  

[Hero-of-Time]

 

[Happenstance]

Yeah I think the Grand Inquisitor was probably the weakest part/character of the show to me.

[darksnowman]

Got finished up with Obi-Wan. I've enjoyed The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett however I found this Obi-Wan storyline was something I just didn't need to know about. Obviously, there was never going to be any true jeopardy because spoilers, the characters all star in A New Hope, but I still thought they'd be capable of slotting in something that provided a bit of decent insight into things. Especially with the low episode count, you don't expect these series to be filler/ inconsequential.

Sadly, it seemed poorly thought out, cheaply put together, and I just was never properly able to suspend my disbelief and get drawn into it.  

Tala was probably the most interesting, imo. 

[Julius]

1 hour ago, darksnowman said:

Got finished up with Obi-Wan. I've enjoyed The Mandalorian and Book of Boba Fett however I found this Obi-Wan storyline was something I just didn't need to know about. Obviously, there was never going to be any true jeopardy because spoilers, the characters all star in A New Hope, but I still thought they'd be capable of slotting in something that provided a bit of decent insight into things. Especially with the low episode count, you don't expect these series to be filler/ inconsequential.

Sadly, it seemed poorly thought out, cheaply put together, and I just was never properly able to suspend my disbelief and get drawn into it.  

Tala was probably the most interesting, imo. 

Well and concisely put darksnowman, I'd agree, especially with your mention of it being poorly thought out/cheaply put together side of things, I really think they made a whip for their own back writing this story as films, and then going "oh hold up, Disney+ is going to be a thing, let's make a miniseries instead!", because I could definitely feel the moments of padding at times. 

Good moments unfortunately don't make a great story, and I think Kenobi is a lesson Lucasfilm should learn a lot from moving forwards. Unfortunately, for me it just sours Ewan and Hayden coming back that tiniest bit, feel like corners were cut when they deserved so much more 

[bob]

Today I found out that the voice actor for Sebulba

in The Phantom Menace is the guy who voices Postman Pat.

 

My Postman Pat viewings will never be the same again.

 

 

 

 

[darksnowman]

On 16/07/2022 at 4:02 PM, Julius said:

Well and concisely put darksnowman, I'd agree, especially with your mention of it being poorly thought out/cheaply put together side of things, I really think they made a whip for their own back writing this story as films, and then going "oh hold up, Disney+ is going to be a thing, let's make a miniseries instead!", because I could definitely feel the moments of padding at times. 

Good moments unfortunately don't make a great story, and I think Kenobi is a lesson Lucasfilm should learn a lot from moving forwards. Unfortunately, for me it just sours Ewan and Hayden coming back that tiniest bit, feel like corners were cut when they deserved so much more 

There was plenty that needed to be reworked. I think I found it more interesting at the beginning when you're getting a glimpse at what his life became before the call to action kicked in and it goes from naff to naffer on a scene-to-scene basis.  

It was a pity that most of the time I was laughing at it rather than getting invested in it. Perhaps what they went for would have worked in the Clone Wars style though I've just come away with a feeling of meh, why bother if this is the end product?  

If they take lessons from it as you say, then great. But if they just keep cranking these series out in this state...

16 hours ago, bob said:

Today I found out that the voice actor for Sebulba

in The Phantom Menace is the guy who voices Postman Pat.

My Postman Pat viewings will never be the same again.

Episode I on the road to redemption.

I'll never look at my Postman Pat tapes in the same way.