Daft Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) Isn't the proof in the pudding? One successful console launch, one less successful (the 3DS) though rectified to an extent in a market that is being eaten away at by other mobile devices and an absolutely abysmal console launch, the Wii U. The inability to build on the success of the Wii, including no serious investment in Western studios – the West taking over from Japan as the home of videogames for at least a decade now. Only one new AAA IP that captured any of the public's imagination, Splatoon. A patchy portfolio of games; no racing sims, no FIFA, no standard fighting games, no great narratives, etc. (Probably got some of those wrong but you get the point) The move into microstransaction with Amiibos. A move into QoL devices which I would be amazed if they could compete in. Iwata knew his games but I think it was pretty evident he didn't really have a clue about business. Nintendo's mind-share is is ever decreasing and I don't think they'll ever get it back. People don't grow up with Nintendo nowadays. Kids play Xbox and Minecraft and Playstation and Candy Crush. Disclaimer. Don't take offence. This is my opinion from my anecdotal evidence as a professional industry analyst, for the most part. Kind of. Whatever. TL;DR – Iwata, great with games, blows at business. Edited September 7, 2015 by Daft
Sheikah Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Isn't the proof in the pudding? One successful console launch, one less successful (the 3DS) though rectified to an extent in a market that is being eaten away at by other mobile devices and an absolutely abysmal console launch, the Wii U. The inability to build on the success of the Wii, including no serious investment in Western studios – the West taking over from Japan as the home of videogames for at least a decade now. Only one new AAA IP that captured any of the public's imagination, Splatoon. A patchy portfolio of games; no racing sims, no FIFA, no standard fighting games, no great narratives, etc. (Probably got some of those wrong but you get the point) The move into microstransaction with Amiibos. A move into QoL devices which I would be amazed if they could compete in. Iwata knew his games but I think it was pretty evident he didn't really have a clue about business. Nintendo's mind-share is is ever decreasing and I don't think they'll ever get it back. People don't grow up with Nintendo nowadays. Kids play Xbox and Minecraft and Playstation and Candy Crush. Disclaimer. Don't take offence. This is my opinion from my anecdotal evidence as a professional industry analyst, for the most part. Kind of. Whatever. TL;DR – Iwata, great with games, blows at business. Pretty much this. Under Iwata's guidance Nintendo find themselves in the position they are right now. It's a bit sad, really. Amiibos and an unimpressive home console makes for sad times. Can't hold a candle to the Nintendo of old.
Hogge Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) From what I can discern from your post, it's only a gimmick because you don't like it. I noticed this at E3 last year with Tearaway Unfolded. They were demonstrating the controls with the touchpad on the Dualshock 4 controller, and people, many of whom I know are anti-Nintendo, were going on about how innovative it is. And yet if Nintendo were doing the same, they'd be trashing Nintendo saying how gimmicky it is. Nintendo doesn't just drop their innovations. That's one of the most absurd things ever. These gimmicks, as you call them, are a big part of the games and when successful, carry on to their successors as seen with the gliding in Mario Kart series. As seen with motion control in Zelda from TP to Skyward Sword and so forth. I think you're generalising the crap out of what he wrote. He didn't say that Nintendo don't make ANY innovations anymore. Let's face it, don't you think that after all the FLUDD-splashing, gravity manipulating and grid-worlding of the last two decades, it would be kind of refreshing to just play a good looking 3D platformer in the vein of SM64 again? Of course one embracing the advancements and conventions made since then. For the record, Nintendo do make good games still. Despite them "failing", their games are still among the most critically appraised games each year. How's that them just focusing on gimmicks? It's them making damned good games. Earlier you made the claim that they didn't put enough content in them, which is absurd. I think Darkjak's argument stands: they don't sell consoles. ALSO, really? You're complaining about art styles? Are you actually serious with that complaint? Do you really want everything to be homogenised, with everything going for realism or one set art style for each series? That's stagnation to the max. Isn't it logical? One franchise= One identity =One art style. It's not about stagnation, it's about not splitting your audience in to camps. Edited September 7, 2015 by Hogge
Serebii Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 I think you're generalising the crap out of what he wrote. He didn't say that Nintendo don't make ANY innovations anymore.Let's face it, don't you think that after all the FLUDD-splashing, gravity manipulating and grid-worlding of the last two decades, it would be kind of refreshing to just play a good looking 3D platformer in the vein of SM64 again? I didn't say that, but to dismiss some of the most amazing games of all time because they have what he calls "gimmicks" is absurd Isn't it logical? One franchise= One identity =One art style.It's not about stagnation, it's about not splitting your audience in to camps. No, not really. Art style experimentation is amazing, and it helps keep game series fresh. Not to mention allows for being able to discern what game it is in the series much easier, because each game has a style that fits the mood of the game, the tone, the story and so forth. Give me screenshots of any of the Call of Duty last gen and I'd struggle to point out which is which, despite sinking scores of hours into them.
Ronnie Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Isn't the proof in the pudding? One successful console launch, one less successful (the 3DS) though rectified to an extent in a market that is being eaten away at by other mobile devices and an absolutely abysmal console launch, the Wii U. 100 million Wii's sold. 150 million DS's sold. 50 million 3DS's sold right in the middle of tablet and mobile gaming revolution. The Wii U failure being the exception to the success stories above. A patchy portfolio of games; no racing sims, no FIFA, no standard fighting games, no great narratives, etc. (Probably got some of those wrong but you get the point) You can put that down to no third party support. First party wise there's huge variety with their content. The move into microstransaction with Amiibos. Hardly. Microtransactions are what's becoming more and more commonplace with the competition. Day 1 DLC, pre-order bonuses, extra content on one console but not the other. Playstation and Xbox AAA games are filled with bullshit like this. Even Tearaway on PS4 is getting this treatment ffs. Amiibos are action figures with NFC functionality as a bonus. MULTI-GAME bonuses. Iwata knew his games but I think it was pretty evident he didn't really have a clue about business. I'd love to be clueless about business and sell 250 million Wii and DS's in 6 years. Getting people who would never have considered picking up a PS4 controller and playing games. Nintendo's mind-share is is ever decreasing and I don't think they'll ever get it back. People don't grow up with Nintendo nowadays. Kids play Xbox and Minecraft and Playstation and Candy Crush. That's simply not true. Just look at the amount of kids playing 3DS or the Super Mario happy meal on at McDonalds at the moment. The deal Iwata brokered with Universal Studios, the move to mobile gaming which you didn't mention...
darksnowman Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 That's simply not true. Just look at the amount of kids playing 3DS or the Super Mario happy meal on at McDonalds at the moment. The deal Iwata brokered with Universal Studios, the move to mobile gaming which you didn't mention... Not to forget other deals like getting Monster Hunter and bringing Final Fantasy and Square back (in any capacity!) after the N64 days.
Hogge Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 I didn't say that, but to dismiss some of the most amazing games of all time because they have what he calls "gimmicks" is absurd I don't think he's saying they're bad. What his point seems to be, which I agree with to 100% is that gimmicks aren't necessary when Nintendo release so few games in each franchise. Had Nintendo released 3D Marios and 3D Zeldas as often as Sega release 3D Sonics, and the 3D Marios gave an equally bad taste in the consumers' mouth, then the gimmicks would've been called for. As is now, the gimmicks just distract and divide players. No, not really. Art style experimentation is amazing, and it helps keep game series fresh. Not to mention allows for being able to discern what game it is in the series much easier, because each game has a style that fits the mood of the game, the tone, the story and so forth. Give me screenshots of any of the Call of Duty last gen and I'd struggle to point out which is which, despite sinking scores of hours into them. You can vary the tone without fundamentally changing the art style entirely. I think you quite easily could tell the difference between the 3D GTA games. The genericness of GTA III, the pastels and kitch of Vice City and the constantly yellowed out style of San Andreas. The grey and orange autumn of GTA IV and the sun drenched open landscapes of GTAV.
Serebii Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 I don't think he's saying they're bad. What his point seems to be, which I agree with to 100% is that gimmicks aren't necessary when Nintendo release so few games in each franchise. Had Nintendo released 3D Marios and 3D Zeldas as often as Sega release 3D Sonics, and the 3D Marios gave an equally bad taste in the consumers' mouth, then the gimmicks would've been called for. As is now, the gimmicks just distract and divide players. You can vary the tone without fundamentally changing the art style entirely. I think you quite easily could tell the difference between the 3D GTA games. The genericness of GTA III, the pastels and kitch of Vice City and the constantly yellowed out style of San Andreas. The grey and orange autumn of GTA IV and the sun drenched open landscapes of GTAV. "Gimmicks" don't distract and divide players. That's absurd. Gimmicks make the games unique. Different from what came before, and what may come after. It gives the game identity and what helps keep the game in the minds of people long after their successors came out.
Sheikah Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Amiibos are action figures with NFC functionality as a bonus. MULTI-GAME bonuses. Nintendo must love you. You're justifying their DLC in perfect marketing language.
Daft Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) 100 million Wii's sold.150 million DS's sold. 50 million 3DS's sold right in the middle of tablet and mobile gaming revolution. The Wii U failure being the exception to the success stories above. You can put that down to no third party support. First party wise there's huge variety with their content. Hardly. Microtransactions are what's becoming more and more commonplace with the competition. Day 1 DLC, pre-order bonuses, extra content on one console but not the other. Playstation and Xbox AAA games are filled with bullshit like this. Even Tearaway on PS4 is getting this treatment ffs. Amiibos are action figures with NFC functionality as a bonus. MULTI-GAME bonuses. I'd love to be clueless about business and sell 250 million Wii and DS's in 6 years. Getting people who would never have considered picking up a PS4 controller and playing games. That's simply not true. Just look at the amount of kids playing 3DS or the Super Mario happy meal on at McDonalds at the moment. The deal Iwata brokered with Universal Studios, the move to mobile gaming which you didn't mention... If you ignore portables, which Nintendo has a formidable record, the Wii is the statistical anomaly, not the Wii U; progressively decreasing sales for each home console. It doesn't matter the reason, third party or not, the portfolio of games is patchy. and variety doesn't mean that they have filled every genre covered. We've already had the Amiibo discussion. There are upsides and downsides. Again, ignoring the other market that is portables – that Nintendo is very successful in – the Wii is a statistical anomaly. No one who is good at business, goes from selling over 100 million units of a console to 10 million and crawling. [Edit: WITH a whole year's head-start on the competition, lest we forget.] And, obviously totally anecdotally (manly from people I know who are teachers), kids seem to care much more about Minecraft and superheroes than a fat italian plumber. And playing the 3DS? I see more kids playing on their phones. But this is a pointless 'I saw this/I saw that' argument. You'd have to look at things like social media, like this. Edited September 7, 2015 by Daft
Hogge Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 100 million Wii's sold.150 million DS's sold. 50 million 3DS's sold right in the middle of tablet and mobile gaming revolution. The Wii U failure being the exception to the success stories above. Granted, that's a good point. However, the decision to focus on Wii was disastrous in the long run. You can put that down to no third party support. First party wise there's huge variety with their content. Umm... no. First party wise there's an over abundance of sidescrollers and minigame compilations. Those two genres are literally half the content that first and second parties have churned out. Those are not genres that sell very many consoles (Oh, look guys, I just bought the most powerful console in the world. It has... Mario Bros... which just barelly looks better than the DS version... Don't you want one too?) That's simply not true. Just look at the amount of kids playing 3DS or the Super Mario happy meal on at McDonalds at the moment. The deal Iwata brokered with Universal Studios, the move to mobile gaming which you didn't mention... Sorry, I haven't seen ANY kids playing the 3DS. They're playing on their phones. We have no idea what the Universal Studios will bring, but I can tell you that he could EASILY have made that deal in 2002, since Nintendo were a lot more popular back then.
Serebii Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Umm... no. First party wise there's an over abundance of sidescrollers and minigame compilations. Those two genres are literally half the content that first and second parties have churned out. Those are not genres that sell very many consoles (Oh, look guys, I just bought the most powerful console in the world. It has... Mario Bros... which just barelly looks better than the DS version... Don't you want one too?) Ok, I have to stop you right here. There's a perceived abundance, but there isn't actually. Nintendo Published/Financed Wii U titles New Super Mario Bros. U Nintendo Land Sing Party Game & Wario Lego City Undercover Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games New Super Luigi U (DLC) Pikmin 3 Super Mario 3D World Sonic Lost World The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD The Wonderful 101 Wii Party U Animal Crossing Plaza Art Academy: SketchPad Dr. Luigi NES Remix New Super Luigi U Pokémon Rumble U Wii Fit U Wii Karaoke U by JOYSOUND Wii Sports Club Bayonetta Bayonetta 2 Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Fatal Frame: Maiden of Black Water Hyrule Warriors Mario Kart 8 Super Smash Bros. for Wii U Wii Fit U NES Remix 2 Pushmo World Animal Crossing: Amiibo Festival Art Academy: Home Studio ( Devil's Third Kirby and the Rainbow Curse Mario Party 10 Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash Project Guard Splatoon Star Fox Zero Super Mario Maker Yoshi's Woolly World Xenoblade Chronicles X amiibo tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars Genei Ibun Roku X FE The Legend of Zelda Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games Pokkén Tournament Total: 51 Now, let's count. 2D Platformers: New Super Mario Bros. U New Super Luigi U (DLC) Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Yoshi's Woolly World Total: 4 - 7% of Nintendo's titles Mini-game Collections Nintendo Land Sing Party Game & Wario Lego City Undercover Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games Wii Party U Wii Sports Club (I'll give you that) Mario Party 10 Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games Total: 9 - 17% of Nintendo's titles. That's not even a quarter of their output.
Retro_Link Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 So many people said they were getting fed up and bored of games before the DS and then the Wii came along and breathed new life into our hobby.Following the Dreamcast/Gamecube era?....... Who were these people! :p
Retro_Link Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 100 million Wii's sold.150 million DS's sold. 50 million 3DS's sold right in the middle of tablet and mobile gaming revolution. The Wii U failure being the exception to the success stories above. Just want to point out though that the Wii was an anomaly in a continual decline in Nintendo's console sales. They do need to give what they're doing in that market a long hard think.
darksnowman Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Yeah I hate it when people say nice things about recently dead people. Dude. I know this is a thread about honesty but please, a little respect, eh? Following the Dreamcast/Gamecube era?....... Who were these people! :p Yes, I know, great games on each console (Skies of Arcadia on BOTH!) but ya know what I was getting at.
Retro_Link Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 I'm not sure I remember those complaints, but I take your word for it.
Hogge Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Let me fix that for you: Total: 51 Now, let's count. 2D Platformers: New Super Mario Bros. U New Super Luigi U (DLC) Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Yoshi's Woolly World Mario Maker Kirby and the Rainbow Curse Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars Total: 7 Mini-game Collections amiibo tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits Animal Crossing Plaza Nintendo Land Sing Party Game & Wario Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games Wii Party U Wii Fit U Wii Sports Club (I'll give you that) Mario Party 10 Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games NES Remix NES Remix 2 Total: 14 Not actual games: Art Academy: SketchPad Art Academy: Home Studio I count 21 games in two genres. And then I was generous for not considering Mario vs Donkey Kong or Wii Karaoke any of those two categories. Remove the Art Academy games for not actually being games and we end up with a total of 49 published games. Let's not forget that Project Guard is likely to either become a minigame compilation or be part of one. We end up with 48. So these two genres make up a whopping 44% of their lineup. So sorry, my numbers were ever so slightly out of date, since Pokken hadn't been announced when I made my research.
Serebii Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Let me fix that for you: Total: 51 Now, let's count. 2D Platformers: New Super Mario Bros. U New Super Luigi U (DLC) Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze Yoshi's Woolly World Mario Maker Kirby and the Rainbow Curse Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars Total: 7 Mini-game Collections amiibo tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits Animal Crossing Plaza Nintendo Land Sing Party Game & Wario Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games Wii Party U Wii Fit U Wii Sports Club (I'll give you that) Mario Party 10 Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games NES Remix NES Remix 2 Total: 14 Not actual games: Art Academy: SketchPad Art Academy: Home Studio I count 21 games in two genres. And then I was generous for not considering Mario vs Donkey Kong or Wii Karaoke any of those two categories. Remove the Art Academy games for not actually being games and we end up with a total of 49 published games. Let's not forget that Project Guard is likely to either become a minigame compilation or be part of one. We end up with 48. So these two genres make up a whopping 44% of their lineup. So sorry, my numbers were ever so slightly out of date, since Pokken hadn't been announced when I made my research. Hmmmmm........... I disagree with NES Remix being mini-games. Same with Animal Crossing Plaza and even Wii Fit U. The mini-games in there are a small part of it. Sing Party isn't a mini-game collection either. And those are actual games. Just because you don't play them or don't like them, they are still software developed and output by Nintendo.
Ronnie Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Umm... no. First party wise there's an over abundance of sidescrollers and minigame compilations. Those two genres are literally half the content that first and second parties have churned out. Those are not genres that sell very many consoles (Oh, look guys, I just bought the most powerful console in the world. It has... Mario Bros... which just barelly looks better than the DS version... Don't you want one too?) Ummm... yes. New Super Mario Bros. U (2D Platformer), Nintendo Land (Mini game compilation) Lego City Undercover (openworld adventure) Mario & Sonic (Sports) Pikmin 3 (RTS) Super Mario 3D World (3D Platformer) Zelda: The Wind Waker (Adventure) The Wonderful 101 (Action/Strategy) Bayonetta 2 (Action) Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (Puzzle) Zombi U (survival horror) Hyrule Warriors (Hack and slash) Mario Kart 8 (kart racer) Super Smash Bros. for Wii U (brawler) NES Remix (??) Devil's Third (shooter) Mario Party 10 (party game) Splatoon (multiplayer shooter) Star Fox Zero (arcade shoot-em-up) Super Mario Maker (level creator) Xenoblade Chronicles X (RPG) Pokkén Tournament (beat-em-up) Mario U, DK, Yoshi and Kirby. Four 2D platformers in three years. Five if you want to count Mario Maker. The above are just one example per category. There are obviously more for each. And I of course didn't get into any indie games, just the big Wii U titles. Nintendo must love you. You're justifying their DLC in perfect marketing language. Give me Nintendo's style of multi-game DLC any day over the screwing the consumer approach of its two competitors.
Sheikah Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Give me the complete games at day 1 over buying the games and £15 toys any day. Is this what we're doing now? Comparing reality with something else to make it seem a bit less shit?
Serebii Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Give me the complete games at day 1 over buying the games and £15 toys any day. Is this what we're doing now? Comparing reality with something else to make it seem a bit less shit? They are complete at launch, my friend.
Ronnie Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Give me the complete games at day 1 over buying the games and £15 toys any day. I assume you don't buy any games with a 'Season Pass' then? Incomplete game but spend another £15 for a fraction of the content they didn't want to put in the original release. Compare and contrast to Nintendo's most 'incomplete' game, Splatoon, where we've gotten weekly updates for free.
Hogge Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Hmmmmm........... I disagree with NES Remix being mini-games. Same with Animal Crossing Plaza and even Wii Fit U. The mini-games in there are a small part of it. Sing Party isn't a mini-game collection either. Well, what are they? And the fact remains: do you think anyone'll buy a Wii U to play any of those games? And those are actual games. Just because you don't play them or don't like them, they are still software developed and output by Nintendo. The Art Academy series? They are indeed software. But not games.
Sheikah Posted September 7, 2015 Posted September 7, 2015 Season pass is for DLC made post release. The amiibo content is already on the disc. We've already had this discussion before though, so unless there's anything more to add...
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