Ronnie Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 Now we're complaining that Iwata came up with the idea to start selling amiibo. Great.
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Now we're complaining that Iwata came up with the idea to start selling amiibo. Great. Yeah, but he didn't come up with the entire idea of NFC, "toys-to-life", or oxygen so clearly he's a hack who doesn't know the industry. The problem with Wii and others is that they're wanting Nintendo to emulate/beat MS and Sony, which is not possible. They don't have the money for it, that's part of why they can't market as well. They can't just throw money at exclusives etc. like Sony and MS do. It's a sad fact but Nintendo will always be the "second" console or the niche console. Would it be nice for Nintendo to have a console that's at the top of the industry again? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. Their competitors are huge corporations with money to throw around like crazy. They can spend millions on just getting an exclusive, or just exclusive DLC. Nintendo cannot do that. Edited March 22, 2015 by Serebii
Retro_Link Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Now we're complaining that Iwata came up with the idea to start selling amiibo. Great.By 'we', you mean just @Wii. Yeah, but he didn't come up with the entire idea of NFC, "toys-to-life", or oxygen so clearly he's a hack who doesn't know the industry. The problem with Wii and others is that they're wanting Nintendo to emulate/beat MS and Sony, which is not possible. They don't have the money for it, that's part of why they can't market as well. They can't just throw money at exclusives etc. like Sony and MS do. It's a sad fact but Nintendo will always be the "second" console or the niche console. Would it be nice for Nintendo to have a console that's at the top of the industry again? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. Their competitors are huge corporations with money to throw around like crazy. They can spend millions on just getting an exclusive, or just exclusive DLC. Nintendo cannot do that. I don't think anyone wants them to emulate Sony and Microsoft, but there's certainly a lot of lessons they could learn from their consoles. I'd just like them to make better use of their franchises, and incorporate features into them that have been considered industry standard for a number of years now.
Wii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Yeah, but he didn't come up with the entire idea of NFC, "toys-to-life", or oxygen so clearly he's a hack who doesn't know the industry. The problem with Wii and others is that they're wanting Nintendo to emulate/beat MS and Sony, which is not possible. They don't have the money for it, that's part of why they can't market as well. They can't just throw money at exclusives etc. like Sony and MS do. It's a sad fact but Nintendo will always be the "second" console or the niche console. Would it be nice for Nintendo to have a console that's at the top of the industry again? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. Their competitors are huge corporations with money to throw around like crazy. They can spend millions on just getting an exclusive, or just exclusive DLC. Nintendo cannot do that. That's a real defeatist attitude. Of course it's possible to beat Sony and Microsoft. It certainly won't happen by not trying. You only need to look at Apple to see anything's possible.
Retro_Link Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Yeah tbf Nintendo did 'beat' Sony and Microsoft with the Wii, it just wasn't sustainable. Nintendo would say they weren't and aren't in competition with them, but for those 2-3 years it must have felt pretty amazing inside Nintendo.
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 That's a real defeatist attitude. Of course it's possible to beat Sony and Microsoft. It certainly won't happen by not trying. You only need to look at Apple to see anything's possible. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's the state of the industry. This day and age, MS and Sony are throwing money to moneyhat exclusives (including with indies), exclusive content and so forth and Nintendo can't do that. @Retro_Link is right in that they do need to adopt some industry standards (like the account stuff that is FINALLY coming) and use some of their legacy franchises more, but they cannot and should not compete with these massive corporations and their money because, frankly, they cannot. MS and Sony have lost so much money in their divisions, Sony has barely seen a profit overall (largely thanks to the mess of the PS3) and Microsoft hasn't at all. Nintendo cannot operate like that...they can't just take ridiculous losses to build up an audience with the hope of building money back later. It's not a possibility.
Clownferret Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 The problem with Wii and others is that they're wanting Nintendo to emulate/beat MS and Sony, which is not possible. They don't have the money for it, that's part of why they can't market as well. They can't just throw money at exclusives etc. like Sony and MS do. It's a sad fact but Nintendo will always be the "second" console or the niche console. Would it be nice for Nintendo to have a console that's at the top of the industry again? Absolutely. Is it likely? No. Their competitors are huge corporations with money to throw around like crazy. They can spend millions on just getting an exclusive, or just exclusive DLC. Nintendo cannot do that. WTF! Nintendo beat both of them last gen and then had the additional handheld market all sewn up. Microsoft may have money to burn but Sony certainly don't. I'll always buy a Nintendo console and love their games more than any others, but they broke most of their launch promises and now we are left with a platformer console.
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 WTF! Nintendo beat both of them last gen and then had the additional handheld market all sewn up. Microsoft may have money to burn but Sony certainly don't.I'll always buy a Nintendo console and love their games more than any others, but they broke most of their launch promises and now we are left with a platformer console. They got lucky because they tapped a then un-tapped market. In terms of "core" gamers, they don't appeal and they can't appeal without the third party heavyhitters that MS and Sony keep throwing money at for exclusive content.
drahkon Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 the third party heavyhitters that MS and Sony keep throwing money at for exclusive content. It's always about the money, not the good relations between the different parties, right?
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 It's always about the money, not the good relations between the different parties, right? Money helps to build relations. Nowhere did I say that Nintendo didn't need to improve third party relationships. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.
drahkon Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Please refrain from putting words in my mouth. I didn't do anything like that Your phrasing however makes it sound like: "Sony and MS only get third party games because they pay shitloads of money to developers." Which is simply not true, hence my post. For the future: If you have two points to make, why not just write down both?
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I didn't do anything like that Your phrasing however makes it sound like: "Sony and MS only get third party games because they pay shitloads of money to developers." Which is simply not true, hence my post. For the future: If you have two points to make, why not just write down both? Well I wasn't making a statement about third party relations, so me saying that wouldn't have been germane to the discussion
drahkon Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Well I wasn't making a statement about third party relations And yet you agreed that money helps build relations. While you didn't say so in your post it certainly hid behind what you said. Anyway, this was actually about my point that money isn't the one key that gets third parties on board.
Retro_Link Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 WTF! Nintendo beat both of them last gen and then had the additional handheld market all sewn up. Microsoft may have money to burn but Sony certainly don't.I'll always buy a Nintendo console and love their games more than any others, but they broke most of their launch promises and now we are left with a platformer console. Technically I'm not sure you could say they beat them, which is why I was quite careful wording it, because come the end of the generation the other two consoles had matched Wii sales I think, because there was such a fall off from that console. --- IGN had a great conversation about how Nintebdo can use the likes of Amiibo and Mobile mini games to bring in extra revenue streams that will keep them able to keep doing what they're doing/experimenting in the console market, as well as keep them relevant for the years to come.
Sheikah Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) MS and Sony have lost so much money in their divisions, Sony has barely seen a profit overall (largely thanks to the mess of the PS3) and Microsoft hasn't at all. Nintendo cannot operate like that...they can't just take ridiculous losses to build up an audience with the hope of building money back later. It's not a possibility. It was shown recently that Playstation brought in £3 billion for Sony and it made more revenue for them than any other of their divisions. Their gaming division is clearly very successful and Nintendo would do well to learn from what they're doing. Edited March 22, 2015 by Sheikah
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) It was show recently that Playstation brought in £3 billion for Sony and it made more revenue for them than any other of their divisions. Their gaming division is clearly very successful and Nintendo would do well to learn from what they're doing. I'm talking in the grand scheme of things, not just now. Yeesh. Also, that's revenue, not profit. I was talking profit. Around 5% of that revenue is profit. Edited March 22, 2015 by Serebii
Mr-Paul Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I think you do have to note that Serebii is talking about profit, not revenue. Playstation still isn't massively profitable, despite their recent success. Even if we do look at revenue, Nintendo's revenue for the same period was almost the same as Playstation's revenue (around £2.8bn). Of course, a large chunk of that would have come from 3DS. No denying that the PS4 has been massively successful and there are definitely things that Nintendo should learn from Sony, but in terms of loss-leading hardware, Nintendo probably can't really compete on the same scale. I know that there was only a £50 difference in price between the launch prices of PS4/Wii U, but that comes down to the inclusion of the gamepad, which we can probably say was a commercial mistake, regardless of your views on how good it is as a controller/feature of the console. (Didn't see Serebii's above post while writing mine!)
Sheikah Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I'm talking in the grand scheme of things, not just now. Yeesh. I'm doubtful of your 'on the whole' argument too. Is your point that the PS3 made no profit in the end? Or do you not have a point and just want to bitch about the PS3? My point is very clear - what Sony have done with the PS4 is not only popular but it's also making them great money. If you're going to bring in arguments about them losing money at some point in the past, I'm going to show you how amazing they're doing now in order to show that doing what they're doing these days is a good idea.
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I'm doubtful of your 'on the whole' argument too. Is your point that the PS3 made no profit in the end? Or do you not have a point and just want to bitch about the PS3? My point is very clear - what Sony have done with the PS4 is not only popular but it's also making them great money. If you're going to bring in arguments about them losing money at some point in the past, I'm going to show you how amazing they're doing now in order to show that doing what they're doing these days is a good idea. So Nintendo need to learn how to make a 5% total profit with a wildly successful console which sells lots of games, has subscription charges etc. Yeah, good thing they haven't learned that.
Sheikah Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I think you do have to note that Serebii is talking about profit, not revenue. Playstation still isn't massively profitable, despite their recent success. Even if we do look at revenue, Nintendo's revenue for the same period was almost the same as Playstation's revenue (around £2.8bn). Of course, a large chunk of that would have come from 3DS. No denying that the PS4 has been massively successful and there are definitely things that Nintendo should learn from Sony, but in terms of loss-leading hardware, Nintendo probably can't really compete on the same scale. I know that there was only a £50 difference in price between the launch prices of PS4/Wii U, but that comes down to the inclusion of the gamepad, which we can probably say was a commercial mistake, regardless of your views on how good it is as a controller/feature of the console. (Didn't see Serebii's above post while writing mine!) Where are you getting the information about Playstation not being massively profitable? Specifically with regards to their PS4, not past figures. I like to see supporting facts when people start talking about sales, like I gave.
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Where are you getting the information about Playstation not being massively profitable? Specifically with regards to their PS4, not past figures. I like to see supporting facts when people start talking about sales, like I gave. Simple mathematics. Check their financial reports http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/14q3_sony.pdf $4.3bn revenue, sure, but only $228m profit. Btw, way to turn my point into a pissing contest about who makes more, which wasn't the point I was trying to make. You always find one thing you can pick at and turn the whole argument into that. Edited March 22, 2015 by Serebii
Sheikah Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Not so much simple mathematics @Serebii, simple including the figures/sources when you start talking figures is all I ask. I actually have no idea why this is even a point. It's obvious that you should sell your system either at a small profit or even a small loss, to get a foothold. You say that it's not good to make this level of profit and this is a bad thing to learn from the competition. That may be with the 3DS where there is little direct competition, but not so for home console. You can see that PS4 is selling buckets and it completely out manoeuvred the X1, and was priced well even against the Wii U. I literally have no idea how you could argue that this is not a good business strategy! Edited March 22, 2015 by Sheikah
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Not so much simple mathematics @Serebii, simple including the figures/sources when you start talking figures is all I ask. I actually have no idea why this is even a point. It's obvious that you should sell your system either at a small profit or even a small loss, to get a foothold. You say that it's not good to make this level of profit and this is a bad thing to learn from the competition. That may be with the 3DS where there is little direct competition, but not so for home console. You can see that PS4 is selling buckets and it completely out manoeuvred the X1, and was priced well even against the Wii U. I literally have no idea how you could argue that this is not a good business strategy! What's that? I can't hear you over all the backpedalling.
Sheikah Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) What backpeddling? Someone said it's not very profitable and I asked for proof. Have I gone back on any words? No! I'm not even convinced that it's not very profitable actually, but then I don't run a games company and know what figure is considered great. Serebii, your whole point has been 'Sony/MS lose money, Nintendo shouldn't copy them'. And yet...you just showed they made a profit? Ok. I also think contrary to you that they should aim to sell hardware cheaper at less profit; production costs will go down after time anyway, better to get people tied to your console and buy your games/services. It's so account/loyalty driven these days, something Nintendo aren't even able to be part of since they're behind on that. If they make less profit then so be it, if that means savings are passed on to us and we adopt it in higher numbers. Nexus range devices have done the same thing and they really took off. Edited March 22, 2015 by Sheikah
Serebii Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 You came in here with stuff that was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, then came accusing me of not bringing statistics to refute you, when the said statistics were on the very link you provided. You have derailed the thread due to your attempt to "correct" me. Also, to compare with Q4 2007, when Nintendo was doing well, net sales were at 1,316,434,000,000 Yen, which is approx. $11bn and profit of which was $3bn. So, clearly Nintendo knows business better as they can derive more profit statistically from the money they make. A ~28% profit compared to a 5% profit It's not Nintendo needing to learn from Sony, it's Nintendo having to get things to sell. Now, can we get back to the topic at hand, or do you wish to derail it further?
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