Wii U General Discussion

[Rummy]

The best N64 controller was the GC one. Man it's so perfect Nintendo just need ONE controller for their next console.

 

Make up your mind!

 

I must admit I haven't given it any in-depth analysis, but something about the Wii U Pro, whilst it does work, does put me off on some level that I've never placed. The PS2/3 pads been similar for something different, and I think my favourite recent pad has been the 360 pad. Feels quite right in my hands. Ofc I still love the GC and N64 pads from the previous gens, the GC pad could be flawed on occasion though(here's looking at you direct button mapping Super Mario World VC).

[Sheikah]

You've more belief in Nintendo regarding making controllers? :p This is the company that made one of the most comfortable controllers but then ditched everything about it and made the Wii U Pro controller. And also the company that made the gamepad as their main controller...which is essentially a slab with buttons that cost them a fortune.

 

Regarding FPS knowledge they have, what, one (relatively unorthodox) FPS series? Maybe one more that I'm forgetting? Metroid Prime...so they're hardly the experts in the shooter field, are they? We know that Nintendo don't ask what third party devs want hence they ended up with the Wii U...if they really had consulted devs about making it FPS friendly it wouldn't have had shitsauce triggers nor would the console be so underpowered that it'll soon miss out on most new FPS titles.

 

I'd also argue that while the Wii Remote was a fun way to control an FPS there's not a chance in hell we can consider it provides the same accuracy as a controller. You'll never find professional FPS players wanting to use that as their primary control (Ok, it's keyboard and mouse for them, but motion controls would no doubt rank lower still). Your ability to point a controller at a place on the screen is several degrees less accurate than your ability to finely tune a control stick.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Sheikah

[Serebii]

Nope, it's definitely unnatural. I have a lot to compare it to, and it's certainly not a case of unfamiliarity. For example, the 360 pad switched the left analogue and D-pad but using the stick still feels natural, as either position works (although one renders the D-pad a bit useless).

 

Here, though...the way you must position your hand to reach the lower buttons is like how you might position your hand on the 360 pad to reach the D-pad. It has never and will never feel good.

How the hell are you holding your controllers to the point it's an issue? It's really not.

 

Please tell me as I cannot fathom it.

 

Using the Dualshock is akin to this...

 

Please tell me that's not how you used the N64 controller, too.

[Daft]

It only feels unnatural because you are unaccustomed to it. It took me one day to get used to it, that's all. It's not "unnatural", it's just foreign to you.

 

This. If you're complaining about any controller (beyond lacking functionality, like analogue triggers) you're just not used to it.

 

How anyone has a problem with the DS4, Xbox or GamePad controller is beyond me.

[Sheikah]

LOL, what on Earth are you talking about? I literally have no clue.

 

In what way is that like using the Dualshock?

[Serebii]

This. If you're complaining about any controller (beyond lacking functionality, like analogue triggers) you're just not used to it.

 

How anyone has a problem with the DS4, Xbox or GamePad controller is beyond me.

Good god. Did you just agree with me?

 

Well, the world is ending.

[Fierce_LiNk]

How the hell are you holding your controllers to the point it's an issue? It's really not.

 

Please tell me as I cannot fathom it.

 

Using the Dualshock is akin to this...

 

Please tell me that's not how you used the N64 controller, too.

 

Lol at the image, using the DS4 isn't like that. It's actually very, very comfortable. It's also very easy to switch between left stick and d-pad and also right stick and face buttons. The Pro Controller just isn't as easy in this respect, at least in my opinion anyway. Your hands have to either do this awkward stretch (since moving from the stick position outward to the face buttons is an unnatural stretch as you're going against the way your hand moves. With the DS4, to switch from stick to buttons, your thumb moves closer to the rest of your hand, therefore it's easier and less straining on your hands)

 

Also, with regards to the earlier point about motion controls: Yes, the Wiimote is better than all of the above. However, Microsoft didn't adopt it for a multitude of reasons. It would cost the consumer a lot of money, it would give developers more headaches when developing control schemes, etc. For shooters, it's great. It's good for racers, too, but then it also missed features like the analogue triggers which are just as essential for accelerating and braking as the motion controls are for steering, something which Nintendo overlooked.

 

Either way, the Pro Controller is fine as a controller, but it's not the best there is out there and certainly isn't the best that Nintendo have come up with. In some ways, they've regressed since the GC pad.

[Serebii]

Lol at the image, using the DS4 isn't like that. It's actually very, very comfortable. It's also very easy to switch between left stick and d-pad and also right stick and face buttons. The Pro Controller just isn't as easy in this respect, at least in my opinion anyway. Your hands have to either do this awkward stretch (since moving from the stick position outward to the face buttons is an unnatural stretch as you're going against the way your hand moves. With the DS4, to switch from stick to buttons, your thumb moves closer to the rest of your hand, therefore it's easier and less straining on your hands)

 

For me it is. Using the analogue sticks requires too much stretching of the thumbs. It's uncomfortable for me :/

[Daft]

Good god. Did you just agree with me?

 

Well, the world is ending.

 

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

[drahkon]

For me it is. Using the analogue sticks requires too much stretching of the thumbs. It's uncomfortable for me :/

 

How tiny are your hands? Or rather your thumbs?

 

Anyway, Daft agreed with Serebii. /thread

[Sheikah]

For me it is. Using the analogue sticks requires too much stretching of the thumbs. It's uncomfortable for me :/

 

Whaaa, you're just making this up now.

 

Look at that N64 controller image. The control stick is dead center in the controller - on the DS4 the left stick is essentially where the N64 D-pad is (but a little bit lower). The stretching you do with the N64 in that position is nowhere near like with the DS4. If you disagree, then by all means upload an image of you using a DS4, because nobody is buying that.

 

No idea why we're even arguing this as you don't have a PS4 and clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Sheikah

[Serebii]

Yeah, me not having one clearly means I haven't had extensive time with one. Of course. It all makes perfect sense now.

[drahkon]

Using the Dualshock is akin to this...

 

To be fair, if you're using the Dualshock akin to this you appear to be only using the right analogue stick with your left thumb :p

 

But seriously, how short are your thumbs if you have to stretch them using the sticks?

I mean:

 

 

Analogue sticks on both controllers are pretty much the same distance away from the grips, so I really don't understand how you can have a problem with the DS4 (I am assuming you don't have a problem with the Wii U Pro Controller, if you do, sorry).

 

I don't want to call you out on anything, I'm seriously just trying to understand why you have that problem. It's the first time I've heard about it from anyone ever playing video games.

[Serebii]

I hate the control stick placement on the Classic Controller too, for the same reason, so...

[drahkon]

I see. Then forget my post :P

 

But I'd really love to see your thumbs

[Wii]

I'm sorry, but the might and experience of the other console designers prove it's anything but wrong. As Microsoft's console is FPS and shooter dominated don't think for a second that they wouldn't have done this if it was better. It's just a lot worse... like Flink said, it requires you to do a rather unnatural movement with your right hand to access the buttons. Yet accessing the right stick, and making fine precision movements, is not difficult at all on the other controllers. What you're describing simply does not match up to the experience - certainly not the countless hours of experience I have with both 360/PS3 pads anyway.

 

We can much more easily put this down to Nintendo not really thinking things through when they made this when you consider that you're arguing this is great for FPS - on a console with next to no first party/3rd party FPS.

 

[Kav]

@Sheikah you'll not find professional player using the Wiimote because the Wii was never on the professional circuit and they're used to using analogue sticks. The speed at which I can acquire targets using a Wiimote will not be bettered by an analogue stick. Then when it comes to multiple targets they've no chanc in keeping up with a Wiimote.

 

Also, I'm not suggesting Nintendo were thinking of FPS games when designing their controller. I'm suggesting they have thought into what's the most natural position for your hands/thumb to be in when holding a controller and using the different input methods. The left analogue stick is it's most natural position, its effectively in the same position as the N64 pad, so they've mirrored it with the WiiU. That they didn't include analogue triggers is an oversight I agree but how many games actually ise the analogue input on triggers, funnily enough, not all that many outside of the racing genre... still, they should have included them, that I agree with.

 

What I believe with the other consoles is this:

Sony: Nintendo have done that right, we need analogue sticks, but we don't want to drastically change our pad, lets stick them here.

Microsoft: We need analogue sticks, let's move the one that controls the character to the most natural position for it like when holding the middle prong on the N64 pad, because this will be the main input method. We'll keep the buttons where they are as they have always been there and people used the right analogue where it was I the Playstation before... except we'll also put the black and white buttons in a stupid place and make the pad huge.

 

They've stayed as they are because that's how things have been and they've wanted to keep uniformity across consoles.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Kav

[Sheikah]

@Sheikah you'll not find professional player using the Wiimote because the Wii was never on the professional circuit and they're used to using analogue sticks. The speed at which I can acquire targets using a Wiimote will not be bettered by an analogue stick. Then when it comes to multiple targets they've no chanc in keeping up with a Wiimote.

 

Maybe you would, but I'm saying that control sticks offer better accuracy (and sensitivity adjustment would up your speed to). There's absolutely no doubt that your thumbs or fingers have greater dexterity to allow precise aiming than the movement of your arm. Yeah, it can be fun for a while to feel like you're actually aiming a gun, but it's just not as accurate. It requires real world accuracy!

 

A lot of people don't like motion controls too, and for many they've fallen out of fashion. It can be tiring to point a Wii remote at the screen for several hours, and I am actually pretty glad to see the back of them. Nice gimmick, but they haven't stuck, and there's a reason for that.

 

Also, I'm not suggesting Nintendo were thinking of FPS games when designing their controller. I'm suggesting they have thought into what's the most natural position for your hands/thumb to be in when holding a controller and using the different input methods.

 

As has been said, you sacrifice so much to put that stick there, so I'm not really sure what else I can say. On paper it sounds right, in practice it isn't. Putting the sticks lower doesn't really affect anything, but putting them higher makes button pressing awkward. It's like trying to use the D-pad on the 360 controller.

 

What I believe with the other consoles is this:

 

Sony: Nintendo have done that right, we need analogue sticks, but we don't want to drastically change our pad, lets stick them here.

Microsoft: We need analogue sticks, let's move the one that controls the character to the most natural position for it like when holding the middle prong on the N64 pad, because this will be the main input method. We'll keep the buttons where they are as they have always been there... except we'll put the black and white buttons in a stupid place and make the pad huge.

 

They've stayed as they are because that's how things have been.

 

Microsoft know their market now. They would have put the stick there certainly by the time they released the 360 when they knew by then their market was FPS and shooters, if that was what worked best.

 

The Wii U Pro controller literally came out of nowhere. It is not a refinement, or an evolution, of another of their controllers, and it is most likely not based on developer feedback (else why shitty triggers?). Much more likely that it was Nintendo seeking to differentiate rather than the other 2 companies being tardy (both sticks on top is the only configuration left not yet used).

 

Edited July 3, 2014 by Sheikah

[Wii]

The Wii U pro controller layout is right. The thumb position matches that of the nunchuk. Imagine this, hold the pro controller in your left hand, now place your thumb ver the d pad. Does that feel right? Imagine the nunchuk had the same stick position. It would feel wrong. It's the same on the other side of the controller. Also for the buttons, where they're located, it's easier for your thumb to make different multiple button combinations. The pro controller is fine, it's just lack analogue triggers. I kind of thought at first it was a bit cheap but it's not. It's just the lightness of it makes you think it must be flimsy. Nintendo are the masters of making robust hardware.

 

@Sheikah

I'm sorry, but the might and experience of the other console designers prove it's anything but wrong.

 

You'll find Nintendo have been in this game longer and have much more experience. Are these the same companies that have been copying Nintendo's ideas for years?

[Sheikah]

Yeah, me not having one clearly means I haven't had extensive time with one. Of course. It all makes perfect sense now.

 

It's perfectly possible, I just find it unlikely. I find it much more likely you're loyally defending Nintendo than speaking from experience. The fact you used news reports of the DS4 rubber coming off rather than commenting on how it felt in your hands to discuss its build quality says something.

 

Nintendo are the masters of making robust hardware.

 

They sure are. If I throw a Nintendo console off a building, maybe it'll survive.

 

Absolutely no clue what that has to do with the discussion, though.

 

@Sheikah

 

You'll find Nintendo have been in this game longer and have much more experience. Are these the same companies that have been copying Nintendo's ideas for years?

 

Such a ridiculous statement. As if their length of time in the industry is an assurance of quality and that we must therefore assume they are correct.

 

Tell me, if they're the masters in hardware design, why does the Gamepad have the quality and resolution of something like a Vtech toy?

 

Why have they not provided an evolution of the Gamecube pad when people loved it so? Why are the triggers on the Pro pad crappy? Why are the buttons hard?

 

If the last 4-5 years has told us anything it's that Nintendo aren't doing the right things, so I've no idea why we should assume they're the ones doing it right.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Sheikah

[Kav]

I just don't see how button pressing is awkward on the Pro Controller. It's not awkward in the slightest, I just don't get this statement at all. Sure the buttons aren't in as natural a place to press as they are on the other pads but likewise, the analogue on those other pads isn't as natural in use as the Pro Controller's. With higher fidelity required for complete control of an analogue stick over the fidelity required for pressing a button (not much), it makes more sense to have the stick in the natural raised position.

 

Also, using the D-Pad on the 360 controller is only awkward because the D-Pad itself is of poor design, not because of its placement. The D-Pad and buttons are easy to use on the Pro Controller because tapping a button/direction does not require any effort or fidelity at all. Unless you've tiny hands, like midget small, then I could see your argument, but then all controllers aren't for you.

[Sheikah]

If it wasn't awkward in the slightest, then me and Flink wouldn't be complaining about it. :p

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

You've more belief in Nintendo regarding making controllers? :p This is the company that made one of the most comfortable controllers but then ditched everything about it and made the Wii U Pro controller. And also the company that made the gamepad as their main controller...which is essentially a slab with buttons that cost them a fortune.

 

 

Yeah...but, so?

 

You now have vast options in how you play your games. Use the GC pad if you want to etc. Nintendo have made it viable for the last two consoles.

 

All controllers after and before the GC were perfectly fine and natural if you gave it a minute, including the Wii-remote and Gamepad.

[Sheikah]

Yeah...but, so?

 

You now have vast options in how you play your games. Use the GC pad if you want to etc. Nintendo have made it viable for the last two consoles.

 

All controllers after and before the GC were perfectly fine and natural if you gave it a minute, including the Wii-remote and Gamepad.

 

The gamecube controller is hardly fully compatible with all their new games (especially given their trend towards motion controls) and the buttons don't match up. One set of triggers versus two (a particular problem for FPS games), and various other button differences.

 

I fully understand why they went with the Wii remote as that enabled them to push motion controls, which was hot at the time. But turn to the present and they had the opportunity to revive the gamecube controller but with some significant changes to the sorts of buttons on the thing, while keeping the overall ergonomic design. A real missed opportunity, I think.

[Kav]

If it wasn't awkward in the slightest, then me and Flink wouldn't be complaining about it. :p

 

I thought you were complaining just because it was Nintendo..?! :p

 

Still, if it wasn't awkward for the analogues to be where they are on the DS4 then I wouldn't complain about it, right?