Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

[Yvonne]

That's not a bad definition, but I think more accurately, for me at least, it's for equality for all gender expressions.

 

Anywho, wot I think of the video! Full disclosure: I contributed to this kickstarter.

 

I liked it! Particularly what she had to say about ocarina because I was thinking of that example just before she said it, and it's true, Zelda's a badass as long as she isn't wearing a dress

 

It was very professionally made and researched, maybe presented a bit on the formal side for my tastes, but yeah, well worth the $25 or whatever I put in.

 

Funny lesson about the amount of money it generated - if you try and do something on the internet, people will try and stop you. Trolls got really upset about the idea that this woman would dare to make a video series on this subject, and then everyone else on the internet went against the trolls and chipped in to the kickstarter, generating way more than it probably would have if it were treated as something like a game review series. You can open pandora's box, but there's always hope at the bottom.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

 

If that's the definition, just because you don't like the direction some of its members are taking doesn't change the definition.

 

That's hardly an accurate definition of modern feminism, though, is it? That's the point I've been trying to make, that feminism is much more than a descriptive adjective nowadays; it's an ideology, a belief system. Why should I be forced into identifying with something which has core elements to it that I disagree with? I hardly think feminists are interested in me being identified as one, either!

[Yvonne]

I haven't read the whole thread, what's being argued here? Is someone telling you you are a feminist?

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Sort of; Hamishmash wrote the following:

 

If you believe men and women are born equal, you're a feminist

 

By that definition I am a feminist. However, considering feminism is a huge ideology with its own discourse and theories, I find it extremely inaccurate - misleading, even - to define someone as a feminist simply for believing in equality.

 

The underlying issue, of course, is that there are certain aspects of feminist theory I do not agree with, some of which I even find to actively go against the concept of equality.

[Diageo]

Sort of; Hamishmash wrote the following:

 

 

 

By that definition I am a feminist. However, considering feminism is a huge ideology with its own discourse and theories, I find it extremely inaccurate - misleading, even - to define someone as a feminist simply for believing in equality.

 

The underlying issue, of course, is that there are certain aspects of feminist theory I do not agree with, some of which I even find to actively go against the concept of equality.

Feminism has a formal meaning in a dictionary and a colloquial meaning in which you find its ideology. While atheists may have characters who do certain acts the only defining characteristic of atheism is that one is without God. Similarly, feminism is for those who believe in equal rights for men and women. That is what it is regardless of what it is used for in most areas. The most extremist of its members do not change the definition. Just like the baptist church doesn't make all christians horrible people.

 

My point was that the video was ridiculous.

 

If you can't see that, then there's very little point in trying to discuss it, as has been shown time and time again in this thread. So excuse me for giving up and deciding to sit back with a bowl of popcorn and enjoying the whole 'discussion' on a purely ironic level instead.

 

There's never little point in trying to discuss it. Even those the most extreme of parties may not change their positions there are people in the middle that read each opinion and consider it in making it their decisions. I know I have not set a firm grip on either side and depending on the opinions I have read I have moved from one side to another. I'm happy in seeing dissenting opinions, especially since one side has been mostly expressed so far.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Feminism has a formal meaning in a dictionary and a colloquial meaning in which you find its ideology. While atheists may have characters who do certain acts the only defining characteristic of atheism is that one is without God. Similarly, feminism is for those who believe in equal rights for men and women. That is what it is regardless of what it is used for in most areas. The most extremist of its members do not change the definition. Just like the baptist church doesn't make all christians horrible people.

 

But I'm not talking about mere members here - extremist or not; I'm talking about core ideas in feminist theory. As in ideas strongly intertwined with the ideology known as feminism. At that point it seems ridiculous to me to argue from a dictionary definition. Dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, and I find that definition of feminism extremely inaccurate and outright misleading. If you call someone a feminist, expect people to assume you're referring to the feminist ideology.

[Ramar]

Anyone else find it funny that a word that's supposed to be about equality has the female prefix..

[Hamishmash]

I think feminism is less about equality actually and more about liberation from the systematic oppression in our culture which treats men and women differently from birth. Women don't necessarily want equality with men, because what "men" are made to be by our culture is not something that they aspire to be (as in violent, sexist, etc). (And by men we do not mean individual men or lots of men, we mean the idea of masculinity and how that is worldwide seen as something to be admired, while femininity is something to be embarrassed about being). Feminists fight for equality in the sense that women must have the same rights as men, and mean need to be brought down and made less privileged than they are now. Which I think is pretty bloody fair.

 

Feminism is called feminism because females of the people being oppressed.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Hamishmash

[Yvonne]

@Ramar maybe, until you think about why it is that way. AFAIK it was the first gender equality movement and its first action was to enable women to be political entities. After that, the name stuck

[Ramar]

Lets not get our knickers in a twist my post was tongue in cheek.

 

Jk jk

[Yvonne]

I think my response was pretty plain, and I don't know you well enough to know when you are being facetious. That said "knickers in a twist" is somewhat sexist

[MoogleViper]

It was pretty dire. Another man trying to make excuses for why he doesn't like his beloved games being called out.

 

This pisses me off. It's the same sort of argument that people like you always make, and that you've already made a few times in this thread. Rather than actually arguing their points, you just try to belittle them and reduce their argument into a petty idea.

 

I'm going to take your approach to Anita's video:

 

"Oh look, just another emotional woman with her knickers in a twist playing the poor little me card."

 

I'd love to see a woman who disagrees with the video make a response. Although it'd probably be from one of those "girls are bitches I like my dude friends more because dudes aren't bitches or sluts" kinda girls... I want to see a feminist put up some counter arguments.

 

So because they're men, their arguments aren't valid? Or just not as valid?

 

In fact more than that, not only will you just accept a woman's argument, but it has to be a woman with a particular set of beliefs, that happen to coincide with yours.

[Debug Mode]

The internet seems to be awash in ad hominem fallacy these days. It's rather amusing to see the people arguing on the side of Anita use it, while absolutely crucifying those who have done it to her.

 

Thunderf00t's latest argument is actually very well constructed and shows the problems with using video games as a medium to identify sexism. You can construe it in one way to show that it is being sexist towards women, but you can also use it to show there is sexism towards men. Are they actually sexist? Doubtful, they're just rehashing story ideas in order to turn a profit.

 

I've no overall problem with Anita's argument despite largely disagreeing with it, but there sure is a lack of respect for those who are pushing for healthy debate by replying to her criticisms.

[Cube]

Are they actually sexist? Doubtful, they're just rehashing story ideas in order to turn a profit.

 

Isn't that what Anita said in her video? That this wasn't really that sexist, just a poor plot device?

[Debug Mode]

Isn't that what Anita said in her video? That this wasn't really that sexist, just a poor plot device?

 

If I recall correctly, she did state that and then followed it with a massive but...

 

That and it'd kind of take away a lot of the impact from the "vs Women" subject matter if it all boiled down to her admitting it's not really sexist.

[Ville]

Thunderf00t's latest argument is actually very well constructed and shows the problems with using video games as a medium to identify sexism. You can construe it in one way to show that it is being sexist towards women, but you can also use it to show there is sexism towards men. Are they actually sexist? Doubtful, they're just rehashing story ideas in order to turn a profit.

 

Yep. I think there's a quite a big difference between "hey let's go with this age-old trope" vs. "my god those women are scum of the Earth, let's make that stupid bitch get kidnapped and be stuck in the castle the whole game getting raped by the bad guy" kind of design choices. The problem is that people these days take any gender-related difference as being sexist. "Oh my god, the girl is wearing pink and the guy blue, that's sexist!" "Oh my god, the children are playing with different toys, sexism!" In other words, the plot of actual sexism has been totally lost, and now we have the cause of fervent gender neutrality which tries to erase any possible differences between men and women. The early feminists actually pushed for androgynity, and the same idea seems to be running around still...

 

I've no overall problem with Anita's argument despite largely disagreeing with it, but there sure is a lack of respect for those who are pushing for healthy debate by replying to her criticisms.

Yep. That's unfortunately the situation with a lot of "feminist" or gender egalitarian arguments in general, any male perspective is automatically labeled as wrong or invalid no matter how well you argue it... >_> Purely because it's an ideology and its core tenet is "women are and have always been oppressed by men". Any sort of alternative perspective, like what men are and have gone through through history (getting mass-killed and tortured in wars, etc), can't be accepted, because it would even up the picture and thus destroy the religion where women are always the victims and men just evil users. This whole debate is a perfect example of this ideological blindness; just like Moogle mentioned, for some reason men and non-feminists are always wrong in this debate...

[Magnus]

Nobody's saying that Nintendo are twirling their metaphorical mustaches while thinking of ways to oppress women any more than they're saying that TV shows that star nothing but straight white people are being intentionally racist and homophobic.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Magnus

[Hamishmash]

To be honest? Yeah. A man's opinion of feminism is largely invalid. If a woman feels something is sexist then it probably is sexist. A man telling her that it isn't sexist is sexist.

 

White people can't tell black people what is and isn't racist. Straight people can't tell gay people what is and isn't homophobic.

 

If a woman was to disagree with Anita's points on sexism and I would be a lot more willing to listen to it.

 

I'm still bewildered how this video has caused this much controversy. Sexist games should be the ones causing controversy, not intelligent and articulate people calling them out.

[Rummy]

I think, after this thread I've come to conclude we're unable to discuss out opinions about the damsel in distress trope, and an evaluation of the evidence expressed in original video in relation to such. As a genuine question; is it possible for us to discuss the damsel in distress and our opinions on it without referring to misogyny or misandry? I feel like either view just polarises, doesn't discuss the actual video game/content aspect; and I wonder why we're having this thread in general gaming discussion as it doesn't seem to contain much discussion about games!

[Zell]

To be honest? Yeah. A man's opinion of feminism is largely invalid. If a woman feels something is sexist then it probably is sexist. A man telling her that it isn't sexist is sexist.

 

White people can't tell black people what is and isn't racist. Straight people can't tell gay people what is and isn't homophobic.

 

If a woman was to disagree with Anita's points on sexism and I would be a lot more willing to listen to it.

 

I'm still bewildered how this video has caused this much controversy. Sexist games should be the ones causing controversy, not intelligent and articulate people calling them out.

 

Are you actually serious? Please tell me, who in this thread is being the most prejudice here: the people reasonably putting forward counter arguments to the video in question or the person who is saying that an entire sex's opinion on a certain topic is invalid?

 

I'd like to introduce you to a concept called Ad_hominem because you seem to be using it a lot.

[Mr-Paul]

To be honest? Yeah. A man's opinion of feminism is largely invalid. If a woman feels something is sexist then it probably is sexist. A man telling her that it isn't sexist is sexist.

 

White people can't tell black people what is and isn't racist. Straight people can't tell gay people what is and isn't homophobic.

 

If a woman was to disagree with Anita's points on sexism and I would be a lot more willing to listen to it.

 

I'm still bewildered how this video has caused this much controversy. Sexist games should be the ones causing controversy, not intelligent and articulate people calling them out.

 

So you're saying your own opinion is largely invalid???? :p

 

I think you're taking people disagreeing with Anita's points way too personally. Most people aren't denying that she does have some valid points, they just feel that the delivery isn't quite right and certain points are twisted to suit an agenda.

 

I don't think anyone would deny that the damsel in distress could be construed as a sexist trope. I just think people don't really think it's that big a deal. I agree that it is probably an overused plot device, but I disagree that those who use this plot device are being sexist. They use it because it works! Men and women alike consume media - film, TV, games, fiction - using the trope, so it will continue. I have never seen a woman offended playing a Mario game because it's a princess rather than a prince being saved. Does it really give the sense of disempowerment that Anita suggests? There are plenty of examples in media of strong female characters. Then there are both strong and weak male characters.

 

I think there's been so much discussion on this video that everyone will have ran out of things to say by the time she releases the rest!

[Rummy]

Not can be construed, it definitely is sexist. There's also some difference in comparison to other media such as TV and film because in that they tend to still represent said damsel in distress; the criticism I would level at platform mario in this sense is that the main and major focus of the game IS mario. It's who you control, and yeah I can see why that could suck for girls. However would this problem be any less if mario was rescuing luigi, or another brother, or retrieving a precious item instead? Nope. They're still forced to play as mario. That problem isn't the damsel in distress - but I think the arguments about lack of female hero is confused in the video with it, because the female character that exists is a damsel in distress.

[Agent Gibbs]

To be honest? Yeah. A man's opinion of feminism is largely invalid. If a woman feels something is sexist then it probably is sexist. A man telling her that it isn't sexist is sexist.

 

White people can't tell black people what is and isn't racist. Straight people can't tell gay people what is and isn't homophobic.

 

If a woman was to disagree with Anita's points on sexism and I would be a lot more willing to listen to it.

 

I'm still bewildered how this video has caused this much controversy. Sexist games should be the ones causing controversy, not intelligent and articulate people calling them out.

 

Do you have any idea how ridiculously bigoted you sound?

Feminism was the striving of equality for women and what you are just spouting is completely against its ideal of gender equality, you are outright dismissing the views of one sex because they aren't the views of the other sex

do you realize the out right irony that you are projecting now onto men, the same bigoted viewpoint that used to happen to women?

 

Jesus Christ take a step back and view this objectively and see how bad you are sounding

 

The video isn't causing controversy the viewpoint you and many other are taking is what is causing controversy, the one that NOBODY can discuss this issue they have to take it as gospel, only those with like minded views can, which by its very definition will be a similar view not an opposing view, ergo nobody can discuss the issue objectively.

 

I'm completely for gender equality and completely against bigoted view points such as sexism/racism, which i've always found amusing given the fact it makes me bigoted against that view point but its a view I'm fine with

Edited March 18, 2013 by Agent Gibbs

[Mr-Paul]

Part of me does think her arguments would be a lot better received if all the videos were released at once - if she set out a whole argument at once with a balanced assessment of how games can both disempower and empower women.

 

By releasing it in little bits like this, it allows people to focus even more on the points they disagree with and allows them to speculate what she'll say in other videos in her series rather than give a full appraisal and discussion about what she stands for.

 

I totally agree there needs to be more female heroes. I just really don't feel that most women are that offended by the use of the damsel in distress. If she had released her whole video series at once, it would feel more like the damsel in distress is but one part of the problem of sexism in video games. By releasing it alone, it makes it seem more like the damsel in distress is the only problem.

 

I don't think it is games that have to change first - it is society that needs to change. We still live in a very sexist world. And once society is more equal, media will reflect that more. I do think that to an extent that media can reinforce people's sexist views, but I don't think video games prescribe these views upon people. Changing the media won't necessarily change people's opinions, but changing people's opinions will change the media.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Mr-Paul

[Agent Gibbs]

Totally agree with you there @Mr Paul, I love her video's and the debate it brings forward, but i do feel this time she's done herself a disservice by releasing it in parts, its allowed people to hyper analyise her statements and pick them apart, when her second half video will do just that itself and address the counter arguments.

 

I've tried to play a little devil's advocate in this thread and post video's of other feminist bloggers who have offered general counter arguments, i'm sure should this controversy get to such a point, then they will surely do a tailored video addressing this, but others have brought very reasoned points to this

 

I've never understood why there aren't more female hero's in video games etc, the gender of the hero makes no difference to me, its good story telling & character interactions that matter to me, the latest tomb raider is rapidly becoming one of my favourite games the fact the hero is a woman makes no difference to me at all, i've come to love the character, the fact she has no floppy appendage between her legs doesn't affect me positively or negatively and i can't understand the thinking of people who do dismiss games that have a female protagonist