Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

[Magnus]

She should have made a video about Baby, It's Cold Outside instead.

 

Though that's more rapey than sexist.

 

 

But that's the point, this isn't about sexism, it's just how our society operates. If you want to change it, then we would have to re-establish our whole ideals, society and laws.

Can't it be about sexism and the way society operates? But yeah, there is a lot of sexism in society. And racism and gender roles and blah blah blah. I don't see what's wrong with challenging that. You could make a similar video series about the lack of black main characters in Hollywood blockbusters or the perpetuation of traditional gender roles in toy catalogs. And then the next time you buy a toy for your niece maybe you'd stop and think, "hmm, that person in that video series made a good point, maybe my niece would prefer a truck over a doll."

 

Or maybe you'd buy her an Easy-Bake Oven and tell her that women belong in the kitchen.

[Mr-Paul]

She should have made a video about Baby, It's Cold Outside instead.

 

Though that's more rapey than sexist.

 

That was in the same video, and I agreed with her on that! Never realised it was so creepy! Never really listened to the words, I thought the man was just being nice and caring for the woman!

[MoogleViper]

And then the next time you buy a toy for your niece maybe you'd stop and think, "hmm, that person in that video series made a good point, maybe my niece would prefer a truck over a doll."

 

Or maybe you'd buy her an Easy-Bake Oven and tell her that women belong in the kitchen.

 

Actually I think this is by far the biggest cause of inequality in society.

[Ville]

Just because men don't care about the representation of their gender, it is not a good argument for women not to care about the representation of theirs. If you want to argue against it, this is a bad thread to follow. 'Other people have it just as bad so you shouldn't complain' is not a valid argument.

 

No, of course they're free to express their opinions. Still, so am I. I'm just saying that maybe they're overanalysing things a little bit, because you could make similar arguments about male characters too. Yet personally, I don't really find it troubling at all. It's not as black and white as people might think based on her video alone.

 

Well most men are not exactly fighting for equality

Yes, and why is that? Because "equality" is always about women's rights...just like in this case : D

 

I haven't watched the video, but I think there's a difference between shallow and sexist characters. Just because Mario is a shallow character doesn't make him a sexist one.

 

Well, with that logic you could say that the female characters are also just shallow, and not sexist. A sexy bimbo is just a caricature of the gender really, and probably used just because skin sells. Same thing with men, there's a reason why the overly muscular bad-ass trope is used over and over again: it's over-the-top fantasy, and people buy that.

 

So where's the line really? My argument is that you could analyse anything as being sexist, if you want. I mean this forum is pretty sexist, since it clearly caters more to men and not women o_O The word doesn't even mean anything in the West anymore, since it's thrown around here and there all the time. "Sexism", prejudice or discrimination based on gender. Do you guys really think that companies like Nintendo have an agenda against women when making games? Like I said in the video, the knight rescues the princess is a trope based on biology and history, men are physically more powerful and have thus been assigned the role of the fighter in societies since the beginning on mankind. Thus it is no wonder that fictional works such as video games use this same reality on the basis of their own stories and worlds, eh?

 

I mean if that is sexist, then biology and evolution is sexist. Blame god / universe / whatever, why did you make women physically weaker, you misogynistic bastard! xD (this is actually what the gender argumentations feel like at times, that women / men being different from each other is a horrible thing and should be eradicated at any cost... o_O)

 

Why didn't you make it a video response? Would have gotten more views, and I would love to see what Aneeta(sp?)'s fans think.

 

Yep, like Cube said, you can't leave a video response, it's a total lockdown of comments and ratings. Quite unfortunate really...

 

I watched another video of hers where she was saying that Mariah Carey's "All I want for christmas is you" is sexist because it implies a woman has nothing better to do than long for a man to be with. I'm sorry, but aren't we allowed love songs any more? Views like that make it harder to take her good points seriously.

 

Yep. Like I said, you could analyse anything as being "sexist" if you want...and that's the case here I think. Not saying that there aren't some real points in her video too, but it's just too easy and one-sided to blame everything at being sexist at your gender only.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ville

[Marcamillian]

Is it sexist? Is it wrong to cater to their target audience? No, it's just business.

 

As people have said ... it can be both.

 

Appealing to actions that are negative usually makes good business sense. I mean look at facebook making millions off of destructive tendencies voyeurism and insecurity.

 

 

Now the initial bout of fighting seems to have died down -

 

I was concerned about what audience this is aimed at. She seems to spend a lot of time setting up things that even people with a passing interest in games are very familiar with. It makes me think its more about making feminists aware of what's going on with games than having a conversation with "gamers".

 

Choice of audience is entirely hers but I can imagine it causing a lot of friction and not being productive. It risks not having a conversation WITH the gamers who arn't being dicks but rallying people that arn't already aware of the situation. Applying an outside force of "feminists" rather than engaging with the problem with those prepared to listen is only going to result in more problems.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Marcamillian

[Rummy]

I think also the fact that the AmazingAtheist is a disgusting, rape-promoting freak makes me love everything he hates unconditionally.

 

That's hardly being objective to her video and doesn't exactly make me think you're approaching this fairly. It also helps promote the image of the people he's criticising.

 

 

For me, and this video, my problem isn't her in the slightest(ok i initially judged her earrings but that wasnt serious). My problem isn't really her point/issues being raised - it's just the approach. She appears to present it one sided in this video. Why not be balanced, and still have it in two parts? Personal choice ok.

Also, the games she's referencing aren't all all that current. She references the 'core mario series' - which is what? mario platformers only? That isn't a fair representation of the much larger mario. It wasn't just video game media either - in fact she references the direct inspiration of Donkey Kong - Popeye - why isn't the blame laid more heavily there? Or at hollywood, or other media of the time?

 

I don't think people are criticising in response because they're 'geeks' who've had their beloved games criticised, I think most of the people here are fairly sensible and take issue with the exact things they've said they take issue with.

 

I'm not part of the group of people that have a strong passion in this area so I'm being more of a devil's advocate. There aren't really any 'feminists' in this forum, with the ones that exist hiding their opinion because they get easily frustrated and give up instead of arguing their point effectively. So I don't really think we're going to get anywhere here.

 

@Diageo- What, or how, exactly do you define 'feminists'?

 

 

 

Personally, I just think it's a somewhat biased video, focusing on a few offenders that aren't that big in the scheme of things. Yes, Mario platformers and Zelda are highly popular series - but they were concieved in the 80s, no? Their formula has been the same because that's their essence, isn't it? Personally I have grown tired of Zelda constantly being a kidnapped princess, and was actually a little excited in skyward sword of her being part of the journey. The whole peach/mario I'm less fussed about as that's not often a heavily character driven story - they're both empty avatars for the gameplay.

 

However, how many games are there out there that AREN'T sexist? How many of those outnumber how many of these? Then there's the games that are direct counterpoints with female characters in them. I'm not saying to just ignore the bad offenders; but this 'damsel in distress' trope just feels a bit weak as a starting point. Almost outdated in itself really. Other than Mario and Zelda, Starfox Adventures was the most recent example and that's over ten years old!

 

There's also, as people have mentioned, the over masculine representation of male characters etc - though that possibly blurs into a slightly different territory?

 

It's male power fantasies created by men for men, as opposed to female sex objects created by men for men.

 

I hope you're not saying that no women work in video games...

[Magnus]

I hope you're not saying that no women work in video games...

I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

[Rummy]

 

Made a little video on the subject earlier, here you go. Sleepy time now...

 

As is often the case with your stuff that I see around, I really liked this

[Ville]

@Rummy Thanks man!

 

Indeed, what comes to the structuring of Mario and Zelda, it's just one plot device being used, their basic formula. Bowser and Ganondorf are just as much a part of the trifectas as Peach and Zelda, and note how these manifestations of evil are of course male ; D Just like most of the bosses and enemies anyway...

 

Anyway, like you said, the formula is getting incredibly repetitive and dull by now, so I really hope they shake it up somehow... xS Actually, this is why we got games like Super Princess Peach, Nintendo trying to experiment with the trope a little. More please.

[Rummy]

I have no idea how you got that from what I said.

 

I was joking, it was supposed to be an exaggerated leap of faith.

 

One thing I was going to mention about bosses/bad guys is that they are even worse in that they tend to be a completely different species. How racist is that! Omg! Gerudo/Dinosaur(?) rights!

 

I think Ville's points about one-dimensionalism for the sake of constraint to produce something that's fun/appeals are spot on. Often also, as Ville mentioned, they've reflections of things that do exist in society albeit in a very one dimensional manner. I would say that's why upcoming topics such as sexy villainess and ugly = evil appear to be contradicting. They're one dimensional extrapolations...though admittedly I'm not sure how applicable it is to society :p

 

 

It's difficult to look at a subject like this without looking at the whole picture, and by its nature tends not to. It polarises, and really both sides argue very limited points. I would love to see more female leads in games as I said, and would probably buy them(tbh protagonist/antognist's gender never crosses my mind in my game decisions) if they were good games.

 

 

One other thing - it's diverting from the issue possible - but could there be any positive influence on the gamers of playing the games in question? The hero going on a quest to rescue the princess/save the world/defeat the villain? Possibly moreso on male gamers with a male protagonist? Does it instil any sort of moral sense of doing the 'right thing'?

[Eenuh]

Skim reading through this thread has made me realise that I could have made a lot of money out of a paper I wrote a few years ago, which talks about exactly the same stuff. Darnit. =P

 

 

(I have not watched the video by the way)

[Rummy]

Damn! I was hoping to see a long and detailed response from one of our female gamers! Could always post the paper up if you still have it/don't mind/can share?

[Magnus]

I wouldn't want to make a detailed response in this thread if I were a woman, either.

 

Unless she's going to be an Uncle Tom.

[Eenuh]

Damn! I was hoping to see a long and detailed response from one of our female gamers! Could always post the paper up if you still have it/don't mind/can share?

 

The paper was in Dutch and I don't even know if I still have it. =P

 

But yeah I am not really going to argue in here because I am too tired and I am never good at getting my point across anyway.

 

Just want to point out that anything can be seen in a sexist way if you want it to be. For example Jim mentioned Samus as a strong female character, but then I pointed out that she has become objectified herself as Zero Suit Samus and showing her off in that outfit at the end of the game as a reward for finishing it.

 

So there's always two sides to a coin.

[MoogleViper]

I wouldn't want to make a detailed response in this thread if I were a woman, either.

 

That's because you'd have a small brain, and would be unable to come up with one.

 

[Ville]

One thing I was going to mention about bosses/bad guys is that they are even worse in that they tend to be a completely different species. How racist is that! Omg! Gerudo/Dinosaur(?) rights!

 

Indeed, the race card is still there waiting, what's the skin colour ratio in games, and how are those people depicted? I mean Mario, Peach, Link and Zelda are all white, while Ganondorf the evil man is of course black ; D This is taken to an extreme in the case of Bowser, who when analysed against the background of all-white Mushroom Kingdom, is clearly representing all the other races, and what is he? Not even human, but a monster. Goddamnit Nintendo, you racist bastards : o

 

I think Ville's points about one-dimensionalism for the sake of constraint to produce something that's fun/appeals are spot on. Often also, as Ville mentioned, they've reflections of things that do exist in society albeit in a very one dimensional manner. I would say that's why upcoming topics such as sexy villainess and ugly = evil appear to be contradicting. They're one dimensional extrapolations...though admittedly I'm not sure how applicable it is to society :p

Sexy villainess = women using their looks advantage and men's higher sex drive against them. Possible in real life.

 

Ugly equals evil = Ugliness → getting shunned by people → isolation, frustration, hatred towards other people. Basically maltreatment leading to revenge. Also possible in real life.

 

I would love to see more female leads in games as I said, and would probably buy them(tbh protagonist/antognist's gender never crosses my mind in my game decisions) if they were good games.

Actually, I'd be real curious to see what the ideal game of these feminists would be like, I mean if they had free hands to plan everything they wanted. Would be pretty interesting to see...although based on the few feminist gamers I know, it might just be too relationship-oriented for my taste xD

 

One other thing - it's diverting from the issue possible - but could there be any positive influence on the gamers of playing the games in question? The hero going on a quest to rescue the princess/save the world/defeat the villain? Possibly moreso on male gamers with a male protagonist? Does it instil any sort of moral sense of doing the 'right thing'?

Well, it's the same thing why children are told positive tales, to solidify a trust in the world. The hero who overcomes obstacles is a representation of victory, making it in life no matter what. I don't think the choosing of a male protagonist is nothing more than a reflection of history and societies, i.e. the males' roles as soldiers and fighters.

I wouldn't want to make a detailed response in this thread if I were a woman, either.

 

Well excuuuuuuuse me (princess), for having a differing opinion about this matter xD

Edited March 12, 2013 by Ville

[Debug Mode]

Skim reading through this thread has made me realise that I could have made a lot of money out of a paper I wrote a few years ago, which talks about exactly the same stuff. Darnit. =P

 

Strike while the iron is hot, the media is willing to lap up any material that pertains to sexism right about now!

[bob]

Cliff Blezinski (sp?) has a post about this. Sorry if this has already been posted.

[Ville]

Sony changes "misogynistic" God of War: Ascension Trophy name

 

Sony will change a God of War: Ascension Trophy that had been accused by some of being misogynistic.

 

The Trophy in question is called "Bros Before Hos", and is awarded to players after stomping on the face of one of the Furies, Ascension's demonic female antagonists.

 

A patch due out alongside the release of the game will change the name of the Trophy to "Bros Before Foes", Sony confirmed to Joystiq.

 

The Trophy was criticised by a number of reviewers of the game last week, including Adam Sessler, who in a video review said:

 

"This gut punch of misogyny irredeemably sours this game and it's shocking that such a talented developer would traffic in such a contemptible attitude. I have always liked the adult fantasy of the God of War games - that Grand Guignol silliness - and in this moment, it's all reduced to some frat-house joke, making me ashamed that I ever thought it was more than that in the first place."

 

As Sessler's comments sparked debate, Sony Santa Monica game director Todd Papy took to Twitter to say a female producer came up with the eyebrow-raising name.

 

"Yep it is a trophy," Papy said. "In fact one of our female producers came up with it. Right or Wrong..."

 

"The text was offensive to some members of our community and impacted their enjoyment of the game," Sony Santa Monica said in a statement issued last night.

 

"We are endlessly committed to ensuring that our community can fully enjoy the experiences the team has created. As such, we've addressed the feedback and amended the Trophy in question."

 

The Trophy had caused a somewhat muted debate online. Those who defended its name said it was in-line with previous games in the God of War series, which is famous for its shocking violence and adult content. God of War 3, for example, includes a Trophy called, "I didn't do it... but I wish I did", awarded for saving a Poseidon Princess before brutally crushing her under gears in order for series anti-hero Kratos to progress through a level.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-12-sony-changes-misogynistic-god-of-war-ascension-trophy-name

Any thoughts on this one?

[Magnus]

I'm mostly wondering if Adam Sessler has ever played God of War before.

[Cube]

"Bros Before Foes" is funnier, while still portraying exactly the same message. So it turned out better.

[Ramar]

 

Made a little video on the subject earlier, here you go. Sleepy time now...

 

Good stuff Ville. You explained a lot of how I feel on the matter in a better way than I could.

[Hamishmash]

Just clarify what I was saying about AmazingAtheist. He frequently uses rape as a threat to anyone critiquing his opinions. And when someone he threatened to rape mentioned that they were actually a survivor he said

I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rape as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give the guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?

 

 

I think any opinion he expresses must be completely disregarded because clearly he is a delusional, violent mad man. And yet so many men are happy to ignore these aspects because "hmm he does raise some good points".

 

On the other hand, Sarkeesian wears hooped earrings and releases (half a video, might I add) in which she criticises an industry that she loves and gets all sorts of unnecessary abuse.

 

The amount of death threats and rape threats she received for even STARTING a kickstarter makes me completely understand why she disabled comments. I don't see why people feel they're entitled to comment on her own YouTube video in her space. She's not stopping people making video responses, or blocked anyone being able to contact her. Her website is completely open in that respect. But she's lectured for TED about online harassment and clearly understands the best way to avoid receiving hurtful and personal abuse. Disabling comments is hardly Big Brother-style censorship so stop whining about it.

[Rummy]

OK, that's pretty extreme and I'm not condoning it at all. However I think disliking what HE does to use it as a justification for liking HER because HE doesn't, is very unobjective and doesn't make me feel you're approaching this fairly. His actions or opinions elsewhere, for me when I saw his video and posted, were irrelevant to the video at hand that he posted.

 

I'd like to clarify what I said about her hoops also - I jumped on the hoops because they displeased me. Literally just the hoops. I didn't make an overt judgement of her really because I understand things are probably different over the pond(as I said). My comment about the hoops are just a comment on them and not her; I'm looking forward to the rest of the series. My only issue with her video is, as I've explained, I feel it was biased(for the reasons explained) and not representing the point fairly. I disagreed with the video content, not her really.

 

Also I'm pretty sure nobody said they were entitled to comment on her video. In fact, a few have agreed with her disabling the comments whilst others have put forth reasons for why enabling them could be of benefit. Of course, it is her choice; personally I think they should be enabled but then I care very little on the matter anyhow as I never really read youtube comments(just the top rated two or whatever that show right under). Also, I didn't see anyone here really 'whine about it' anymore than she 'whined about' the damsel in distress trope ala her video. Whilst people can make video responses, they can't directly set it up as such apparently - that does stifle both harsh responses(good thing) and well reasoned ones(bad thing). I'd love to see more similar videos like Ville's only again I don't care that much because I don't spend much time trawling numerous video responses to other videos etc. It's like opening a discussion and then telling everyone to take it elsewhere; I don't like the idea but then would I really have participated in the discussion on youtube? No, I much prefer having the discussion here really. I'd maybe have watched some video responses(and posted them in here) but yeah...it doesn't really affect me, I don't care all *that* much but I do think in the little bit I care that responses shouldn't be disabled.

 

 

Now I've gone and got into a whole post about something I didn't care about. I just disagree with the presentation as I didn't think it was representative however I'm looking forward to the future videos to see if they rectify this or present the counterarguments however if they don't I probably won't watch much more of the series as it most likely won't interest me that much in that format.

[Magnus]

I think you're taking what Hamish said about liking Anita more because AmazingAtheist dislikes her way too seriously. I doubt he watched Anita's video and was like, "eh, nothing special", then found out AmazingAtheist disliked it and decided it was the greatest thing to ever be uploaded to YouTube.

 

Also, lol at objectivity and approaching things fairly in this thread.