The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker HD

[Cube]

Do we even know what stage the dungeons were removed?

 

I personally think that Wind Waker unfairly gets labelled as "unfinished". Content may have been cut at some stage, but it was clearly a finished product - for an actual unfinished game look at Knight of the Old Republic 2 and Sonic 2006.

 

For all we know, Nintendo looked at the development schedule and said "we need this game finished in X months, so we need to reduce the amount of dungeons before we start making them".

 

The way people talk about it, it sounds like people think that Nintendo yanked out these near-complete dungeons at the last minute.

 

And the way they talk about the Trifoce hunt sounds like they think Nintendo did it all after yanking out the dungeons. I'm pretty sure the Trifoce hunt took more time than a dungeon would of - they just wanted to do something a little bit different, in order to make good use of the game's world.

 

The Trifoce hunt was mostly great - it was only translating the maps that was a pain.

[Mokong]

I know it's a few years old but just thought this thread should have this here

 

 

@Zechs this is the vid Welsh and I were on about last night on CoD

Edited January 25, 2013 by Mokong

[Ronnie]

Do we even know what stage the dungeons were removed?

 

I personally think that Wind Waker unfairly gets labelled as "unfinished". Content may have been cut at some stage, but it was clearly a finished product - for an actual unfinished game look at Knight of the Old Republic 2 and Sonic 2006.

 

For all we know, Nintendo looked at the development schedule and said "we need this game finished in X months, so we need to reduce the amount of dungeons before we start making them".

 

The way people talk about it, it sounds like people think that Nintendo yanked out these near-complete dungeons at the last minute.

 

And the way they talk about the Trifoce hunt sounds like they think Nintendo did it all after yanking out the dungeons. I'm pretty sure the Trifoce hunt took more time than a dungeon would of - they just wanted to do something a little bit different, in order to make good use of the game's world.

 

The Trifoce hunt was mostly great - it was only translating the maps that was a pain.

 

The way the game was laid out though "Collect three pearls" made it seem like it was a fairly last minute change though. If it was early enough it would have just been collect two and also go here to get a map from Jabun, or whatever.

[Cube]

The three pearls are heavily linked to the three Goddesses, though.

[Retro_Link]

Why would it mean re-writing the second half of the game though?

Well I guess if it was simply adding a third temple then it wouldn't. And they could just leave out a weapon I guess so they didn't have to implement uses for it elsewhere in the world.

 

But if it was anything to do with removing the Ghost ships and Triforce hunt etc... in favour of more dungeons or something, the it would be a lot of work.

 

I agree with @Cube though in that I think the game does get unfairly labelled. The Triforce hunt some may find annoying (personally I didn't), but it's perfectly fine to assume it would always have been there.

 

Like I said earlier, the only slightly jarring moment was you could tell you were looking at the ruins of a would be third dungeon... but it's easy to just accept it and move on, especially given the Jabun section is cool.

 

I think I prefer it to having another Water Temple.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Retro_Link

[Zechs Merquise]

They most likely won't add a new temple as it would mean redoing too much of the game. However it would be nice.

 

Stuff did get cut from this, but calling it unfinished is nonsense. Just because something turns out differently to how it was originally planned doesn't mean it's not finished! Loads of games have things cut or changed along the development path.

[Cube]

The dungeon's item is a problem, as it would have to be something fairly useless.

 

Although I have an idea: move the Hyoi Pear from the bait bag to a full item. Then you can have some Seagull-related puzzles in the third dungeon and it's still useful for a couple of things later on. Beedle can be "out of stock" until you finish the dungeon.

 

Also, they could have it so you discover that Jabun (and the pearl) is missing and have the same sequence of events from them on.

 

I highly doubt an extra dungeon will actually happen, though. I'd say a 0.001% chance.

[Ville]

Hmm, interesting. I thought the Triforce hunt was a bit weird, but it never felt annoying to me. Jabun just giving the pearl...yeah, that was a bit cheap.

 

Anyway, I'd definitely want Nintendo to finish their original vision for the game, supposing they actually had the extra dungeons designed. I mean now's the perfect (and only) chance. Plus, it'd offer some buying incentive to us who have already completed WW 100%...

[Retro_Link]

Tbf though there were thing in Ocarina of Time that were unfinished and they could have changed...

 

Ice Cave into a proper dungeon

Temple of Time into a proper Medallion dungeon instead of just a cutscene

Zora's domain stayed frozen

The Triforce didn't make it into the game

 

... but they didn't for the 3DS remake.

 

Game's always have unfinished elements. I'd much rather they spent the time/resources they could do changing this game on other projects.

[Cube]

Remember when the Wind Waker bonus disk was going to have the mystical "Ura Zelda" with loads of expansions?

 

Although I believe that the original extra 64DD stuff (outside of the harder dungeons) was the basis for Majora's Mask.

 

That's another thing: if the Wind Waker dungeon was partially developed, it was probably adapted to one in Twilight Princess.

[Jonnas]

In a nutshell, if Jabun giving you the pearl is a cop-out, so is Rauru giving you the Light Medallion.

But that doesn't get complained about, no, only this hypothetical Water Dungeon in a game where Link can't dive and drowns in a jiffy. There isn't even any basis for this so-called water dungeon other than fan speculation (unlike Ocarina of Time, where interviews actually revealed cut dungeons and medallions)

*sigh* This issue annoys me way more than people complaining about the Triforce Hunt, for some reason...

[Retro_Link]

In a nutshell, if Jabun giving you the pearl is a cop-out, so is Rauru giving you the Light Medallion.

But that doesn't get complained about, no,[/size]

They're similar development situations, but the Ocarina of Time one probably doesn't get complained about because that has 8/9 Dungeons to Wind Wakers 5/6.

[Captain Falcon]

They're similar development situations, but the Ocarina of Time one probably doesn't get complained about because that has 8/9 Dungeons to Wind Wakers 5/6.

 

It also then didn't send you on a fetchquests to pad out the time you would have otherwise spent in the dungeons.

 

As for a water dungeon, the game code contains reference to an item called the Water Boots. They don't hvae a model but they can be equiped, and Link does his little hop to put them on like the Iron Boots. They could have worked like either the hover boots, granting a time based ability to walk on water, or perhaps been like Deku Links ability to skip on the surface. Either way, it would have helped to solve the issue of "we can't have water temple if Link can't swim for crap" - the item being the solution to the entire temple which is how they are always designed. It's not people plucking ideas out of thin air.

 

We know 2 almost complete dungeons were scrapped (and that doesn't say anything for no where near complete dungeons) but since they were most probably reused in other games, their inclusion now would be pointless if just added in as was.

[Retro_Link]

As for a water dungeon, the game code contains reference to an item called the Water Boots.

Running from Outset Island to Windfall Island FTW!

[Captain Falcon]

Running from Outset Island to Windfall Island FTW!

 

The stormy night scene did a bit more variety to the otherwise bland sea and instilled a sense of urgency much better than on screen timer would have but it doesn't escape the fact you being made to sail a big chunk across the map only to then be forced to spend an equally long time sailing back again mere minutes later - you spend more time sailing in just one of the directions than you do on Windfall itself.

 

After after it sets up this climactic scene, you have the fight with the Octorok which is a doddle and then you blow up the wall and... not a lot - a conversation and a orb just like that so they can they make you do a bunch more sailing. They over sell massively though not as bad as SS and the thunderhead.

 

I much prefer exploring the over world to spending time in dungeons, always have and always will. But exploring is so unfulfilling in WW because there is nothing to look at whilst you are sailing and the rewards are tiny islands that hold a few rupees or maps to other islands that hold rupees - the incentive for exploration just isn't there. That's why I like Oblivion and Skyrim. Exploration is great because not only is there an incredible amount of variety visually, there are far more worthwhile, tangible, rewards for doing so.

[Retro_Link]

The stormy night scene did a bit more variety to the otherwise bland sea and instilled a sense of urgency much better than on screen timer would have but it doesn't escape the fact you being made to sail a big chunk across the map only to then be forced to spend an equally long time sailing back again mere minutes later - you spend more time sailing in just one of the directions than you do on Windfall itself.

 

After after it sets up this climactic scene, you have the fight with the Octorok which is a doddle and then you blow up the wall and... not a lot - a conversation and a orb just like that so they can they make you do a bunch more sailing. They over sell massively though not as bad as SS and the thunderhead.

 

I much prefer exploring the over world to spending time in dungeons, always have and always will. But exploring is so unfulfilling in WW because there is nothing to look at whilst you are sailing and the rewards are tiny islands that hold a few rupees or maps to other islands that hold rupees - the incentive for exploration just isn't there. That's why I like Oblivion and Skyrim. Exploration is great because not only is there an incredible amount of variety visually, there are far more worthwhile, tangible, rewards for doing so.

I'm not sure what this post was about?... I was just joking about about using the water boots to run between islands! :p

[Captain Falcon]

I'm not sure what this post was about?... I was just joking about about using the water boots to run between islands! :p

 

Oh sorry

 

I thought you were saying that even though they just gave you the Pearl from Jabun, the stormy night scene was fun to sail in.

 

I didn't take you meaning of run quite as literally as you meant it.

[Ronnie]

Remember hearing the faint sound of a violin playing whilst searching for Makar in the Forest Haven? The sound getting louder when you get close and then realising you have to grapple-hook your way through the waterfall to a secret cave to find him? Then moments later, gliding down to the Forbidden Forrest dungeon with the Deku leaf as your magic metre ominously pings away, with flying baddies in the distance and air currents to help you along.

 

Pure magic. Cannot f-ing wait for this game.

[Retro_Link]

I thought you were saying that even though they just gave you the Pearl from Jabun, the stormy night scene was fun to sail in.

Well this too! That stormy night race back to Outset was epic!

[Captain Falcon]

Remember hearing the faint sound of a violin playing whilst searching for Makar in the Forest Haven? The sound getting louder when you get close and then realising you have to grapple-hook your way through the waterfall to a secret cave to find him? Then moments later, gliding down to the Forbidden Forrest dungeon with the Deku leaf as your magic metre ominously pings away, with flying baddies in the distance and air currents to help you along.

 

Pure magic. Cannot f-ing wait for this game.

 

Don't you mean several hours earlier?

[Wii]

They're similar development situations, but the Ocarina of Time one probably doesn't get complained about because that has 8/9 Dungeons to Wind Wakers 5/6.

 

Exactly. Wind Waker felt short whereas it wasn't noticeable in OOT. But as said those cut dungeons I'm sure were implemented in other games, so they'll have to design new ones. They need to add incentive to those who've played this game before?

 

Do we know if this'll be a retail game, eShop game or both?

[Ronnie]

Don't you mean several hours earlier?

 

Yes I do indeed, point still stands.

[Captain Falcon]

Yes I do indeed, point still stands.

 

True - I was just trying to have a little fun with you... really should have added a smiley or something.

 

It does have some great moments like those but for me, they are never enough to outweigh the things I don't like and label this as one of the all time greats.

 

But then that's why you're free to buy it and I can leave it on the shelf - we both win.

[Ronnie]

True - I was just trying to have a little fun with you... really should have added a smiley or something.

 

It does have some great moments like those but for me, they are never enough to outweigh the things I don't like and label this as one of the all time greats.

 

But then that's why you're free to buy it and I can leave it on the shelf - we both win.

 

Haha I assumed it was said in jest.

 

See to me I find the recent games lack even a shred of all the charm that Wind Waker had. The Pirate theme, getting maps from the cartographer fish near each island, controlling seagulls, the grappling hook (and its use in defeating the second boss by tugging Valoo's tail causing the ceiling to drop). The game was filled with so many little bits of magic I personally find it impossible not to love. The fact that it has IMO the best soundtrack and is visually stunning is the icing on the cake. Music played a big part in the gameplay as well, particulalry later on, something I feel the series has seriously lacked recently (Spirit Tracks apart).

 

As for your point re: sailing, surely that's the exploration though? Like on your way to your destination seeing a faint silhouette of an island and deciding to make a slight detour to check it out first.

[Captain Falcon]

Haha I assumed it was said in jest.

 

See to me I find the recent games lack even a shred of all the charm that Wind Waker had. The Pirate theme, getting maps from the cartographer fish near each island, controlling seagulls, the grappling hook (and its use in defeating the second boss by tugging Valoo's tail causing the ceiling to drop). The game was filled with so many little bits of magic I personally find it impossible not to love. The fact that it has IMO the best soundtrack and is visually stunning is the icing on the cake. Music played a big part in the gameplay as well, particulalry later on, something I feel the series has seriously lacked recently (Spirit Tracks apart).

 

As for your point re: sailing, surely that's the exploration though? Like on your way to your destination seeing a faint silhouette of an island and deciding to make a slight detour to check it out first.

 

Charm and whimsy can only do so much to paper over the cracks though. And charm itself is a much more subjective trait than say quality game design is where there are clearer standards of what is deemed good and bad. I don't think the sailing was implemented as well as it could have, there were serious issues with pacing and difficulty balancing in that they should have added some difficulty through dungeon design and enemy combat.

 

I wasn't that impressed with the music when playing outside a couple of tracks but the Zelda symphony did make me rethink it a bit. Still, I don't think it bests any Zelda that came before it in terms of quality of the composition ( though sure it beats them for audio quality as it actually sounds like genuine instruments this time), or TMC and TP that came afterwards.

 

You see the shilhouette, and that's frankly all you can see bar a mass of blue water and blue sky, and you sail toward it only to find there is very little actually there once you arrive and the odds are you don't yet have the tools to do any further exploring. If you decide to come back once you have the necessary bits, the Silver Rupee in the chest might fill your wallet, but it won't fill the sense of emptyness when you realise how much time you spent to get it - especially when the trip wasn't even that entertaing as you spent most of it with the controller on the floor and there was nothing to look at along the way.

 

Feeling let down once was bad enough, but repeating that same sense of wonder (well, it's more along the lines of "hope" in that I hope this won't be like the last time) and disappointment with the vast majority of islands left a sour taste.