Skin Colour, Races and Racism

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

@Rummy, I'm sorry you're feeling that way .

 

Sadly, I've always felt the standard pub to contain a fair few ignorants, so I've generally avoided them. And I know what you mean about involving friends - for example, when my partner's dad comes over from Norway he loves the whole English pub culture and football, but its not always easy to take him around to pubs when I can acknowledge some tensions... Though its not as big as an issue as it might sound ie no confrontations etc (but I feel that's just because I'm a big man and people can see the 'fighter' on my face lol - which goes in line with my personal mantra that racists equal cowards).

[Beast]

So I'm sure you've all heard of the devastating news about George Floyd. I watched the whole video before fully knowing about it and it being reported properly in the UK and I was mortified. It actually made me cry. I don't usually cry at things but this had me crying through sadness, anger and frustration at how one human being (especially one in power) can treat another human being so disgustingly. It's very sad but the amount of support on anti-racism has been tremendous. I've been posting once a day on my INSTAGRAM Stories, just raising awareness and hoping to open dialogue and the amount of followers who have spoken to me about their experiences of police brutality and racism in the US (and a couple of instances in the UK) have been overwhelming. 

I feel powerless but I just felt like even talking and listening is the least I could do and it's worked. It's opened up dialogue and got people speaking. It's just a shame it's taken a life. Chauvin needs to be charged with second degree murder. 

I also can't believe the stuff that Anonymous posted about Trump too! 

[Goafer]

I could rant and get angry until the day I die, but I'll just quote my recent Facebook post, as it pretty much sums up my views on it:

Maybe, just MAYBE George Floyd's death was as a result of poor health. But after complaining that he was struggling to breathe, he was thrown into a cop car, dragged out again (for no clear reason) and then pinned down with a knee on his neck for 8 minutes, with the knee only being removed after he was unresponsive and a medic instructed the officer to do so. At no point did he show any signs of violence or present any threat to the officers.

The cause of death and any other factors that people will conjure up are irrelevant. This is not how you treat a human being.

[killthenet]

It's just horrifying that this still goes on. The double standards are almost satirically absurd - a few weeks ago a group of armed white protestors stormed a state capitol building in Michigan and I'm not sure they were even arrested, Trump described them on Twitter as 'good people' when in the past he called Colin Kaepernick scum for having the temerity to kneel during the national anthem in protest of racial injustice. When Ahmad Arberry was gunned down for jogging the media trawled his criminal record and insinuated that he had it coming because he had been arrested for shoplifting when he was a teenager. The father and son who killed him weren't even arrested until the cellphone video went viral online.

George Floyd was arrested for allegedly using a counterfeit $20 bill, according to most reports he didn't physically resist arrest but was held down by four police officers who continued to do so even when he became unconscious. The complete disconnect that still exists in US society between people from white backgrounds and  people from ethnic minority groups is appalling. Martin Luther King's infamous 'I Have A Dream' speech was 57 years ago and despite the great strides that have been made towards equality the attitudes of the authorities and much of the population is still heartbreakingly segregationist. 

It's astonishing to me that there aren't riots more often, the system has shown time and time again how broken it is. It's about damn time they had a real revolution in the US.

[Jonnas]

On one hand, it's good that incidents like this can still spark outrage. On the other hand, I know it's far from an isolated incident, more like business as usual, until this straw broke the camel's back. And it's appalling that I need to compare an event as tragic as this to something as light as a straw.

The mere fact that Trevor Noah, a man who literally grew up in Apartheid ("born a crime", he says), can find so much common ground between that society and current-day US should be a strong sign of how bad things are over there.

On a silver lining, that asshole Chauvin, who acted so brazenly and with so much impunity, seems to have lost his job, and his wife swiftly filed for divorce while he was dealing with the investigation against him. Laser-focused karma can ease the stress a bit... but I suppose what would really help would be actual, concrete measures to deal with the systemic racism that lead to that brazen impunity in the first place.

[Goafer]

1 hour ago, Jonnas said:

On a silver lining, that asshole Chauvin, who acted so brazenly and with so much impunity, seems to have lost his job, and his wife swiftly filed for divorce while he was dealing with the investigation against him. Laser-focused karma can ease the stress a bit... but I suppose what would really help would be actual, concrete measures to deal with the systemic racism that lead to that brazen impunity in the first place.

He's also been charged with third degree murder and second degree manslaughter.

[Beast]

1 hour ago, Goafer said:

He's also been charged with third degree murder and second degree manslaughter.

That is what annoys me too. In no way should that ever even be third degree. How do you put your full weight on a man's neck for near 10 minutes and expect him to live? Even when he was saying "I can't breathe" and even when civilians were telling Chauvin to ease off before and after Floyd lost consciousness and died on the road, he still didn't. The man knew what he was doing and if common sense never came in to play, he has no business being a man of the law and having that much power. To treat another human being like that is despicable enough but also, when the coroner/whoever came along and dragged him on the stretcher--disrespectful.

Also, an autopsy report has shown that Floyd did die of asphyxia due to compression on the neck and back. When I watched the video, I genuinely thought he died so I'm not at all surprised.

Chauvin's charge needs to be second degree and charges to the other three officers on the scene involved in the arrest need to be charged with accessory to the murder. 

[Goafer]

10 hours ago, Animal said:

That is what annoys me too. In no way should that ever even be third degree. How do you put your full weight on a man's neck for near 10 minutes and expect him to live? Even when he was saying "I can't breathe" and even when civilians were telling Chauvin to ease off before and after Floyd lost consciousness and died on the road, he still didn't. The man knew what he was doing and if common sense never came in to play, he has no business being a man of the law and having that much power. To treat another human being like that is despicable enough but also, when the coroner/whoever came along and dragged him on the stretcher--disrespectful.

Also, an autopsy report has shown that Floyd did die of asphyxia due to compression on the neck and back. When I watched the video, I genuinely thought he died so I'm not at all surprised.

Chauvin's charge needs to be second degree and charges to the other three officers on the scene involved in the arrest need to be charged with accessory to the murder. 

Not that I want to defend the guy at all, but I imagine it could be said that if George Floyd could still speak, then it was reasonable to assume he could actually breathe.

He also died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance, not on the street. Obviously as a result of what happened, but I imagine the courts will take that into account.

The guy's still an absolutely vile human being, but I imagine that'll be part of his defence and as judges have to act on facts and evidence, not anger, they'll have to take it into account. Whether they chose to believe it is up to them.

Although like I said, it's still a horrible way to treat a human being, regardless of circumstance. Once he was in the cop car, it was done. Everything else after that was spite and hatred.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Goafer

[Beast]

22 hours ago, Goafer said:

Not that I want to defend the guy at all, but I imagine it could be said that if George Floyd could still speak, then it was reasonable to assume he could actually breathe.

He also died of cardiac arrest in the ambulance, not on the street. Obviously as a result of what happened, but I imagine the courts will take that into account.

The guy's still an absolutely vile human being, but I imagine that'll be part of his defence and as judges have to act on facts and evidence, not anger, they'll have to take it into account. Whether they chose to believe it is up to them.

Although like I said, it's still a horrible way to treat a human being, regardless of circumstance. Once he was in the cop car, it was done. Everything else after that was spite and hatred.

And I'd find that wrong. Like if someone had a knee on your neck that way, you're not exactly going to find the right words and say "I'm struggling to breathe". If you can't breathe properly, then you can't breathe. The man sounded like he was struggling to me.

Also, I'm finding it hard to believe the reports whether it's true or not. I mean, it's not exactly going to say "died due to asphyxiation caused by an officer" because that would be admitting fault. He may well have died in the ambulance (although did anyone else notice the blokes dragging Floyd unconscious wore bulletproof vests. Is that a thing in America?) but I find it hard to believe when you have kept applying pressure on someone's neck for that long. I don't know, it just honestly seemed fishy to me. 

But yeah, he is absolutely vile and it's scary to see a man abusing the power of the law like that. 

[Goafer]

31 minutes ago, Animal said:

And I'd find that wrong. Like if someone had a knee on your neck that way, you're not exactly going to find the right words and say "I'm struggling to breathe". If you can't breathe properly, then you can't breathe. The man sounded like he was struggling to me.

Also, I'm finding it hard to believe the reports whether it's true or not. I mean, it's not exactly going to say "died due to asphyxiation caused by an officer" because that would be admitting fault. He may well have died in the ambulance (although did anyone else notice the blokes dragging Floyd unconscious wore bulletproof vests. Is that a thing in America?) but I find it hard to believe when you have kept applying pressure on someone's neck for that long. I don't know, it just honestly seemed fishy to me. 

But yeah, he is absolutely vile and it's scary to see a man abusing the power of the law like that. 

There's a video somewhere that shows the event from multiple angles and has a running commentary with additional info. It seems to be pretty accurate and unbiased (slightly biased against the officer if anything). It mentions that the ambulance crew said he the ultimate cause of death was cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Again, semantics really. Any fool can figure out that there was no need to drag him out of the car again and that then knee in his neck was what lead to his death, either directly or indirectly. It's just awful that people will try to use anything they can to wiggle out of responsibility.

Edit: found the link. It's not an easy watch, but it's a good account of what happened.

 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Goafer

[Beast]

27 minutes ago, Goafer said:

There's a video somewhere that shows the event from multiple angles and has a running commentary with additional info. It seems to be pretty accurate and unbiased (slightly biased against the officer if anything). It mentions that the ambulance crew said he the ultimate cause of death was cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Again, semantics really. Any fool can figure out that there was no need to drag him out of the car again and that then knee in his neck was what lead to his death, either directly or indirectly. It's just awful that people will try to use anything they can to wiggle out of responsibility.

Edit: found the link. It's not an easy watch, but it's a good account of what happened.

 

Man, that was horrible to watch and honestly even worse. I knew about everything but the calls and the actual number of incidents but hearing the commentary with it was helpful. I understand the video but seeing him on the pavement looking so lifeless with no officer helping just pisses me off.

The thing is, it's hard to know what to believe. The Floyd family got an autopsy out saying he died due to asphyxiation caused by pressure to the neck and back but then there's one saying (and this isn't an exact quote) cardiac arrest with no signs of strangulation while being restrained by a law enforcement officer.

Either way though, it's disturbing to see this happens. Officers need to be trained a lot more. Not all officers are that bad but even so, more training needs to be done.

[Goafer]

2 minutes ago, Animal said:

Man, that was horrible to watch and honestly even worse. I knew about everything but the calls and the actual number of incidents but hearing the commentary with it was helpful. I understand the video but seeing him on the pavement looking so lifeless with no officer helping just pisses me off.

The thing is, it's hard to know what to believe. The Floyd family got an autopsy out saying he died due to asphyxiation caused by pressure to the neck and back but then there's one saying (and this isn't an exact quote) cardiac arrest with no signs of strangulation while being restrained by a law enforcement officer.

Either way though, it's disturbing to see this happens. Officers need to be trained a lot more. Not all officers are that bad but even so, more training needs to be done.

I think the confusion comes from the difference between strangulation and asphyxiation. There probably weren't any signs of strangulation, as the weight pinning him down was what prevented him from breathing, not strangulation in the technical sense. Unfortunately, people looking for any excuse not to blame the officer will see that as evidence that he didn't cause the death.

Again, semantics really. Even if you believe they didn't cause George's death (which is a fucking stupid view in itself), there is absolutely no excuse for treating him the way they did.

And I can't agree with additional training. This was caused by hatred and spite. No training can cure that. They should never have been allowed to become officers. Whilst I'm sure there are good police officers, any system that allows this and the events that have happened since is completely broken.

[Jonnas]

14 minutes ago, Goafer said:

 And I can't agree with additional training. This was caused by hatred and spite. No training can cure that. They should never have been allowed to become officers.

"Training" can include diplomacy, demeanor, ethics training, non-violent takedowns, non-violent handling of prisoners, etc.

If they're unable to complete training, they're unfit for duty. Furthermore, it's easier to hold police accountable for misbehaviour when we know they had to sit through courses that strongly point out they shouldn't do it.

That's how training can help, though it would be just a start.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Jonnas

[Beast]

2 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

"Training" can include diplomacy, demeanor, ethics training, non-violent takedowns, non-violent handling of prisoners, etc.

If they're unable to complete training, they're unfit for duty. Furthermore, it's easier to hold police accountable for misbehaviour when we know they had to sit through courses that strongly point out they shouldn't do it.

That's how training can help, though it would be just a start.

Basically, this. I didn't mean physical training. I meant in everything else top such as what Jonnas has listed and has explained far better than I ever could. 

[Rummy]

The fight is not new; and I've been fighting and struggling against it since before the day I was born but....man; its the first time in a long while I've felt truly weary of battle. It's slightly shocked me how much this, even now in 2020, has managed to drain away from me. We're tired boss.

 

 

[Pestneb]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:40 AM, Animal said:

Chauvin's charge needs to be second degree and charges to the other three officers on the scene involved in the arrest need to be charged with accessory to the murder. 

I've kept myself as ignorant of this as I can - it makes me too angry. But that is exactly what needs to happen.

Some of these injustices in the US I can explain away to a degree - the threat of guns being involved and therefore the officers safety considerations being magnified compared to over here, I can give them, to a degree, the benefit of a doubt in certain circumstances. But far too often, like in this instance, they just take it too far. And I think the easy treatment they get is appalling, there were MULTIPLE officers there, one guy, they had him under control. Frankly, all three need to be thrown under a bus (figuratively). Makes me so angry, and the fact that the "justice" system protects them just makes me so angry. I remember a few years back I was in Barcelona in a hostel, and one of the people in our room was an American and we got talking, and the things she was describing she'd been through just made me so angry. I know the UK isn't perfect, but some of what goes on in the US just blows my mind. With that girl, even in spain, I was walking along with her and the looks we attracted from far too many people made me uncomfortable. I didn't want to call them out for several reasons, but it definitely felt rather racist, I've walked around with white girls and not seen comparable attention. Just very unpleasant.

[Beast]

23 hours ago, Pestneb said:

I've kept myself as ignorant of this as I can - it makes me too angry. But that is exactly what needs to happen.

Some of these injustices in the US I can explain away to a degree - the threat of guns being involved and therefore the officers safety considerations being magnified compared to over here, I can give them, to a degree, the benefit of a doubt in certain circumstances. But far too often, like in this instance, they just take it too far. And I think the easy treatment they get is appalling, there were MULTIPLE officers there, one guy, they had him under control. Frankly, all three need to be thrown under a bus (figuratively). Makes me so angry, and the fact that the "justice" system protects them just makes me so angry. I remember a few years back I was in Barcelona in a hostel, and one of the people in our room was an American and we got talking, and the things she was describing she'd been through just made me so angry. I know the UK isn't perfect, but some of what goes on in the US just blows my mind. With that girl, even in spain, I was walking along with her and the looks we attracted from far too many people made me uncomfortable. I didn't want to call them out for several reasons, but it definitely felt rather racist, I've walked around with white girls and not seen comparable attention. Just very unpleasant.

I've been talking to a lot of my followers who are American and were describing their experiences and telling me what they went through with the police and its crazy. Compared to over there, our police are tame. The thing is, racism exists absolutely everywhere but the police brutality over there is on another level of madness. 

I think, in a way, the Central Park incident that happened on the same day highlights the racism very much in the US and also paints it in a worse light.

 

This is worse because she actually weaponises his race to try and get him in trouble even though all he does is tell her to follow the rules and leash her dog which, by the way, she is strangling the shit out of. "There's an African American man threatening the lives of me and my dog"...the only person threatening the dog's life is her by hanging the poor thing! 

[Goafer]

Thankfully, that woman has now lost her job and the dog has been given back to the shelter that she adopted it from (she voluntarily gave it up).

Scary to think what happens if people don't video these sort of things though.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Goafer

[Rummy]

 

Man I took too long collating these(honestly got fucked off scropling actual twitter fucking internet searchings need to improve their shit for content not just clickhits ugh)

[Pestneb]

"British people are more appalled by accusations of racism"

This is the kind of statement that makes this whole issue into an echo chamber, gets those on side angry (which isn't exactly what's needed) and those not on side to dig their heels in.

 

[Rummy]

1 hour ago, Pestneb said:

"British people are more appalled by accusations of racism"

This is the kind of statement that makes this whole issue into an echo chamber, gets those on side angry (which isn't exactly what's needed) and those not on side to dig their heels in.

 

Indeed it is if taken out of context whilst being a leader statement/introduction to a whole lot of text afterwards explaining why that has been stated as a position in this conversation.

 

I did mention I spent far too long collating all those images it wasn't just for only a single sentence to be read and picked out

[Beast]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:53 AM, Rummy said:

The fight is not new; and I've been fighting and struggling against it since before the day I was born but....man; its the first time in a long while I've felt truly weary of battle. It's slightly shocked me how much this, even now in 2020, has managed to drain away from me. We're tired boss.

 

I truly understand how you feel. I feel so drained and tired and yet it's starting to become all I think about, even if I don't want to. Like, at least before, I could forget it sometimes and live but now, because it's very in-your-face, everybody wants to talk about it. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great but at the same time, my mental state has suffered from it. And the very thing I feared would happened, is now happening. The far right and white supremists are starting their own parade and campaign and I'm fearing the country will turn more racist. It's like when people knowingly elected Johnson and Trump knowing they had previous form for racism and prejudice. The fact is that everybody knew what was going on and everybody knew who they were because they never hid it in the first place and still they got elected. The trouble with this whole march/protests is that whilst it's nice to see people paying attention and starting to become anti-racist, they were needed the most at the elections when Johnson was outright being racist and outright being prejudice. They needed to speak up at that point but now we have him for another few years. 

Another thing that is starting to annoy me slightly is these comedians apologising for everything they did 20 years ago. For instance, Leigh Francis apologised for portraying black characters in Bo' Selecta. Honestly, I didn't see the issue. I still don't. He's playing Mel B. Mel B is black. He isn't making fun of her race but making fun of her as a personality. Same goes for the other characters he portrayed (apart from Trisha Goddard- which I can understand why). Same goes for Little Britain. Little Britain was a piss-take on people's supposed stereotypes of how everyone was. It's the same as how the Wayan Bros. portrayed blonde, white women in White Chicks. I know we all have different levels of offense but personally, I'm not offended by any of the shows mentioned above and have, in fact, got the boxsets of them. Comedy back then is different to comedy now. I just can't believe they're talking about Gavin and Stacey being offensive. I think there's bigger things to try and fight than shows like this, to be honest. If they were to make anyone apologise, surely it would be comedians like Roy Chubby Brown who are so outright with it?

 

[Pestneb]

On 6/12/2020 at 4:40 PM, Rummy said:

I did mention I spent far too long collating all those images it wasn't just for only a single sentence to be read and picked out

I did read the whole lot.

I'm not going to say that it is all wrong, but it really doesn't ring true to me, because I am lucky not to be surrounded by idiots. I've never been with a friend and witnessed overt xenophobia or any hate etc. I have seen these attitudes in person on two occassions in my life. Once was a work colleague. I strongly disliked him before and pretty much anything that came out his mouth was of zero value anyway. The other was a member of my group of friends who, again, I'm not keen on anyway and would be happy to never speak to him again. Obviously that means I have a nice bubble, my own real life echo chamber. But I do count myself as part of the UK, and wide sweeping comments (it has one at the end too) that effectively tell me I'm racist anyway don't exactly fall well.

and to break that comment down, when she says "British people" is she including herself in that? is she more offended by the accusations than the actual acts themselves? Or is she not considering herself as a real brit??

but w/e.

So this is a video one of my friends posted.. which I think is what those tweets were trying to get to (sorry for being a little pedantic Rummy I am, I think a little "ratty" these days. I like to blame confinement and hope that's all it is!)

Edited June 13, 2020 by Pestneb

[Rummy]

Why don't they fall well if you are not racist? Why does it make you feel racist but not me? Why does it make you feel racist but not other British people I know?

 

I was being tongue in cheek and trying to be careful with this as I think we've always got a long and had a healthy respect for each other in terms of posts opinions character on here etc and what not and I don't want to spoil it.

 

Without doing that and trying to have a go at YOU(because as I said I would say I already know and have a good measure of you) but you saying it males YOU feel uncomfortable and - you may not like this one - you essentially rephrasing 'AllLivesMatter' 'NotAllMen' 'NotAllCops' 'NotAllBritishPeople' is a huge part of the problem when these issues are raised. Too often suddenly only now do you want to talk about your hurt emotions; but you gotta understand its really quite demeaning and makes folks wanna roll their eyes when they have spent lile every day of their life being brown.

 

I understand you may have been able to avoid a lot of it - but you gotta realise trying to insist on this argument with me and that your line will have a merit of heavy worth is just very unlikely - and a part of some people when I say this is that because I am brown I am not 'british' enough to judge this situation compared to white critics - very much very much part of the problem. I'm probably in some if not even many ways even more British across a variety of measures than many people I even know. My experiences on top of this across a variety of fields also imo help me confidently say I am quite qualified to give my opinion on this with a level of authority - and no it isnt just by being brown. However I also don't like arguing from authority of trying to list my credentials as any sort of trump card. Less than even just 20 minutes ago I have told someone off for calling themselves not 'intelligent' enough to talk and engage with me explaining that some of the most educated people are also some of the dumbest fucks ever. Because all they do is wank themselves off in their credentials and people with similar in bubbles societies etc and just do not CARE to even think about other worlds. Again though - that is not you. Forgive the irony of the pun - but the point is that it really despite the topic at hand is NOT just black and white.

[Jonnas]

4 hours ago, Pestneb said:

and to break that comment down, when she says "British people" is she including herself in that?

Generally speaking, when somebody talks about "The thing about [country/city/people]" they rarely mean "The individuals of [country/city/people]", what they mean is "The society, culture, and overall attitude of [country/city/people]". For example, if I say "Portuguese people are always late", it's not supposed to be an accusation on myself or any person I know, I'm saying that "Lack of punctuality is very ubiquitous in our society, and nobody's surprised at a late arrival". Whether anybody in the conversation is punctual or not is besides the point.

This gets tricky when saying "The Portuguese discriminate against gypsies and blacks", because those minorities are also Portuguese, but it tracks that discrimination against gypsies and blacks is ubiquitous in our society. In other words, "The Portuguese" means "Portuguese society", and all it means is that the presence of discrimination against those two groups in particular is expected, should the subject come up.

So, to answer the question in that quote, when she says "British People", she's saying she expects British society to act like that, or to be lenient on the people who change the subject from "This is a racist thing" to "I didn't like the tone of that sentence". Whether that includes herself is ultimately irrelevant, because if she is one of the people who's more appalled by accusations of racism, few will fault her for that. They might be bothered by her hypocrisy, but likely not by the fact that she drew attention away from a racist thing.