flameboy Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 URGH makes me sick, arseholes who think they have the right to stop people running whatever they want a console... I jest. My point is simple though. Right now it's pretty unclear who is right. The courts will decide on that outcome. Maybe it will go like the "mobile telephony" (AKA iPhone) case last year and it will be ruled that these people had every right to utilise the hardware they own in any (legal) way that they see fit. Or maybe the courts will decide they're in breach of the DMCA. Nobody knows right now. Yeah your right if it turns out that these T&C's aren't legally watertight then I guess it opens another can of worms. Then sure there is a case for people being able to use utilise these hardwares in whatever way they want as long as it doesn't break laws such as piracy that are set in stone. I guess if that happens its up to Sony to either work out ways to keep "homebrew" going but somehow still lock out piracy which impossible. Or incentivice keeping legit so the majority of gamers do so. Also how were these root keys acquired? 100% legally? Guess that has a knock on effect.
Goafer Posted January 18, 2011 Posted January 18, 2011 I see similarities in the morality of this whole thing to the right to bear arms in america. Gun crime exists because there are guns! This is a fact. Hacks exist because there are hacks! Hacks can bring joy and interesting things, but also bad things! Guns can bring... well ok, maybe I should've used drugs in this analogy. Anyway! Short term; hacks can ruin the online experience. Long term; ps4. The gun crime thing is indeed a bad analogy. America has guns and gun crime, Canada has guns but relatively little gun crime, England "doesn't allow" guns, but we still have gun crime. The link between gun laws and gun crime vary a lot depending on which country you go to. Anyway, back on topic. The whole "why would you want to do that to a PS3 when you could just get a pc" argument is stupid. Why paint a picture when you could just take a photo? Why bike to the shops when you could just drive? Why play a game on hard, when the story is exactly the same on easy? Because some people find fun in challenges. For these people the challenge is hacking a PS3. These people probably can't afford to put themselves through university or whatever in order to get the relevant qualifications to become legitimate developers, so they just work with the things they have. Either that or they don't want to do it for a career and just do it for a hobby. They probably start on PCs, get bored with how easy they find it, then move on to things that do pose a challenge. I've done the whole piracy thing and I don't think I'll do it again. I found that I was getting too many games at the same time and wasn't really playing any of them. I'd just fire up one game, play it for a bit, then realise I still had 4 other new games to play and try them. I'd never go back to the first game. I play games a lot more thoroughly when I've paid my hard earned for them.
Debug Mode Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Bottom line is, people's livelihoods are being fucked with for sport and/or spite. If there's any justice, these bastard kids (and that American professor) will be sentenced to work exclusively at McDonald's until they learn a lesson about respecting other people's work. URGH makes me sick, arseholes who think they have the right to run whatever they want a console that isn't open source for a reason... Please, people.. Hackers =/= Pirates Too many people are jumping the gun that the hackers are the ones in the wrong. I do agree GeoHotz should have carefully considered how to publish the root keys, but it poses an interesting problem if he didn't do it that way. 1) It would have came out any way if he made a tool that could 'sign' homebrew for use on official firmware 2) If he just came out with a custom firmware rather than publishing the keys, Sony would disable PSN for the people with it installed, which is a retarded action. Sure, it has the benefits of delaying the hackers ruining online games (but lets face it, COD was easy to cheat without homebrew), but it prevents people who are well within the law, running only homebrew, from accessing online content for their games, including market place DLC which only cuts revenue. My house mate is currently enjoying SNES and Genesis emulators on his PS3, has no interest in piracy as he has enough money (and the fact getting ISO's onto the PS3 hard drive is a chore any way). I thought this was the console that only does everything?
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 It's simple really. For every genuine hacker, there'll be many more pirates. Running a small games studio is already risky enough without a naive minority who could do a better job on a cheaper PC without the detriment.
Pit-Jr Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Please, people.. Hackers =/= Pirates Too many people are jumping the gun that the hackers are the ones in the wrong. I do agree GeoHotz should have carefully considered how to publish the root keys, but it poses an interesting problem if he didn't do it that way. I dont think anyone is confusing pirates and hackers here. But look at the charges in the OP. Confidential Information On Computer Intent To Defraud And Obtain Value Knowing Transmission of Code Intentional and Reckless Damage And Loss Trafficking in Password Intent to Extort At least some if not all of these claims are valid, particularly the 3rd, 4th and last claims. How can any of that not be considered ''in the wrong''?
McPhee Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 It's simple really. For every genuine hacker, there'll be many more pirates. Running a small games studio is already risky enough without a naive minority who could do a better job on a cheaper PC without the detriment. I think the damage to small developers thing is played up way too much TBH. Small developers loose comparatively small numbers of sales, but can gain high levels of circulation through piracy. Big developers loose large numbers of sales but gain nothing in return, circulation wouldn't have suffered much if piracy didn't exist. I'm going to use Alan Wake as an example. It was pirated over 1.14 Million times in 2010. Microsoft have sold 50 Million Xbox 360 consoles worldwide, a "small percentage" being modded. Lets take that "small percentage" to be 4%, or 2 Million consoles. In that case, 57% of users with modded consoles downloaded Alan Wake. This compares to 850,000 legitimate sales across the other 48 Million consoles (assuming nobody with a modded console bought the game), or 1.77% of users. The short of it; nobody wanted to buy Alan Wake. If piracy never existed and the game appealed evenly across all users then you'd expect another 35,400 sales. The real figure would probably be a few thousand units higher. Alan Wake would still have been a flop, unless there was some attribute of the game that appealed massively more to people who pirate than those who don't. I'm not condoning piracy, just arguing against the idea that "it hurts the small guys most". In the Alan Wake example, if piracy ceased to exist sales wouldn't have likely improved much anyway. Instead over a Million fewer copies of the game would be in circulation. At least some people played it There's quite a few examples like this. Piracy damages the industry, but nowhere near as much as some make out. Some vendors have even learned to turn it to their advantage (Microsoft).
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Remedy Entertainment are not a good example if you're using them as a small developer (which I don't think you are). They had the huge backing of Microsoft to soften any blow (Not to mention a massive amount of advertising to even get those sales). I'm talking about studio's like my brother's that are amazingly vulnerable. The past 4 months have been stressful, to say the least. Edit: There's obviously a case either way but honestly, I have no idea why anyone would want to hack a PS3 when a cheaper PC would be able to do much more. It does irk me a lot but half the people I know are connected to the games industry in one form or another so I'm bias. Edited January 19, 2011 by Daft
McPhee Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I dont think anyone is confusing pirates and hackers here. But look at the charges in the OP. Confidential Information On Computer Intent To Defraud And Obtain Value Knowing Transmission of Code Intentional and Reckless Damage And Loss Trafficking in Password Intent to Extort At least some if not all of these claims are valid, particularly the 3rd, 4th and last claims. How can any of that not be considered ''in the wrong''? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. That's for some of America's best legal minds to decide. Trying to dissect the details on an internet forum with very little information to go on is a tad pointless. Time will tell if they are guilty of any of the above.
Goafer Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I have no idea why anyone would want to hack a PS3 when a cheaper PC would be able to do much more. I've already addressed this point twice in this thread (once on this page). It's the same reason you played through Darksiders on Hard. The fun is in the challenge.
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I've already addressed this point twice in this thread (once on this page). It's the same reason you played through Darksiders on Hard. The fun is in the challenge. Then why the need to release the hack?
Goafer Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Then why the need to release the hack? The same reason I post my photos in the creative gallery I imagine. Other reasons could include (but not limited to): Get critique/advice on how to improve it. Allow other people to learn from the code. Allow others to adapt the code to be used in their own homebrew. Give someone the idea to do something similar.
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 But in doing so you open the platform up to pirated games and a potentially buggered online experience for all? How utterly selfish.
Goafer Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I never said it was right, just explaining why some people do it. And I'm more on about "hackers" in general, not the guy who published the keys. Out of curiosity, what's the PC online community like? Surely that is a good guide for how much piracy and the like will effect online experiences. I'm assuming it's not that bad since people still play them.
Aimless Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Out of curiosity, what's the PC online community like? Surely that is a good guide for how much piracy and the like will effect online experiences. I'm assuming it's not that bad since people still play them. The situations aren't as comparable as you might think. Whilst the PC is an open platform most of its multiplayer games are server based, as opposed to peer-to-peer, which enacts a certain amount of control on what clients can and can't do. On top of that we're talking about games that carry cheating countermeasures on top of DRM; up until now PS3 games have had no need of such things. Basically the PC market is particularly cognisant of cheating because it's a fixture of the platform and gaming habits of those on the platform also tend to be markedly different. Neither cheating nor piracy are the end of the world, but clearly both are undesirable both for the platform holder and legitimate users; for the former they soak up time and resources that would be much better spent elsewhere. This is especially true when circumventing a system in such a way requires little to no effort, i.e. loading something off a USB stick as opposed to breaking out the soldering iron.
Mundi Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 too add to that, after Modern Warfare 2 went "No dedicated servers" on the PC, cheating became a gigantic problem for people online. I'm only going after from people who I know that played it on the PC. Just giving players an easy method to counter and/or kick players from their servers makes the cheating problem a lot easier to handle. Which is why dedicated servers are great.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 But in doing so you open the platform up to pirated games and a potentially buggered online experience for all? How utterly selfish. It's actually the complete opposite. Someone taking hours of their time so I can happily access features and applications that were not available originally for my enjoyment. What a cunt!
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 It's actually the complete opposite. Someone taking hours of their time so I can happily access features and applications that were not available originally for my enjoyment. What a cunt! Mmm, because most people won't use it to happily access content that they never paid for.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Mmm, because most people won't use it to happily access content that they never paid for. Most black people are thieves and murderers.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 There's precedent to back up my point. So, no. First of all. Once someone purchases a product, it is their's to do whatever they wish to do with it. You know why hacking a particular voids the warranty.. that's the price and risk they take when they do so. It's even stevens as far as I'm concerned. Also, I know how so many of you like to attribute hacking to straight up piracy, but put it simply. People will find a way to pirate games no matter what. Piracy will always exist, and every corporation knows this. All they can do is make it more difficult. You can demonise hackers and unlockers all you want, but let's take the 3ds for instance. That's region locked. I can only assume you won't hack it once that becomes possible to region unlock it, because doing so will only make you a hypocrite, but regardless. By limiting customers to that extent, it's only encouraging hacking. And thus it, by your admission, encourages piracy. Also, Piracy isn't that big of a problem as your big companies like to make you believe. It's still only a niche in countries such as this, America etc. Piracy will always be rampant in nations such as China, Eastern European countries, south america etc. But they were never gonna buy most of the games in the first place. Too pricey. Just a bit of perspective for you.
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I won't be getting a 3DS. One reason is that it's region locked. That's the choice I've made. How exactly is the PS3 limiting? Even with Linux in place people abused it.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I won't be getting a 3DS. One reason is that it's region locked. That's the choice I've made. How exactly is the PS3 limiting? Even with Linux in place people abused it. PS3 is region locked for movies. For some, that's enough to warrant a hack. And I don't remember the PS3 being abused way back then. Why did Sony even remove it in the first place? That could be seen as a catalyst.. especially people who brought the PS3 with the option for Linux in the first place. Removing it is removing a feature that people paid for. Can you justify that?
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Aimless posted somewhere about it being a direct response to it being made vulnerable. As a consumer you have a choice to buy a product or not. I'll agree removing Linux was a crap move but it was obviously seen as necessary to prevent what has now happened (Which is the system, and its user's experiences, being compromised - because that's also what you're paying to avoid when you buy the machine). Why else would Sony remove it? For shits and giggles?
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Aimless posted somewhere about it being a direct response to it being made vulnerable. As a consumer you have a choice to buy a product or not. I'll agree removing Linux was a crap move but it was obviously seen as necessary to prevent what has now happened (Which is the system, and its user's experiences, being compromised - because that's also what you're paying to avoid when you buy the machine). Why else would Sony remove it? For shits and giggles? Why prolong the inevitable? Why piss off the people who wanted to use it for legitimate purposes? And once again, hacking is at the users risk. If they brick it, sucks to be them. Company have a right to ignore this user because by hacking, they voided their warranty. It's really simple. You cannot prevent it. If you want to refuse to do it because of your own principles, then that's your own choice.
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Because the inevitable is piracy. Why is that so hard to see? If I'd spent years making a game I wouldn't want some cock slap stealing it. Anyway, I'm bored of this. What's done is done.
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