How do you solve a problem like North Korea?

[stuwii]

We have to admit the real world version of communism was pretty awful

[Nicktendo]

Cut the bullshit, Democracy is a better system and you know it.

 

ipaul has spoken. Close the thread now.

[MoogleViper]

We have to admit the real world version of communism was pretty awful

 

So because there were some evil communists that means that all comunists are evil?

 

Using your logic (as much at is pains me to call it that) then all watford fans must be complete morons. Would that be a fair comment?

 

We've already covered your failed attempt at logic and understand in your previous thread. And you didn't get it then. So I may just ignore you now.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

We have to admit the real world version of communism was pretty awful

Except that didn't really have much to do with communism at all in the end. It had been twisted and perverted into a terrible regime.

[ipaul]

That was aimed at stuwii.

 

Ah fair enough.

 

ipaul has spoken. Close the thread now.

 

Well hey, if you want to suggest that the opposite is the case, be my guest by all means. I'm just saying it's... unlikely I'll be convinced.

 

Also, I'm not exactly pro capitalist myself. But do you really think it's pitfalls are worse than the troubles that the people of North Korea experience?

Edited September 24, 2010 by ipaul

[Nicktendo]

China and Russia. Moved on. Developed. Simple.as.

 

Actually Russia and Eastern Europe was plunged into deep poverty. Simple facts on the United Nations Development Programme...

 

-Life expectancy was at an average 67 at the end of the Soviet Union - 62 in the 90s in Russia (for men it was just 60). The suicide rate doubled.

-Unemployment quadrupled between 1989 and 1994.

-HIV infections rose 8 times between 1990 and 2000 due to poor social condition, increased use of drugs and expensive healthcare.

-The cost of living rose from 2.5% of income in Soviet times to an average of 40% in modern Russia.

 

Development FTW.

[ipaul]

New stuff added to the original post as I appreciate putting up that one video was a bit crap of me :P

[Nicktendo]

Ah fair enough.

 

 

 

Well hey, if you want to suggest that the opposite is the case, be my guest by all means. I'm just saying it's... unlikely I'll be convinced.

 

Also, I'm not exactly pro capitalist myself. But do you really think it's pitfalls are worse than the troubles that the people of North Korea experience?

 

It's a very difficult and complex process to explain on a forum. The working of the capitalist system on the Third World is a horrific and inhuman act which enslaves the world's poorest to support the luxurious lifestyles of the West. The way it is all linked together is very difficult to explain and understand.

 

However in our comfortable, individualist lifestyle where we are influenced by the mass media it can be even more difficult to comprehend this situation and instead it's easier to target everyone who doesn't follow our agenda (namely Iran and North Korea) - We can label them as brutal, harsh, dictatorial - but the fact is, we know very, very little of North Korea other than what we are told by the generally right wing media (who, as always, have an agenda).

 

I am NOT arguing that North Korea is perfect or even good. I, like probably everyone else, does not know the extent of what happens there. We are told that Kim Jong Il runs a cult of personality. It's highly probable this is the case, but you have to understand that having communism and capitalism in the same world is unworkable - people get seduced by material goods and wealth and proceed to value themselves above (at the expense of) society, when in reality this lifestyle is only achievable for a marginal percentage of the population, much like in the West. What North Korea has done is removed this aspect from their society by installing a cult of personality. So while to us it may seem barbaric, is it not just the opposite in the way that we worship the stuff we can buy and spend our money on? I can accept that this may be a difficult concept to agree with but this is simply my take on why there is a cult of personality. They do have the internet and mobile phones to communicate internally as external communication would undermine the regime.

 

I know pretty much everyone will know where they stand on the above issue, and I'd be with you, but "choice" and "freedom" is merely a smokescreen to give people an excuse to open the world up to exploitation. I can guarantee if North Korea was not the way it was, it would just be another production line for the West and people's actual quality of life would be no better, if not worse as the state provides them with a home and what little food they can produce. The country is far too small to effectively sustain communism, the land is poor and they cannot feed the entire population because of trade restrictions imposed by the West. So, before you shout about the government being shit and not being able to support their people, without food imports, they can't because the land is not suitable for such an extent of agricultural production. However, if they DID open up and accept help from the West, just like the rest of South East Asia (namely Vietnam) it would come with conditions, such as freeing up the economy. So they are in a lose, lose situation.

 

What's really sad, is that this kind of practise has become the norm in the wider world and when someone stands up to this kind of imperialism they are labelled as evil. I would argue that the cult of personality sustained by Kim Jong Il is wrong, however in context of the wider world I can understand why it's perhaps necessary (even if I don't agree with it, per se). However I DO think that much of the stuff we are told about North Korea is distorted in an effort to undermine the regime, if things are bad in North Korea, then much of the blame must be attributed to the West for isolating the country and imposing barbaric restrictions. People attribute poor human rights to the country but as I mentioned before it is because they have not been able to sustain the current system in the country since the collapse of the Soviet Union which provided them with support and food.

 

And for all of you that have such a harsh view of communism, it is not evil. Certainly no more evil than capitalism. In 1996, 5 years after communism fell, the Communist Party of Russia still polled 40% of the vote in the general election despite 5 years of anti-communist media, propaganda, new found "freedom" and "opportunity." So while they had initially got rid of it, many people realised that Western life was not all it was cracked up to be.

 

Here you go, read the part about "The 1996 presidential election" and make your own mind up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_post-Soviet_Russia#The_1996_presidential_election

Edited September 24, 2010 by Nicktendo

[EEVILMURRAY]

I think Kim Jong Il is a tit

Don't be too hard on him, he's so ronery.

[ipaul]

My political position is such that I am tempted to call myself a socialist. I hate the things corporations do to other countries, such as Shell fucking up Nigeria, or Nestlé ruining rain forests and causing problems for many babies around the world (to put it mildly).

 

I also despise some of the interventions that the US has conducted in other countries, such as in Chilé.

 

A cult of personality is a delicate way to put something so sinister, but I suppose it is not inaccurate. You try living without 'choice' and 'freedom' for a while, see how you like it. Adoration for products and brands can be perverse, but do you really think this is as bad as being forced to worship your leader as a god? Having a radio in your house that cannot be turned off, only turned down? Having to keep portraits of the great leader and the dear leader in your house? Not having any music/films/literature - indeed, no culture at all?

 

All the evidence suggests that North Korea is a real world 1984 and though I despise the cult of consumerism, it is a small ill compared to complete and utter totalitarianism.

[Nicktendo]

All the evidence suggests that North Korea is a real world 1984 and though I despise the cult of consumerism, it is a small ill compared to complete and utter totalitarianism.

 

That's a fair point, however...

 

People enslaved by consumerism - 1-3 billion (liberal and conservative estimates)

People enslaved by totalitarianism - 20-25 million.

 

You try living without 'choice' and 'freedom' for a while, see how you like it.

 

I do live without freedom and choice. I have insufficient funds to fulfil my material desires. So to do so I will have to resort to crime. :p

 

Freedom is a myth. We are free to choose who we want to lead us. But we still have to spend roughly 50%+ plus of our wage just to live/survive or face jail/penalites for financial crimes. That's not freedom, that's being economically enslaved.

Edited September 24, 2010 by Nicktendo
Automerged Doublepost

[ipaul]

That's a fair point, however...

 

People enslaved by consumerism - 1-3 billion (liberal and conservative estimates)

People enslaved by totalitarianism - 20-25 million.

 

 

 

I do live without freedom and choice. I have insufficient funds to fulfil my material desires. So to do so I will have to resort to crime. :p

 

Freedom is a myth. We are free to choose who we want to lead us. But we still have to spend roughly 50%+ plus of our wage just to live/survive or face jail/penalites for financial crimes. That's not freedom, that's being economically enslaved.

 

Although we may never be truly 'free', we have infinite freedom and choice compared to those who live in North Korea.

 

Are you so anti capitalist that you believe nothing can be worse, only just as bad?

[Nicktendo]

Are you so anti capitalist that you believe nothing can be worse, only just as bad?

 

Pretty much. You can't even begin to imagine how bad capitalism is because in the West we can live a whole life without even seeing the extent of the damage it does.

[ipaul]

Pretty much. You can't even begin to imagine how bad capitalism is because in the West we can live a whole life without even seeing the extent of the damage it does.

Well I feel our little debate can't continue then. We'll get no further with this.

[Ten10]

Don't be too hard on him, he's so ronery.

 

Awww someone beat me to it:

 

 

 

[Shorty]

One thing that has always bothered me about that song is that he adds one too many "r" in the word "seriously" (see 0:40).

[Ten10]

One thing that has always bothered me about that song is that he adds one too many "r" in the word "seriously" (see 0:40).

 

I think it's something to do with there being no equalivalent letter to the letter L in east asian languages, and r is usually used as a subsititute.

 

This somewhat sums it upL http://maki.typepad.com/justhungry/2007/12/why-japanese-pe.html although this resource specifies Japanese it goes for Korean and Chinese as well I believe.

[Pookiablo]

ipaul - may I suggest two very good books that might help you to understand Nicktendo's viewpoint a little better?

 

Naomi Klein is the author of both - they're called "No Logo" and "The Shock Doctrine".

 

Read No Logo first - it's a real eye-opener. The Shock Doctrine is perhaps even more of a chilling read (especially for a non-fiction book). I'm not saying they're fact by any means but it does get you thinking about things differently.

 

And Nicktendo, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were a former Red Army Faction terrorist, given your view on economic enslavement, lol! Thanks for the interesting posts, was an enjoyable read!

[Jonnas]

I do live without freedom and choice. I have insufficient funds to fulfil my material desires. So to do so I will have to resort to crime. :p

 

Freedom is a myth. We are free to choose who we want to lead us. But we still have to spend roughly 50%+ plus of our wage just to live/survive or face jail/penalites for financial crimes. That's not freedom, that's being economically enslaved.

 

I'm pretty sure he meant freedom of speech. I'd rather be enslaved to my money and (chosen) lifestyle than to the government I happened to be born in.

 

You do realize that, in these countries, you're not allowed to criticize the system, and even mentioning that an alternative exists can get you in trouble.

 

For the record, I have nothing against socialism/communism per se, my beef is with these radical governments which are rotten, no matter what they claim to be.

[ipaul]

ipaul - may I suggest two very good books that might help you to understand Nicktendo's viewpoint a little better?

 

Naomi Klein is the author of both - they're called "No Logo" and "The Shock Doctrine".

 

Read No Logo first - it's a real eye-opener. The Shock Doctrine is perhaps even more of a chilling read (especially for a non-fiction book). I'm not saying they're fact by any means but it does get you thinking about things differently.

 

And Nicktendo, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were a former Red Army Faction terrorist, given your view on economic enslavement, lol! Thanks for the interesting posts, was an enjoyable read!

 

Thanks for the recommendations but as it happens, I already very much enjoy Klein's work. I'm working my way through the Shock Doctrine - the Chilé reference I made earlier was from what I have read in that book.

 

Also thank you for getting my name right, no one does. (ipaul, not iPaul)

[Diageo]

Thanks for the recommendations but as it happens, I already very much enjoy Klein's work. I'm working my way through the Shock Doctrine - the Chilé reference I made earlier was from what I have read in that book.

 

Also thank you for getting my name right, no one does. (ipaul, not iPaul)

I know right? People have no consideration these days.

[Pookiablo]

Thanks for the recommendations but as it happens, I already very much enjoy Klein's work. I'm working my way through the Shock Doctrine - the Chilé reference I made earlier was from what I have read in that book.

 

Also thank you for getting my name right, no one does. (ipaul, not iPaul)

 

Ah good man! The impression I get from her is that all governments are just as bad as each other when it comes to the economy & human rights. What a world.

 

Anyway, I know I'm a selfish, materialistic son-of-a-gun and I'm not afraid to admit it. Now if you don't mind, I need to count my money while I drink my imported coffee in my Made in China mug.

[stuwii]

Except that didn't really have much to do with communism at all in the end. It had been twisted and perverted into a terrible regime.

 

Like I said it was pretty awful

[ipaul]

I know right? People have no consideration these days.

 

Ah it doesn't really bother me, I just find it curious. Maybe because Apple capitalise the names of their products like that, people assume it's the case with me.

[MoogleViper]

Like I said it was pretty awful

 

We're not disputing that it wasn't awful. But it wasn't communism that was awful, it was the leaders.