Captain Falcon Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Or to put it another way: The stories are means to an end, simply concocted around whatever new mechanic Nintendo wants to implement. Of course this is the real reason and Nintendo have been very honest about it being the case from the moment they tried to make the story any more than 2 lines worth of text to slap on the back of the box. I just didn't want to be so blunt about it and was looking for a way to make it all fit for those who are overly occupied with the stories. It is human nature to try and order/reconcile a series of events to gain further understanding. We look for connections in everything whether they are there to be found or not.
Burny Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 We look for connections in everything whether they are there to be found or not. Fair enough Personally I just couldn't be bothered to scrutinize the games for connections, although they certainly are there both clear and vague. You could say that's because I've forgotten half of the plot details a mere two weeks after finishing the games of course. What with all the medallions, pieces of artifacts that somehow do something in the story. It's usually only the characters that I can remember. I just have the feeling that whenever the time line discussion arises, the handful of people participating in it in any given Nintendo forum put more thought into it over the span of a couple of pages, than Nintendo's devs have done during the last decade.
Captain Falcon Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 I just have the feeling that whenever the time line discussion arises, the handful of people participating in it in any given Nintendo forum put more thought into it over the span of a couple of pages, than Nintendo's devs have done during the last decade. I think my posts alone in this thread equates to more time/effort than Nintendo have ever put in to the story :p
Dante Posted January 11, 2012 Author Posted January 11, 2012 The 60 pages of skyward sword artwork and concepts. On a different note, maybe this has come up in the hyrule historia thread, but I'm curious as to how the sages fit into this all now. Did they exist prior to this game? There is no mention of them. The intro that tells of the people coming together to help Hylia seal Demise shows the outline of the different races and perhaps the leaders of the different creatures were the first sages. I don't recall it being touched upon in game but if it was, would someone care to tell me. We already have the the reincarnation of Hylia in Zelda and the deal surrounding Link. Plus Fi and the Dragons. Adding sages to the mix feels like mystical overkill to me to the point I want this to be before the sages came into being so I can at least part explain how a world with so many good and powerful magical beings keeps getting shafted by some red haired goon. The Hyrule Histroia says "Temple of Time - The only entrance to the Temple of Light in the Sacred Realm. Though it bears the same name as the temple that stood in the desert in ancient times, the Temple of Time constructed by Rauru is thought to be located where the Sealed Temple once stood." and the sage medallions are on the ceiling of the vestibule of the Sealed Temple but Hyrule Historia doent say much about them.
yesteryeargames Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Why are nintendo being such idoits about this book is there any hint at all of a world release?, they could sell so many if it were in english.
Ronnie Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 Why are nintendo being such idoits about this book is there any hint at all of a world release?, they could sell so many if it were in english. Yep, instead it's being scanned in and distributed online for all to see for free. Idiots.
Captain Falcon Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 The Hyrule Histroia says "Temple of Time - The only entrance to the Temple of Light in the Sacred Realm. Though it bears the same name as the temple that stood in the desert in ancient times, the Temple of Time constructed by Rauru is thought to be located where the Sealed Temple once stood." and the sage medallions are on the ceiling of the vestibule of the Sealed Temple but Hyrule Historia doent say much about them. Which would imply the Sealed Temple was knocked down and the Temple of Time was built around the Mastersword (since I was under the impression only the chosen hero can remove it) rendering my long ass post of top class moaning regarding it's placement somewhat irrelevant - don't I look the plank :p
Grazza Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Brilliant article from 1Up. I agree with it 100%, apart from the bit about Fi, which I'm not bothered about and I also think there were a few good characters outside of Skyloft: http://www.1up.com/features/five-ways-skyward-sword-went-wrong?pager.offset=1 Five Ways Skyward Sword Went Wrong How Nintendo's latest Zelda dropped what once made the series so legendary. By: Bob MackeyJanuary 26, 2012 Just as Link's debut proved the true potential of the NES, Ocarina of Time convinced the world that polygonal third-person gaming could be more than an ambitious-but-clumsy mess. Soon after Zelda's monumental N64 installment, the series expanded its scope by playing with time travel (Majora's Mask), and opening up an entire ocean of possibilities for young Link to explore (The Wind Waker); but from 2006's Twilight Princess onwards, The Legend of Zelda swapped its once-daring nature for a more eager-to-please, conservative philosophy which proves irritating for those who've stuck with the series for more than two decades. Skyward Sword is the latest victim of Nintendo's one-size-fits-all style of game design, and as a result, falls short of the potential possible from a studio overflowing with talent. Much of the game involves Link revisiting old areas under the thinnest of pretenses, where he undergoes tedious and unimaginative tasks like tracking down collections of hidden items and participating in a series of mandatory and increasingly dull time trials. And considering the fact that Skyward's version of Hyrule contains only three distinct settings, the constant backtracking wears out its welcome far before you realize the entire game plays like a broken record. Skyward Sword has its share of amazing moments, but they're hard to remember when separated by so much padding. Even the series' day/night cycle has been excised in Skyward Sword, replaced with a binary option (the equivalent of a virtual light switch) used to solve a handful of side-quests in a shockingly small number of locations. The former ability to tinker with so many elements of Hyrule gave this fictional world a certain sense of veracity; in comparison, Skyward Sword comes off as a look-but-don't-touch Zelda museum. Skyward Sword may cut down on aimless wandering by opening up accessible areas essentially one "level" at a time, but in doing so, the game world feels disconnected, linear, and completely lacking in surprises. Artificial barriers once prevented Link from straying too far from his goals, but now they're removed entirely in favor of game design that doesn't even make you aware of an area until your next objective justifies its existence. And even then, you aren't free to explore at your own pace, as Skyward's dowsing system leads you from target to target, essentially dictating the terms of exploration; even the old "return to old places with new items" strategy has been replaced with forced revisitations, taking all the joy out of finding out-of-the-way items yourself. The game offers a network of fail-safes to prevent players from evading their goals, but discovering trinkets and oddities off the beaten path once made the Zelda series so deeply rewarding. Well worth a read. Hooray for such perceptive writing.
Ronnie Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) Sadly it's very hard to disagree with any of those five points IMO. A very well thought out article, and just goes to show how high the bar is for Zelda games. Those sort of things are the differences between good and great Zelda games. It's why I don't understand when people say HD graphics will save Zelda and make the Wii U game amazing. There are far more important things they need to focus on, as mentioned in that article. Edited January 28, 2012 by Ronnie
Mokong Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 I have to disagree with this part And even then, you aren't free to explore at your own pace, as Skyward's dowsing system leads you from target to target, essentially dictating the terms of exploration; I don't see why people keep bringing up the dowsing and say you can't explore at your own pace? You can explore at you own pace just don't use the dowsing.... it's an entirely optional thing. I would only use it the once when you get a new dowsing item to find, to stop the beeping/reminder thing. After that I would never use the dowsing and explored the area where I wanted and at my own pace. At least it is an optional thing unlike for example in an FPS where you have that white dot in the middle of the screen holding your hand not only telling you were to go but the distance to it. Granted Zelda is certainly not an FPS but I never see reviews/articles complain about that feature in FPS games which is not optional in most (maybe there's some were you can turn it off but if so I've not played it...as I don't play many FPS's anyway but the ones I have all have it), yet the dowsing in SS is fully an optional feature.
Fused King Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Well, well, well, here I am, FINALLY! In the realm of the spoiler section regarding The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword. I finished it yesterday. It took me about 45 hours, and what a journey it's been. I went back a couple of pages in this thread, but got all dizzy because of all the interpertations and whatnot. Makes me love you guys a whole lot more:hug: I'm just going to present some likes and dislikes here: DISLIKED The lack of the day/night cyclus + lack of the moon cyclus. The fact that you cannot fly at night I really hadn't expected the world above the clouds to be this limited and not full of life. I think ever since someone mentioned 'Windwaker style exploration' I figured the cloud world would be HUGE. Even bigger than Windwaker's map. I don't think any Zelda game to date has got this right, but I'd have loved to see a much higher rate of revisitability of other races. I think it's sad that there's usually only one hub where everything happens and that I couldn't go to the Mogmas, the Kikwis, or any of the others to do some minigames and have different experiences with them along the game. THE HANDHOLDING! I can cope with a little, but when Fi starts telling me that it might be a good idea to go this way, or that I should have a look at this door (with an overexaggerative camera showing me the keyhole) I felt like I was being treated like a retard:laughing: It's hard to put Fi under here, for I liked her interpretive dances, but after having gone through an adventure with Midna and The King of Red Lions, and currently going through an adventure with Ezlo, I must say that she falls a bit short. I don't hate her though... Again, I thought I heard somewhere that we'd be getting sidequests á la Majora's Mask in the main town, but I really did see none of that. I mean, there were a few cool ones, but Skyloft really didn't feel like a coherent town where people went about doing their thing. I guess walking around in circles is doing a thing too though Showing you again, and again, and again, and again, and again, AND AGAIN each time you boot up the game that you have now found tumbleweed/a locust/a golden skull and then showing you how that adds up to the amount that you already have. Throughout the game I noticed that, once again, there's more than plenty of rupees coming your way, and little interesting things to do with it. WHERE WAS MY ICE SECTION LIKE IN THE TRAILER!!!!! I'd have liked to visit a Goron town somewhere along the way (their my favourite race, after all) but hey.... The linearity of the dungeons. Gaepora's small role and his strange attitude towards the whole situation. Come to think of it, I'm kind of bothered that no one in Skyloft hardly took any interest in Link's epic quest. I had expected a bit more interaction between the Skyloftians and the world below since the tornado took Zelda. The townspeople weren't really talking about it.... I found it to be quite a let down that you weren't really tested on your Power, Courage and Wisdom. Instead you just had to do the same Silent Realm thing in all three areas...(which was way too easy in the first two if I do say so myself) Everytime I had to whip out the ol' harp and Fi had to sing, I couldn't help but marvel at how, well, ....shitty it was executed. The animation is just loopy and awkward. I mean, just look at Fi, LOOK AT THAT!!! Also, these tunes could've been way more memorable... My biggest dissapointment is without a doubt the music. Considering the allround epicness of the orchestration in the Super Mario Galaxy series, I had expected a bit more memorable tunes such as Gerudo Valley or something. Still, when I thought more about it and started to hear more, I really came to terms with the fact that music in The Legend of Zelda should be that of ambiance not of grandeur. So it dissapointed me at first, but it grew on me it did get better and better. The OST will definitely come into my collection! LIKED THE ARTSTYLE!!! Though I had to get used to the jaggies first, but once you play it for a longer period of time, your eyes start to adjust and it becomes creamworthy! The whole chandelier episode (Really making fun of Link's love for destruction). The same thing goes for the antique lady. I really liked some of the characters in Skyloft. For example Rupin, Batreaux, The potion maker with his baby on his back, Kukiel and her dad, Strich, and even Fledge grew on me. Owlan and Horwell reminded me or The Lord of The Rings for some reason Some bosses were really well crafted, I really liked the octopus one and Koloktos (The golden statue). Ancient Cistern blew my mind away in terms of atmosphere and style, as did some other dungeons too. And we now know that Buddhism exists (or at least existed) in the world of the Legend of Zelda. Levias! My main whale! Is he some kind of decendant of the Wind Fish or the Ocean King? Freeing him from that parasite + the build up to it was really awesome! The porn between Link and Zelda. The references to future Zeldas and a deeper explanation of The Legend of Zelda mythos. Motionplus really turned out quite well, but more finetuning is needed. THE RETURN OF BEEDLE The flying on your Loftwing felt really great and instilled a sense of freedom. It's just sad that there was so little to go to:( The whole use of the Timeshift Stones was quite unique and very creative! Especially the whole boat episode with good ol' Skipper, even though I expected something a bit more grand when we finally got his boat back. Some sort of pirate battle or something.... Groose grew on me, he grew on me. Ghirahim, Ghirahim, Ghirahim.....I'd like to know on which NINTENDO employee you are based:laughing: He's most certainly one of the strangest antagonist I've ever come across in a Zelda game, and the word 'metrosexual' kept popping up in my head. His final form was freaking sweet though! I hope to see him back in Smash Bros. Demise. :o HOLY FUCK! He felt very unzelda-y in this colourful setting, but he was so damn badass! I found it quite funny that he essentially explained the entire The Legend of Zelda series in a few lines when murdered by Link(That bit about them being cursed for all eternity) Well, that's it for me. I probably could go on and on and on, but I have other games to play too. Skyward Sword didn't quite live up to what I was expecting from it, but it was still quite the satisfying Zelda experience. I'had hoped there would be more reinvention implemented beyond motionplus and a tad of 'dungeons become overworld', but perhaps the WiiU can give us another risque kind of Zelda experience. I think I'll be reading up on some timeline stuff at some Zelda site now, for, now that I have started to play Minish Cap again, I can't help but wonder what happens between Skyward Sword and The Minish Cap, because apparently the Minish (Picori) came down from the sky and granted humanity the Picori blade. Ah well, as Captain Falcon said, it is a Legend. My top 3 still remains firmly estabilished: 1. The Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker 2. The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap 3. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
EEVILMURRAY Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Now they need another prequel explaining how the dungeons were created. Someone/thing had to make those deathtraps.
Beverage Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 @Ronnie you agwii that the gameplay could do with some improving (i.e. the games quite shit, good, but quite shit, if u follow mii?) but are u suggesting that other areas shan't be improved upon (to make the overall experience more satisfying... sexy visual can help to make things more engaging, compelling, emotional [you are able to see clearer/realistic emotions] etc) just because another area is lacking?.. One thing is executed shit so let's just go ahead and make the whole entire thing shit now shall wii! Comprende? :wink: @Fused King wouldn't having an living earth in the sky kind of contradict the story (the Godess' main objective)? She used the last bit of power to rip out a piece of earth to protect the Triforce (and yes, the small number of peeps), not really so much to make a earth-sized country up in the skies. But I do fully understand, screw the obvious, just make gameplay awesome (which would've been epic!). But I personally can understand and accept to a reasonable extent why it weren't so broad and full of life up there. And sorry, for me, that Demise fellow turned out to be so pathetic he was almost funny.
Ronnie Posted January 28, 2012 Posted January 28, 2012 Comprende? :wink: No? Feel free to rephrase properly if you can be arsed. The problems with Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have nothing to do with the visuals, be they expressions, art style, texturing, polygon count. A few people have suggested that Zelda in HD will 'save' the franchise, when IMO, adding fancy graphics would just papering over the cracks. @Fused King: I found it to be quite a let down that you weren't really tested on your Power, Courage and Wisdom. That was actually explained in the game. Power: battling with all the bosses Wisdom: puzzle solving Courage: the Silent Realm trials a deeper explanation of The Legend of Zelda mythos. I was actually disappointed there wasn't a bit more of this. It didn't add a huge amount to the mythology I thought, apart from a couple of big developments obviously. I'm also sad that you didn't have a deeper connection with your Loftwing, especially after the pre-surface bit at the start of the game. After that he just became a way to get from point a to point b. As for the sky, I think it's unreasonable to expect a Wind Waker-like area in size and scope, given this game also had a huge surface world to explore and Wind Waker didn't. Battle with Demise, I enjoyed it but it was a little anti-climactic given the final battle stages of OOT, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Hell even Spirit Tracks.
Fused King Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 That was actually explained in the game. Power: battling with all the bosses Wisdom: puzzle solving Courage: the Silent Realm trials I'm also sad that you didn't have a deeper connection with your Loftwing, especially after the pre-surface bit at the start of the game. After that he just became a way to get from point a to point b. Yeah, I sort of got that explanation, but it still felt weird that you did things in 'Din's Silent Realm of Power' etc.. I second your Loftwing criticism. Heck, I would've loved to give it goggles so we could fly at night:laughing:
Grazza Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 The problems with Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have nothing to do with the visuals, be they expressions, art style, texturing, polygon count. A few people have suggested that Zelda in HD will 'save' the franchise, when IMO, adding fancy graphics would just papering over the cracks. That's not it at all, Ronnie. A sharp display helps, and I fully admit that I favour good graphics and high resolution, but when I say "HD console", I'm even more interested in the increased processing grunt implicit in that. Up until now, Nintendo haven't had the technology to build a proper Hyrule, or at least one that is more advanced than OOT's, hence the strange structure of Skyward Sword. Twilight Princess was a better attempt at a dry-land overworld, but still limited by the technology. So when I look forward to an HD Zelda, I look forward to the Hyrule of my imagination being realised, as well as better graphics.
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 That's not it at all, Ronnie. A sharp display helps, and I fully admit that I favour good graphics and high resolution, but when I say "HD console", I'm even more interested in the increased processing grunt implicit in that. Up until now, Nintendo haven't had the technology to build a proper Hyrule, or at least one that is more advanced than OOT's, hence the strange structure of Skyward Sword. Twilight Princess was a better attempt at a dry-land overworld, but still limited by the technology. So when I look forward to an HD Zelda, I look forward to the Hyrule of my imagination being realised, as well as better graphics. I certainly do hear ya Grazza... But what good is having the technology if the developers are lazy? Nintendo seemed to have been progressively lazy concerning overworlds, prefering the minimalist route, since the WW. Ocarina of Time was a great start, and Majora's Mask's was a luxury considering todays standards of Zelda world building. I don't see why something doubly as impressive couldn't have been done on the Wii or even the Gamecube. If its only down to technology surely we'll be met with the same designs in future Zeldas as polygons increase? I think after three solid console titles they would have fixed this concern.
Grazza Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 (edited) Fair point, @King_V. I can't really argue against that because, as you say, Majora's Mask was on N64 and was still better. Also, I have honestly played PS2 games with much better overworlds, such as Dragon Quest VIII and Shadow of the Colossus. Edited January 29, 2012 by Grazza
Ronnie Posted January 29, 2012 Posted January 29, 2012 So we're back to: the move to HD will make the game look prettier, but unless Nintendo fix the glaring issues that have plagued the last two major Zelda titles, and not just to do with the overworld, we're back to square one, just with a sexy HD game world, ie. window dressing.
Beverage Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 @Ronnie, seeing as you're trying to lie to yourself, I'll break it down for u like this... Seeing as The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Soared isn't plain crap (it's a very good game), before you played this game (hell, even after you've played) and you had the option to buy the exact game that you currently own or the exact game just that the graphics were 'holy heavens!' awesome, please tell me which one you'd buy in a flash?... The reason that u would buy the "sexy" copy (ah, I know u would ) is the precise reason why this "window dressing" would be appreciated for the overall experience. ... Phuckit, I believe with adorable visuals it could be a sweet motivator for creativity in many areas!
Ronnie Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 You really need to learn how to construct sentences properly. Also please don't put words in my mouth. Of course I would rather have a better looking, HD Zelda, but that's the bare minimum for the next Zelda game, it won't fix any of the issues that have hampered TP, SS, PH and ST. It's like the motion controls in Skyward Sword, yes they're aspect of the game to look at, but there are far more important things.
Beverage Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Also please don't put words in my mouth. Of course I would rather have a better looking, HD Zelda!!!!!! Words which be false to your heart shan't be forced into your mouth, however, truthful words that lay deep in your heart will be exposed like the Triforce shining so brightly in Ganons dark realm when I rip your tongue out. : peace: Predictable.
Ronnie Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 Oh wow, yes please to this gorgeous art style (fan vid): Must have been a hell of a lot of work put into that!
Grazza Posted January 30, 2012 Posted January 30, 2012 That's amazing for a fan video, but the more I think about it, the more I think Nintendo will have to produce something spectacular if they are to be justified in not using the style of the E3 2011 demo.
EEVILMURRAY Posted January 31, 2012 Posted January 31, 2012 Words which be false to your heart shan't be forced into your mouth, however, truthful words that lay deep in your heart will be exposed like the Triforce shining so brightly in Ganons dark realm when I rip your tongue out. : peace: Predictable. I think what @Ronnie was meaning with the word forcing may have related to this: "sexy visual can help to make things more engaging, compelling, emotional" which is complete bullshit. Just because a game looks better may make it more appealing sure, but more compelling? Emotional? Fuck no.
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