The fine line between Constructive Criticism and Trolling...

[Fierce_LiNk]

I honestly dont think anyone bothers to register here just to come in and hate on Nintendo. Its just a defining characteristic of the company. They spark discussion, celebration and controversy like no other. Im not even sure if this is on topic so ill end it there.

 

You're right in that sense. Nintendo are a company than can both amaze and cause you a huge headache.

 

I think I should shut up, too. Haha.

[darkjak]

Like I've stated time and time again: there's nothing wrong with discussions and sharing your mind with others. That's the whole point of a forum.

 

Problem is that people are trying to deny that there is such a thing as core and casual, or that Nintendo have done anything wrong EVER.

 

People whom have oppinions have to be able to explain why they have these oppinions. That's a part of any debate. I also think that mods shouldn't shut down threads for there being too many people with a certain oppinion. If it's off topic, then that's OK, and if people are doing nothing else than performing personal comments agains each others.

[Jamba]

Some people need to get a better idea of when someone is stating their opinion and stating fact.

 

I frequently get an earful because I criticise games from certain members of the community but that's just the way I am sometimes. Very few times do people actually post back in a way that suggests that they have a counter arguement or a contradicting opinion, instead they feel the need to make things personal very quickly.

 

They often think that I'm stating fact when actually I am just illustrating the route of logic that brings me to having the opinion that I do.

 

It's unnecessary and all it does it make me want to post less because some people can't have a civilised discussion.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Problem is that people are trying to deny that there is such a thing as core and casual, or that Nintendo have done anything wrong EVER.

 

As a flip-side we have lots of people who think that Nintendo never does anything right.

 

Problem is that people are trying to deny that there is such a thing as core and casual

 

I loathe that people use core / casual bullshit to justify superiority of their tastes, and to feel special. This need goes so far as that people re-invent term to suit their needs, logic to be damned. "I'm playing mature hardcore games". Try to read that aloud. Can't you people grasp how stupid that sounds? Seriously. So far gamers here go, I'm easily most "hardcore" gamer in these forums, but goddamn if I hate the term and how cheaply it is thrown around with burning passion.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Jamba]

I loathe that people use core / casual bullshit to justify superiority of their tastes, and to feel special. "I'm playing mature hardcore games". Try to read that aloud. Can't you people grasp how stupid that sounds? Seriously. So far gamers here go, I'm easily most "hardcore" gamer in these forums, but goddamn if I hate the term and how cheaply it is thrown around with burning passion.

 

And already you've made it personal. Why can't you just leave it alone? Hardcore, casual, entry level, non-gamer are all terms used (yes by publishers and retailers) to describe the audience a game is marketted at.

 

Fair enough that you don't think that games should let themselves fall easily into those pigeon holes but getting angry at people for using them for ease of expression is seems quite snobbish.

 

The fact that people use the terms so frequently should show you that they have some use.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Fair enough that you don't think that games should let themselves fall easily into those pigeon holes but getting angry at people for using them for ease of expression is seems quite snobbish.

 

The problem here is that hardcore term is used here as some kind of badge and standard of being better gamer. Of course it starts to annoy.

[Jamba]

I haven't seen it that much. If anything, i see it used by people who like games with a challenge. That's nothing to get annoyed about. If anything, getting annoyed about it jmakes it seem like you have a bit of an inferiority complex, especially when you state to be so goddamn hardcore yourself.

 

You really shouldn't care what other people are like on here. You're not going to be able to change it.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

I haven't seen it that much. If anything, i see it used by people who like games with a challenge.

 

I see it used to define your generic shooter, sandbox, and other "mature" games (which, frankly, are most immature games around). These are not challenging at all. In fact, I would say that majority of games that people here think as hardcore are casual. They are marketed towards mass market, easy, and there is lots compromises about design to please typical player. People here call Halo 3 as hardcore game, although isn't obscure, uncompromising, daring, or challenging by any standards. It is basically lunch at McDonalds (which arguably is really hardcore experience). As opposite is this:

 

 

Europe Universalis 3. 100 000 sold, grand strategy. Ugly as sin. Manual over 200 pages. If we want to use term, this would be hardcore. Not shooter that has sold 9 million copies. That is why term is practically useless, and I see it as something that mocks readers intelligence.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Pookiablo]

I think there's some structural problems with this community. When I started lurking in C-E days there were a lot of more active members actually interested in Nintendo and there always seem to be new people. Then people here either left or changed their tastes and there's few of us left.

 

I believe this is a by-product of the community tools the other consoles provide that pushed people into feeling more part of them than here, it was evident when we saw members that got introduced here, becoming a community within this one (Other Consoles), falling ever more distant from the original.

 

I don't know how to link this comment to the topic :P but I wanted to say it, I guess we need to get some fresh blood to this forum and maybe some of the less constructive "fallen members" reached the time to leave the nest.

 

I agree with all of this and I'd even go as far as to say get rid of the General Chat part of the forum, there's people on there who NEVER post in the Wii Discussion section and prefer to opt for the bland "How was your day" thread day in, day out. There's very few people who come into the Console Talk side of things and therefore only a select minority, which would appear to be the most passionate of folk, is left to discuss what n-europe is actually about. The divide between these groups of people (the north of the boards and the south) seems to sometimes be almost as profound as the one between North and South Korea!

 

Of course such an idea would never be implemented.

 

Anyways, all the folk who feel the need to curb free speech by suggesting that we start to restrict negative discussion towards Nintendo can go take a hike. If I'm unhappy with the way Nintendo is doing things, then I as a consumer have a right to share my views on it. I'm all for a debate - coming back to what I said earlier, most of the shite found in General Chit Chat (which I do often add to I admit) does nothing to spark a decent debate and goes entirely against what a forum is traditionally designed to do: discuss things!

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Anyways, all the folk who feel the need to curb free speech by suggesting that we start to restrict negative discussion towards Nintendo can go take a hike.

 

Or perhaps you should take hike? I don't really find it very nice that someone throws shit towards me always when I want to talk with my pals, and calls it constructive criticism. Sure you have right to be unhappy customer, but it doesn't allow you to terrorize and derail every thread. It is already impossible to have thread longer than three pages without usual suspects coming to bitch. We have tolerated this for two years, but seriously there is limit for everything. If you don't play nice, nobody requires us play nice either.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Tellyn]

I still think you're taking what Flinky said in the wrong way, he's not suggesting we implement a virtual version of the Third Reich. Free speech is welcomed, but a line needs to be drawn when decent discussion is completely dominated by tag team flame wars with Teppo and MCJ fighting off everyone else.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

...tag team flame wars with Teppo and MCJ fighting off everyone else.

 

So the idea is getting rid of me and MCJ because we are responsible for all flamewars? It's great to see I'm turned into a scapegoat, although I have been away for very long time.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Pookiablo]

I don't "throw shit", I just share what I think about my products and the company that makes them. If you take that personally then perhaps you should learn to not get so frustrated over a video game company. People are allowed to think differently to how you do. My priorities in life don't include being a messiah to Nintendo and telling all of n-europe what a stuck-up cunt I am. I'm here to discuss, not waste my time having you take little pot-shots at everyone who doesn't think your console is as great as you do. Learn to discuss without escalating the discussion to stupid heights friend, it'll serve you well in future.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

People are allowed to think differently to how you do.

 

Funny how that doesn't work two ways.

[Tellyn]

So the idea is getting rid of me and MCJ because we are responsible for all flamewars? It's great to see I'm turned into a scapegoat, although I have been away for very long time.

 

I'm not laying blame on you entirely, because there were people arguing on both "sides", even a fricking mod got involved. However, you are letting things escalate in those types of threads by flaming the trolls.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

However, you are letting things escalate in those types of threads by flaming the trolls.

 

Why should tolerate something that is wrong? Someone needed to stand up against constant bullshit. Someone needs to do it because it was clear that staff or moderation wasn't up to the task. But, fine, I'm leaving, so you can pretend it makes things better.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Tellyn]

Why should tolerate something that is wrong? Someone need to stand up for constant bullshit. After all, it was clear that staff or moderation wasn't up to it. But, fine, I'm leaving.

 

Staff are different to moderators, we have no forum powers and can't really interfere.

[Jonnas]

Pookiablo, I don't think anyone wants to restrict one of the sides. Only those who bring nothing to the discussion (read: trolls).

 

Teppo, the people who fling shit are trolls. If they say anything you found remotely offensive, keep your cool. Politely keep the conversation, or ignore them if you think they aren't adding anything useful.

Responding in an angry tone just brings trouble, and can easily make you look like a fool (even if you have a completely valid point)

[Pookiablo]

Pookiablo, I don't think anyone wants to restrict one of the sides. Only those who bring nothing to the discussion (read: trolls).

 

Teppo, the people who fling shit are trolls. If they say anything you found remotely offensive, keep your cool. Politely keep the conversation, or ignore them if you think they aren't adding anything useful.

Responding in an angry tone just brings trouble, and can easily make you look like a fool (even if you have a completely valid point)

 

You're right, "restrict" is far too strong a term. I'm all for positive discussion and I do think there's many positive things we can indeed talk about! I just think having a go about people's "negativity" is ridiculous, people need opinions if they're to discuss things!

 

But yes, I agree with you, folk like Teppo need ignoring, and up and until now he had been ignored by me as it was. I mean what an asscake. Anyways, I've said enough, back to the discussion on Wii!

 

Any chance we can close this thread now?

[Goron_3]

Lol I saw this thread and i wondered why we hadn't seen it sooner, haha.

 

These are forums and everyone will have different opinions. I, for one, think the Wii is a cool console with some serious potential yet to be realise, but for the most part I'd rather play my 360 (Fable 2, Dead Space, halo, Resi, SFIV etc etc), because so far, other than Mario Galaxy the Wii hasn't had any true BIG games that just force me to buy them (and in terms of 3rd party games probably never will consdering they are putting most of their effort into 360/PS3).

 

NOW. what i hate is when people read comments and basically tell me that the games I like are crap because all they are are the same games but with flashier graphics or are all FPS's. I mean seriously some of the dumb comments people come up with on here are just so irritating (the same coming for a few anti-Wii members too). Infact one of the reasons I've stopped posting as much is because i find the debating rather tiresome because the only people that seem capable of decent posts sometimes are Fierce and TellyN. Oh, and hellfire, but he used to say some seriously stupid crap too.

[Shino]

I agree with all of this and I'd even go as far as to say get rid of the General Chat part of the forum, there's people on there who NEVER post in the Wii Discussion section and prefer to opt for the bland "How was your day" thread day in, day out. There's very few people who come into the Console Talk side of things and therefore only a select minority, which would appear to be the most passionate of folk, is left to discuss what n-europe is actually about. The divide between these groups of people (the north of the boards and the south) seems to sometimes be almost as profound as the one between North and South Korea!

 

Of course such an idea would never be implemented.

 

Anyways, all the folk who feel the need to curb free speech by suggesting that we start to restrict negative discussion towards Nintendo can go take a hike. If I'm unhappy with the way Nintendo is doing things, then I as a consumer have a right to share my views on it. I'm all for a debate - coming back to what I said earlier, most of the shite found in General Chit Chat (which I do often add to I admit) does nothing to spark a decent debate and goes entirely against what a forum is traditionally designed to do: discuss things!

 

I didn't even want to touch that, but I've mentioned it too before, I don't even know how some of those people got here. I mean, its normal for people to talk and share about different stuff in a community they feel part of, and some of them do come here occasionally but with many, it even amazes me how they found this place, let alone why joined it.

 

In the largest Portuguese forum, members have to qualify themselves to access such "leisure" areas, maybe we could implement a system similar to that in which members would be required to spend a couple of months discussing in the console boards.

[spirited away]

 

NOW. what i hate is when people read comments and basically tell me that the games I like are crap because all they are are the same games but with flashier graphics or are all FPS's. I mean seriously some of the dumb comments people come up with on here are just so irritating (the same coming for a few anti-Wii members too). Infact one of the reasons I've stopped posting as much is because i find the debating rather tiresome because the only people that seem capable of decent posts sometimes are Fierce and TellyN. Oh, and hellfire, but he used to say some seriously stupid crap too.

 

Agree totally with this post. I used to post quite frequently, but just got bored of the same discussions in every single thread - so I mostly observe now or post in the other consoles board, where I think there's a freindlier vibe and more positive discussion.

[Patch]

You're right, "restrict" is far too strong a term. I'm all for positive discussion and I do think there's many positive things we can indeed talk about! I just think having a go about people's "negativity" is ridiculous, people need opinions if they're to discuss things!

 

I think you would agree that there is a limit to how much negativity can be tolerated though? If every thread had a negative title, then something would need to be done, right? Obviously, that's at the extreme end of the scale; the actual tolerance limit is much less severe and subjective for each individual.

 

Some people probably feel that that limit has already been reached. That the negative outweights the positive. That's their call and they're entitled to it.

 

Man, I hate posting serious posts like this. I promise I won't do it again.

[Emasher]

The problem isn't that people are being negative. Its the post that are like:

 

"The Wii Sucks, there are no good games on it, you should all go buy a 360 and sell your Wiis!"

 

That are a problem. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit.

 

But something like that could easily be re-worded to:

 

"I haven't played my Wii in a while, I can't find too many games on it that interest me anymore."

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

The problem isn't that people are being negative. Its the post that are like:

 

"The Wii Sucks, there are no good games on it, you should all go buy a 360 and sell your Wiis!"

 

That are a problem. Obviously I'm exaggerating a bit.

 

But something like that could easily be re-worded to:

 

"I haven't played my Wii in a while, I can't find too many games on it that interest me anymore."

 

But why would such an ignorant statement have such capabilities as to derail an entire thread? All you have to do is ignore if such a comment annoys you.