Has Wii lost the hardcore gamer?

[dazzybee]

To answer the original question, to be fair the Wii hasn't exactly lost the hardcore gamer. Yes, some have sold their Wii console and moved onto the 360 or PS3 consoles exclusively, others still have the consoles just gathering dust in the corner somewhere while the other consoles get more attention.

 

Other gamers, like myself who is classed as Core own both a Wii and 360 and/or PS3. This is to get the best of both worlds as it were. There is nothing like being able to buy say Animal Crossing and Fallout 3 for both consoles while others can only buy one or the other as they have one console and miss out on the other title. There are great games out for the Wii at the moment, ok so titles like Wii-music may not appeal to all same goes for the party-style games, but there are people out there who do like these titles thus buying them and increasing Wii sales. These titles like Wii music, Wii Sports and Wii-fit are innovative and great titles to play. I for one play Wii sports as a break from the realism of games like GoW and Fallout 3.

 

3rd parties don't release AAA titles on the Wii because of the sales of these party style games i believe. They released titles like Hitman on the GC to a poor reception, so these sort of games don't get released on the Wii because they believe that these titles will not sell well at all, thus causing a loss to them. Ubisoft are one for not releasing top titles on the Wii, after all it is this company who release a port of Two Thrones with new controls, call it a different name and expect people to think it is a new game. If gamers bought AAA 3rd party games on the Wii that are already out now, this might make these developers think twice before releasing say a new "party" or "mini-game" style title. We may see titles like Fallout 3 come out for Wii.

 

Even Ninty can't release non-ports to the Wii. Twilight Princess was made for the GC, so it had GC style graphics and GC style everything to it. It was ported over with new controls and a 16:9 aspect ratio screen display etc. And what are they doing now, re-releasing more GC games with Wii controls and probably going to sell them for high prices. I don't think most gamers will buy these titles, unless they don't already own them on the GC already. Or if they did own them, may buy them again for the experience or something like that.

 

Ninty have a great console out there, but the control style is so simple that even an OAP can pick it up and play. That is roughly what Shigsy and Ninty said themselves i believe. This generation is mainly for the casual gamers or for people who don't do gaming as it were and some of it is for the core/hardcore gamer to keep them "with it" as it were.

 

Yes, the Wii has a lot of party games out there., but it also has great titles like Mario Kart, Brawl, Wario Land, Galaxy, Sonic, Red Steel already out there. And the ability to download and play more classics via Virtual Console

 

Sorry for the rant, but i for one am keeping the Wii because i know one day there will be titles for the Wii that even the core/hardcore gamer will want to play. Believe that.

 

On the whole, great post. Though I have to add the the Gamecube re-releases are being sold dirt cheap; and also, if they're not taking the place of ther releases, why is this a bad thing?

 

Also, your comments aboutt he control are completely off. Yes there are games that an OAP can and does play; but there is for all 3 consoles, an OAP could play Buzz, or Scene it. Most hardcore gamers needed a long time to get used to Pro Evo new control system; Wii Music needs time to master.

 

I think people are getting confused with intuitive control schemes with simplistic controls - shooting games, sports games, party games etc. A lot of the time the controls aren't simple, they're just so much more intuitive and thus easier to pick up.

[James McGeachie]

The title question is answered pretty easily even by looking at forum sections here. The Nintendo sections are growing increasingly lacking in activity and from the looks of it the other consoles section is on its way up.

[Shino]

That's because the forum is fractured, half of the new people don't even care about games.

[Jonnas]

That's because the forum is fractured, half of the new people don't even care about games.

 

Not to mention that discussion around 360+PS3+PSP+PC is obviously going to have an advantage over discussion over just the Wii.

[Hellfire]

The title question is answered pretty easily even by looking at forum sections here. The Nintendo sections are growing increasingly lacking in activity and from the looks of it the other consoles section is on its way up.

You just successfully demonstrated one of the biggest fallacies going around: that forums are any demonstration of hardcore gamers.

[S.C.G]

I don't really care anymore, for it's simple, if an outstanding exclusive retail game comes out on the Wii I will buy it, until then I shall enjoy the allready exceptional collection of truly excellent VC games that are available for it.

[killthenet]

I still don't really get what a hardcore gamer is.

[S.C.G]

The general view is it's someone who has played games for 75% - 99.9% of their lives and is only satisfied by the games that really contribute greatly to gaming as a whole and so will typically avoid shovelware and film cash-ins but will quite rightly play through the latest blockbuster title in a short space of time and then complain when there is nothing out to play for a period of days, weeks or months.

[darkjak]

I still don't really get what a hardcore gamer is.

 

A person whom is willing to to try a game that takes more than five seconds to learn how to play it. Someone whom actually enjoys a challenge and who likes to be rewarded by accomplishing stuff. A core gamer will play through the entire game, and preffers his games to take 20-60 hours to complete.

 

Basically it's like a comparasint of car drivers. A casual drives arround in VW Polo with an automatic gearbox and a navigation system. This person takes it to a workshop as soon as a repair can't be done with a sledgehammer. The casual driver only drives the car when necessary. The casual driver thinks that you should sell your car as soon as the depreciasion is too big.

A core driver drives arround in a Dodge Challenger, drives stick and doesent care much for modern aids, he likes to figure everything out for himself. The core driver will drive for the fun of it. The core driver will look after his car so that it never does depreciate.

 

 

@Hellfire

Casual gamers don't (we might have like THREE casual members maximum) sit in communities and talk about games because they're not interrested. And that's what's bugging me out, that companies emphasise so much on people whom just don't give a rats ass about what they play when the games cover is pretty.

[dazzybee]

A person whom is willing to to try a game that takes more than five seconds to learn how to play it. Someone whom actually enjoys a challenge and who likes to be rewarded by accomplishing stuff. A core gamer will play through the entire game, and preffers his games to take 20-60 hours to complete.

 

I hope to God you are taking the piss!!!

[Patch]

I still don't really get what a hardcore gamer is.

 

There are no hardcore gamers. We are all different shades of casual. :awesome:

[Hellfire]

A person whom is willing to to try a game that takes more than five seconds to learn how to play it. Someone whom actually enjoys a challenge and who likes to be rewarded by accomplishing stuff. A core gamer will play through the entire game, and preffers his games to take 20-60 hours to complete.

 

Oh Dear Lord. The 20-60 hours part alone...

 

@Hellfire

Casual gamers don't (we might have like THREE casual members maximum) sit in communities and talk about games because they're not interrested. And that's what's bugging me out, that companies emphasise so much on people whom just don't give a rats ass about what they play when the games cover is pretty.

Did I say that? *reads* No, I didn't say that. I said, the forums don't represent all or even most hardcore games, I didn't say it represents whatever a casual gamer is. Companies need to emphasize on making good games. Period.

 

If a company strives to make a good game for beginners, for people who don't know anything about games why is that a problem? The fact that Nintendo is one of the few that does that and started the initiative to do it, because, mostly since PS1 what you saw was loads of games that attracted idiots just because of boobs and guns, the earlier definition of casual, so it's not like games were always made for "connoisseurs".

Now that (few, but more than before) companies actually make games for newcomers with care and thought, I suppose it can be viewed kind of as good education, or a better starting point, or if you wish using blue ocean terminology, it ensures a bigger chance of people going upstream.

 

The elitism that surrounds all this hardcore gamer stuff is ridiculous and annoying, although I suppose it had to reach gaming, as it always reached other things in life, be them comics, movies or cars. If you ask me, and please don't, an hardcore gamer has an open mind to play all types of games.

[Dazkarieh]

I remember the days when hardcore used to be called nerds and no-lifers.

 

Nowadays, it seems an achievement.

[dazzybee]

Oh Dear Lord. The 20-60 hours part alone...

 

 

Did I say that? *reads* No, I didn't say that. I said, the forums don't represent all or even most hardcore games, I didn't say it represents whatever a casual gamer is. Companies need to emphasize on making good games. Period.

 

If a company strives to make a good game for beginners, for people who don't know anything about games why is that a problem? The fact that Nintendo is one of the few that does that and started the initiative to do it, because, mostly since PS1 what you saw was loads of games that attracted idiots just because of boobs and guns, the earlier definition of casual, so it's not like games were always made for "connoisseurs".

Now that (few, but more than before) companies actually make games for newcomers with care and thought, I suppose it can be viewed kind of as good education, or a better starting point, or if you wish using blue ocean terminology, it ensures a bigger chance of people going upstream.

 

The elitism that surrounds all this hardcore gamer stuff is ridiculous and annoying, although I suppose it had to reach gaming, as it always reached other things in life, be them comics, movies or cars. If you ask me, and please don't, an hardcore gamer has an open mind to play all types of games.

 

Yeah, it's completely fucking retarded. I bet I put more hours into Wii Music then 'hardcore" gamers do playing Mass Effect!! The reasoning is just stupid! I personally think the hollywood blockbuster games are exactly that, hollywood blockbusters!! Shallow, superficial bullshit. But that's just my opinion of course! It baffles me the snobbish attitude people have about being a core gamer! The whole thing baffles me

[Emerald Emblem]

As far as I'm concerned, a core gamer is someone who just enjoys playing video games whatever games they may be, of course they need to be able to enjoy more than 1 genre of game.

[Emasher]

I would say it depends on how seriously you take games, and how important they are to you compared to other things you do. And to a lesser extent, what games you play. Someone who only has ever played Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit and Wii Music, probably isn't a hardcore gamer no matter how seriously they take these games. But before you all flame me for that last comment, that's really part of what Emerald Emblem said, how the Core gamer has to be able to enjoy more than one genre. Someone who has only ever Played Halo 3 and CoD4 because their friends told them they were good games, I wouldn't consider a hardcore gamer either. They would be more of a Fadder. The Core gamer makes decisions for themselves about what they want to play, they know what's coming out and know what they're going to buy when it does. They also if possible probably would rather go to GAME/EB Games/GameStop/ect. or buy games online, than go to a big department store with only a limited selection of recent releases. Hardcore gamers tend to know more about gaming than casual gamers also. And perhaps the biggest one, Hardcore gamers tend to go for quality games, they read reviews, ect. to try and find the best games possible and not spend their money just because they saw an add that made them want to buy a game. Hardcore gamers don't care about how badass the game is, they just care how fun it is.

 

Note. These aren't requirements for being a hardcore games. Its more just, most hardcore gamers are like this, and I'm merely just trying to put together a general description. Because a Hardcore gamer isn't something we can simply define, its just, you can tell who a hardcore gamer is easily and who is a casual gamer, ect. But there isn't a set list of requirements for either.

[D_prOdigy]

I think a hardcore gamer is someone who refuses to spend a moment of their lives getting into debates about the type of person who will classify as a hardcore gamer.

[darkjak]

As far as I'm concerned, a core gamer is someone who just enjoys playing video games whatever games they may be, of course they need to be able to enjoy more than 1 genre of game.

I'll partially agree, and partially disagree on that. Core gamers can enjoy multiple types of games, that is true. Core gamers cannot enjoy any game though, just like a car nut cannot enjoy any car, or any art lover will enjoy any piece of art. We all have our preferences.

 

 

Oh Dear Lord. The 20-60 hours part alone...

Did I say that? *reads* No, I didn't say that. I said, the forums don't represent all or even most hardcore games, I didn't say it represents whatever a casual gamer is. Companies need to emphasize on making good games. Period.

That is correct. However, if you look att todays casual games, they are just plain shite, bar a very few select games.

 

If a company strives to make a good game for beginners, for people who don't know anything about games why is that a problem? The fact that Nintendo is one of the few that does that and started the initiative to do it, because, mostly since PS1 what you saw was loads of games that attracted idiots just because of boobs and guns, the earlier definition of casual, so it's not like games were always made for "connoisseurs".

Now that (few, but more than before) companies actually make games for newcomers with care and thought, I suppose it can be viewed kind of as good education, or a better starting point, or if you wish using blue ocean terminology, it ensures a bigger chance of people going upstream.

 

The elitism that surrounds all this hardcore gamer stuff is ridiculous and annoying, although I suppose it had to reach gaming, as it always reached other things in life, be them comics, movies or cars. If you ask me, and please don't, an hardcore gamer has an open mind to play all types of games.

 

 

Thing is that casual gamers rarelly ever move upstream. That is because they don't have interrest in games. Calling casual gamers "beginners" is therefor wrong, as someone whom considers himself a beginner usually strives to learn how to do the real stuff. The gaming industry does not se casual games as spring boards for players to learn more advanced games. Casual gamers are casual because they want to be casuals. They do se games as nerdy.

 

Yes. A core gamer has an open mind to play all types of games. Not meaning that he will enjoy them enough for purchase.

 

Yeah, it's completely fucking retarded. I bet I put more hours into Wii Music then 'hardcore" gamers do playing Mass Effect!! The reasoning is just stupid! I personally think the hollywood blockbuster games are exactly that, hollywood blockbusters!! Shallow, superficial bullshit. But that's just my opinion of course! It baffles me the snobbish attitude people have about being a core gamer! The whole thing baffles me

Well, I don't think that the so called Hollywood blockbuster games are shallow or superficial. Look at Bioshock, it's got a deeper story than most games, and it has great game mechanics, and it is entertaining. I'd preffer comparing casual games to Hollywood blockbusters, because THEY are shallow.

 

I would say it depends on how seriously you take games, and how important they are to you compared to other things you do. And to a lesser extent, what games you play. Someone who only has ever played Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit and Wii Music, probably isn't a hardcore gamer no matter how seriously they take these games. But before you all flame me for that last comment, that's really part of what Emerald Emblem said, how the Core gamer has to be able to enjoy more than one genre. Someone who has only ever Played Halo 3 and CoD4 because their friends told them they were good games, I wouldn't consider a hardcore gamer either. They would be more of a Fadder. The Core gamer makes decisions for themselves about what they want to play, they know what's coming out and know what they're going to buy when it does. They also if possible probably would rather go to GAME/EB Games/GameStop/ect. or buy games online, than go to a big department store with only a limited selection of recent releases. Hardcore gamers tend to know more about gaming than casual gamers also. And perhaps the biggest one, Hardcore gamers tend to go for quality games, they read reviews, ect. to try and find the best games possible and not spend their money just because they saw an add that made them want to buy a game. Hardcore gamers don't care about how badass the game is, they just care how fun it is.

 

Note. These aren't requirements for being a hardcore games. Its more just, most hardcore gamers are like this, and I'm merely just trying to put together a general description. Because a Hardcore gamer isn't something we can simply define, its just, you can tell who a hardcore gamer is easily and who is a casual gamer, ect. But there isn't a set list of requirements for either.

 

As far as I can see, I can agree with everything in this post.

[Emasher]

There are though, quite a few casual gamers who will move up to bridge titles like Mario Kart and Guitar Hero. Sometimes even Smash Bros. I have a good friend who's a casual gamer. She enjoys casual games, but her favorite games are all bridge titles. Though if she trys something like a Zelda game, she will after about 5 minutes give up on it and call it boring or a stupid game or something. I think one of the problems is Casual gamers just don't have the experience in games and don't have what we call "gamers intuition". This can stop them from enjoying a game because they have trouble figuring it out because, well, unlike us, they just don't care about the game and don't want to try and figure it out. They would rather play games that they can figure out in less than 5 minutes and have fun with every now and then. Thats why, the games that NEED to be made right now for the Wii aren't necessarily just plain Hardcore games, but games that start out as Bridge titles, but by the end are more like hardcore games.

[Marcamillian]

Part of me knows this thread isn't going to get anywhere, but I can't help being intrigued in other peoples oppinion on the matter.

 

The general view is it's someone who has played games for 75% - 99.9% of their lives and is only satisfied by the games that really contribute greatly to gaming as a whole and so will typically avoid shovelware and film cash-ins but will quite rightly play through the latest blockbuster title in a short space of time and then complain when there is nothing out to play for a period of days, weeks or months.

 

Just made me giggle... the first half of this is my view of a core gamer, though IMO it's the oppostie of what is generally regarded as core.

 

Oh and the car analogy mentioned by darkjak breaks down when you consider casuals play games for the same reason core do... entertainment.

 

A thought that just crossed my mind is that the tone of this thread is that core gamers have "moved on" to other consoles leaving nintendo behind, but could it be that nintendo have outgrown previous estabilshed concepts of game design and the "hardcore" are so scared of the unfamiliarity that they can't bring themselves to come with?

 

Much as been said about the Wii needing games that cater to everyone including the harcore, like needing "AAA" racers or FPS's with huge production values. But to be honest, the Wii probably has a larger range of software...its just that the other consoles narrower range consists of more that "the hardcore" recognise as games they are familiar with and have enjoyed in the past and they arn't prepared to waste their precious time on a new experience they *might* not enjoy.

 

[edit] Interesting point esmasher... could hardcore just be someone who chooses gaming as their favoured entertainment medium?

[RossK]

interesting topic , Nintendo might be doing more to appease the "casual" market but at the end of the day they are a business and now a hugely succsefful one.

where before in the days of the GC it really did struggle against its competitors I feel , but with the Wii its fine to own one , its not nerdy or anything like that.

 

I think as long as they keep putting out the AAA titles we will be ok , i know a speople have said we have seen neither head nor hair of any of these new marios,zelda,kid ixarus,pikmins .

But in time they will come and it will be brilliant no doubt.

 

If they can make money with more casual games its better in the long run it means they can allow more development time and take risks for the titles we really crave like another Mario! ,

 

And it may have been 8 months since the last huge supposed hardcore game Smash Bros Brawl , to be honest im still playing it , i havent bought any new games since its been fun enough to keep me going on and so much stuff to do and unlock , if we were snowed under with new AAA titles we wouldnt be able to appreciate the ones we have as much , i think a timely gap is good for us to truely enjoy the magic and effort put into titles like Smash Brawl.

[Jonnas]

Well, I don't think that the so called Hollywood blockbuster games are shallow or superficial. Look at Bioshock, it's got a deeper story than most games, and it has great game mechanics, and it is entertaining. I'd preffer comparing casual games to Hollywood blockbusters, because THEY are shallow.

 

Your whole argument stems from the assumption that casual=shallow=bad.

My sister is what one can call a casual gamer. She doesn't usually care about games, she only plays once in a while, and she even heavily criticizes my gaming purchases...until she plays some of those herself.

 

She pretty much loved EBA and Mario&Luigi for the DS. You know, two games that can easily be considered "core". She also enjoyed Trauma Center and Zelda: PH (and she had never bothered to try a Zelda game before). There's a casual gamer that breaks the mold. I'm betting she wouldn't bother to complete side-quests, but that's beside the point. She plays the games she likes.

 

And that goes for me too. I play whatever I like, even if they're "shallow" games, to be played in short spurts.

Like EBA, my favourite DS game. I rate it higher than Castlevania: PoR, which has a ton of things to do and unlock.

 

My point is, it's pointless to divide gamers just like that. They have different tastes, independently of their gaming habits.

[Emasher]

I think one of the major dividing lines is that Hardcore gamers can find good games for themselves, and Casuals will most likely end up being cheated out of their money by the likes of ubisoft unless a gamer helps them with their purchases. A casual gamer will see a game and thing Wow, that looks cool! or That looks fun! A hardcore gamer will look up reviews and such, a hardcore gamer can also usually tell what's going to be good and what isn't without playing it. For instance, A hardcore gamer will know some ubicrap animal simulation game that just rips of Nintendogs isn't worth a buy, but a casual gamer will go "Ooooo a pony game" and possibly buy it not knowing how bad it really is. They also might not know its bad once they play it because they haven't played enough good games. Perhaps this is also why a lot of casual gamers don't like gaming and think its just a shallow hobby that some teenagers do. They don't play the good games, so they don't know what gaming is really about. I've had arguments with a casual gamer where they said gaming was boring and when I asked what games they've played all they had played was a few cheap simulation games and the first few minutes of an RPG. Hardcore games can be compared to books, you can't just play/read them for a few minutes and know if you like it or not. You need to read a chapter or so, or play for a few hours before you really know if the game/book will be good or bad. Casual gamers just don't understand this.

 

...sorry I meant to make that a short post...

[K-project]

I think one of the major dividing lines is that Hardcore gamers can find good games for themselves, and Casuals will most likely end up being cheated out of their money by the likes of ubisoft unless a gamer helps them with their purchases. A casual gamer will see a game and thing Wow, that looks cool! or That looks fun! A hardcore gamer will look up reviews and such, a hardcore gamer can also usually tell what's going to be good and what isn't without playing it. For instance, A hardcore gamer will know some ubicrap animal simulation game that just rips of Nintendogs isn't worth a buy, but a casual gamer will go "Ooooo a pony game" and possibly buy it not knowing how bad it really is. They also might not know its bad once they play it because they haven't played enough good games. Perhaps this is also why a lot of casual gamers don't like gaming and think its just a shallow hobby that some teenagers do. They don't play the good games, so they don't know what gaming is really about. I've had arguments with a casual gamer where they said gaming was boring and when I asked what games they've played all they had played was a few cheap simulation games and the first few minutes of an RPG. Hardcore games can be compared to books, you can't just play/read them for a few minutes and know if you like it or not. You need to read a chapter or so, or play for a few hours before you really know if the game/book will be good or bad. Casual gamers just don't understand this.

 

...sorry I meant to make that a short post...

 

That's the best definition yet that I've read. It doesn't matter what console you have, you still find a casual and hardcore audience.

 

I work with a bloke who has a 360. Big, big gamer, but I was stunned to hear of his tip for spotting a good game. "The best way you can tell is checking the back of the box. You can see the graphics, and usually tell whether it's any good or not".

 

 

Really? A quick look at the back of the box? This might have been OK, but he then started telling me how I should avoid the new Prince of Persia game, because "there are big black outlines on the graphics". I said firstly, I can't get it on the Wii, and secondly, it just happens to look absolutely gorgeous actually. I had to tell him about cel-shading and Okami etc, but he wasn't interested in that. If a game doesn't look like Gears of War (ie. brown, grey and filled with death, war and gore), he didn't care for it. Is that a hardcore gamer? I would say not really, but by default he spends hours playing 360 shooters, and that seems to be the definition most go on these days. A hardcore gamer used to be someone who played lots of different types of games, but it seems if you spend all your life shooting things in Xbox 360 games you are "teh hardcorez".

 

I'm fed up of the fake debate around the Wii and it's status as a hardcore games machine. It's a load of crap. I'm sick of everyone who has a 360 offering their extremely boring and oft repeated opinions on why their Wii's are currently "gathering dust in a corner". There are loads of quality games on the Wii, with more to come. If you don't like it, bugger off back to your shooters. As it is, I don't consider myself hardcore at all. Or casual. I just like to play games, and there is plenty to keep me extremely happy on the Wii. Certainly nothing has enticed me on the other consoles one bit. Not one pang of jealousy has struck me in the 18 months of Wii ownership. And I'm no fanboy either. I just like the games I like, and the Wii has the games I like. I've currently got 20 excellent titles. That to me is a brilliant personal library at this stage in it's lifespan.

 

Basically, my point is, don't fall for the fake discussion about the Wii, and just play the games you like.

[Marcamillian]

One thing that stikes me about the elitism caused by the "hardcore" seeing themselves to be able to pick the good games is that there is a resistance to trying new things. The bias in favour of established ideas in games journalism (highlighted by their dismissal of WiiMusic) highlights the subjectivity and the fact that researching games by means of reviews can be a flawed system. You are relying on the fact that the reviewer has the same taste as you and limiting yourself to the games that they like.

 

I think a real problem with peoples precentions of "innovative" games on the Wii is that inevitably figuring out new mechanics can mean that the development looses time to put the polish and finishing touches on that we've become used to from games with more established play mechanics. I dont expect a new idea to be fully developed right off the bat. Though one thing that helps is the price range of games availible on the Wii and DS now... games actaully go down in price?! Plus, the nintendo channel DS demos are a welcome addition...Locks Quest has secured its place in my christmas schedule from it and im considering Soul Bubbles as well.