The Dark Knight Discussion (Spoilers)

[Paj!]

Robin is the worst possible character they could intoduce to the series. It'd be worse than having Ace, the Bat Dog as his new sidekick.

 

Seriously. Batgirl would be 10x better (based on Cassandra Cain Batgirl probably), and I still don't want her.

 

---

 

I quite like the idea of Depp as The Riddler, just cause I love when Riddler is portrayed as a dark character. However, on the other hand, I feel he's too famous to be in it. (If you get me)

 

Nolan likes using B-Popularity actors for the most part, and those that have a great deal of skill (Except Katie Holmes...).

 

---

 

I'm still sticking with my preference for a War Games-based story for the potential third, introducing Catwoman and Black Mask. Penguin and others like Ventrilioquist could be in it as minor characters, but possibly not at all.

 

Only because I don't see Riddler working well in Nolan's universe. He can't have the elaborate traps like in the comics, it'd look silly.

[gaggle64]

See, this is why I don't particularly like Nolan's universe. You can't go about eliminating integral parts of the existing canon because they seem silly in your view of it. It's a franchise about an insane billionaire playboy with a Batsuit and disturbed relationship with his butler. He's accepted that bit, refusing the rest, as well as the film's clearly desperate need for a 12A rating, avoiding direct contact with anything genuinely dark or gritty suggests to me that Nolan is considerably lacking in artistic testicular fortitude.

[Paj!]

See, this is why I don't particularly like Nolan's universe. You can't go about eliminating integral parts of the existing canon because they seem silly in your view of it. It's a franchise about an insane billionaire playboy with a Batsuit and disturbed relationship with his butler. He's accepted that bit, refusing the rest, as well as the film's clearly desperate need for a 12A rating, avoiding direct contact with anything genuinely dark or gritty suggests to me that Nolan is considerably lacking in artistic testicular fortitude.

 

Robin is of course a famous character who is almost as old as Batman, at around 70-something. However, I've never felt he was integral to Batman, the character. He was introduced as comic relief back in the day, and while I do like Tim Drake, a child/teen within one film being able to stand beside Batman is a ridiculous idea. He's not necessary in the films, I don't think he should be added because he's a main character in the Batman mythos.

 

Bruce would never take a young boy under his wing, nor would he accept Robin, were he independant (shown in The Dark Knight, his unnacceptance of other vigilantes).

 

If they were to have a "sidekick". They'd do better to have someone like Huntress. Batman disagrees with her methods greatly (using over-the-top force), but she can damn well handle herself (and her enemies), so she remains on the streets. She's an adult, though. If they introduced a Robin with that kinda attitude, he wouldn't be acceptable, he's a child/teenager.

 

What do you mean by your last statement? That it's not truly dark? Of course not, it's a film based on a comic that isn't actually a psychological thriller/horror. However, he's made it as dark as possible, within the limits of "the summer blockbuster".

 

---

 

I think to even introduce the idea of sidekicks, have Catwoman in the next one. She and Batman would have to work together against the Black Mask/mob/whatever the threat is, all the while Batman questioning whether he can trust her. (Inc. some plot where she wants to kill Black Mask, but Batman won't let her, etc)

 

I think that would work.

[EEVILMURRAY]

You're getting aroused when you mention Black Mask, aren't you?

[Slaggis]

Why does everyone keep going on about Catwoman? The writer of the films has stated that neither Catwoman or The Penguin would be in Batman 3.

 

"There are dozens if not hundreds of other characters that fit that bill. Everyone says it's got to be the Penguin or Catwoman [in the next film]... well I completely disagree."

 

Well ok, he doesn't rule them out, but he does basically say they most probably won't be in it.

[Paj!]

You're getting aroused when you mention Black Mask, aren't you?

 

Yes. He's the only "Ganster" villain I actually really like, from Batman's rogue's gallery. Penguin is a bit shit, really, and worked well enough in Batman Returns, with Burton's transformation of him. Ventriloquist is worse than Penguin.

 

Black Mask is actually a torturer, brutal, and insanely anarchic under his organised crime veneer. I clapped for 5 minutes when he (basically) tortured The Spoiler to death. He does the dirty work himself. because he relishes it.

 

[EEVILMURRAY]

Sounds too much like the Joker to me.

[chairdriver]

Black Mask is one of my favourite Batman Villains (although he's more a Catwoman villain since he tortured her sister, and she was the one to eventually kill him).

 

He's probably the most scarey, because he feels the most realistic. He tortures Spoiler (the daughter of the Cluemaster (a Riddler rip-off) and Robin's girlfriend) with a power drill, which could work well on-screen, well not on-screen on-screen because that would be too gorey, but having it in the movie would really cement him as a dangerous, scarey villain.

 

____________

 

I think the series can go on without Harley Quinn, since she's not really a large part at all (she appeared in the cartoon before she appeared in comics). I'd prefer to see Poison Ivy first.

[Paj!]

Sounds too much like the Joker to me.

 

He's not anything like Joker. Joker isn't a torturer...he's too impulsive and random. Black Mask tortures to send a message, to make people pay. Joker's only mention of enjoying his murders is when he cliams to know someone as they die by being stabbed.

 

Black Mask kidnapped Catwoman's sister and brother-in-law, keeping both in a dungeon (IIRC) of some sort, before torturing both, and eventually killing the brother-in-law, before forcing her sister to eat her own husband's remains.

 

And as Chair said, he tortured a teenage girl with various surgical tools and a power drill.

 

That's beyong quick joy-killing. That's extremely sick. He's taking care over his brutal actions...which is arguably worse than just blowing up a whole load of people, who die instantly.

 

---

 

I should stop writing essays about Black Mask, but yeah. Batman's villains are in general insane (except for a few like Penguin, Catwoman and arguably Bane), so one has to know what their insanity manifests itself as.

[ReZourceman]

God Jonyy Depps so fucking overrated!! I really dont wanty to see him as the Riddler, I hate when people say "OH Johnny Depp would be perfect"

 

HE IS NOT THE ONLY FUCKING ACTRO WHO CAN PLAY MULTIPLE ROLES

 

It seriously seriously does my pissing head in!

[Guest Maase]

ReZourceman, your arguments goes all wrong when you think about Two simple movies:

 

Pirates of the Carribbean (:P) and Sweeney Todd.

 

Done, i proved you wrong

[chairdriver]

They could just call in Halle Berry and Sharon Stone again.

 

 

(That joke doesn't even need a punchline)

[EEVILMURRAY]

Black Mask also looks like a black copy of the Red Skull.

[chairdriver]

Black Mask also looks like a black copy of the Red Skull.

 

Possibly, but most comic characters have a counterpart from another company who is practically the same character in a different situation.

 

 

I prefer Black Mask anyway, because Nazis are cliche.

[Kirbii]

Saw it today much better than the last one

and a better story

[Paj!]

Black Mask also looks like a black copy of the Red Skull.

 

Red Skull's a generic villain.

 

"Oh look, I have a red face. And some instant-death dust, than somehow, in the 70 years I've been trying, I've never used on Captain America. Oh, and I'm still a nazi, btw, even though there's no point in being one anymore."

 

The writers realised he was shit, so they gave him a cosmic cube (item of infinite power). IIRC, Captain American beats him with a sword.

 

He's crap.

 

Black Mask is the disturbing/horrific/brutal/realistic sex.

 

----

 

I just, out of curiosity, read the original draft of the script for Batman Returns. I have to say, the way they included Robin was very well executed, and did prove me wrong somewhat that a Robin (of some description) couldn't be included.

 

However, while still dark, Returns was still on the right side of silly, unlike Nolan's films.

[ReZourceman]

Saw it today much better than the last one

and a better story

 

I can completely understand why people prefer TDK, but I really can't see how TDK could be said to have a better story.

[Dan_Dare]

it has a much, much better story.

[ReZourceman]

it has a much, much better story.

 

Whats the story? Explain it.

[Shorty]

Just popped in to say: I was overjoyed when the Batmobile got destructed. Ugly hunk of scrap metal, good riddance to it.

It reminded me of the one in the Dark Knight Returns, more practical and tank-like than stylish. I liked it, for a first batmobile. I expected him to make another/mod it at some point, so its all good

[Dan_Dare]

Whats the story? Explain it.

 

Well Begins was an origin story. It was a good one, and well written but this is something else entirely: it's an epic tragedy, crime drama, thriller and action movie with better characters, better pacing and a better set up. Everything about it is better.

[ReZourceman]

Well Begins was an origin story. It was a good one, and well written but this is something else entirely: it's an epic tragedy, crime drama, thriller and action movie with better characters, better pacing and a better set up. Everything about it is better.

 

Dont get me wrong, I adored it, and I agree with most of these points, but I feel the story was better in Begins. TDK was more a series of events, albeit an amazing series of events, and blah.

 

We'll see how I feel after a second watch.

[Dan_Dare]

well parts of it were. yeah. But like The Joker says 'do I look like the kind of man who has a plan'? the chaos he causes is just that- a series of events unplanned. The real story is about Dent and Batman, though. And that's brilliantly done.

[ReZourceman]

well parts of it were. yeah. But like The Joker says 'do I look like the kind of man who has a plan'? the chaos he causes is just that- a series of events unplanned. The real story is about Dent and Batman, though. And that's brilliantly done.

 

I hear ya, and agree it is brilliantly done, but I do love and prefer how in Begins its all a clear story, and then turns out its all linked aswell.

[Oxigen_Waste]

I didn't say he wouldn't.

 

(OXY said "Dear lord, no, Batman has got to be the worst character in the whole Batman Universe and bringing him in would just ruin everything, thank god Nolan has a brain..." Assuming he meant Robin and not Batman, I was just disagreeing with his ridiculous statement)

 

(However he wouldn't.....but its regardless anyway seeing as Nolans said no already)

 

I think he would, he's a very silly character...

 

ReZourceman, your arguments goes all wrong when you think about Two simple movies:

 

Pirates of the Carribbean (:P) and Sweeney Todd.

 

Done, i proved you wrong

 

And all you did was list some of his more convencional roles.

 

I hear ya, and agree it is brilliantly done, but I do love and prefer how in Begins its all a clear story, and then turns out its all linked aswell.

 

Precisely, you preffer a straight tale, but a truly genious screenplay needs a splash of random and insane.

 

See, this is why I don't particularly like Nolan's universe. You can't go about eliminating integral parts of the existing canon because they seem silly in your view of it.

 

Yes, yes you can. That's what adapting things is all about... choosing the bits you like and eleminating the ones you don't like. That simple. Nolan just made the movies brilliant by being a selective bastard.