What was 'wrong' with Twilight Princess?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

To combat the "Link has no personality" argument, I refer you to Wind Waker. The amount of emotion and personality expressed through Link's eyes is comparable to Gromit, no need for voice acting when you've got that.

 

You know, for me, Link's eyes in WW didn't express all that to me...They were mostly hit and miss. But when Link was in the Earth Temple together with Medli, his shouts of (almost saying) "Come on!" expressed a large amount of personality - the voice fits. I could have pictured WW Link in a conversation to his sister or Tetra, and have no problem with it.

[Retro_Link]

The lack of a real enthusiastic story didn't help and I think I'm the only person in the world who really hated Midna. Other than that Hyrule didn't have a very Hyrule feel it was interesting but trying around it was a bit linear it was go in one direction or the other. The key places also felt really uncomfrotable, I loved travelling around the goron village and zora domains in OOT and MM but in TP it's just not a fun really.

I really didn't like Midna either, and I found her voice/soundbites annoying!

 

I also agree with you about some of the locations.

Zora's domain was done pretty well, but the Goron village was non-existant! Where was their hollowed out underground city to explore and interact with? The Goron village in OOT far exceded TP's efforts!

[Goron_3]

WW link had so much personality! God for a character who had NO lines he really expressed himself quite a lot lol.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I really didn't like Midna either, and I found her voice/soundbites annoying!

 

I also agree with you about some of the locations.

Zora's domain was done pretty well, but the Goron village was non-existant! Where was their hollowed out underground city to explore and interact with? The Goron village in OOT far exceded TP's efforts!

 

And also the accessibilty of Death Mountain was annoying, I'm sure you had to use a clawshot to actually get up somewhere. Zora's Domain was beautiful, so to were the Zoras:heart: ...But it was still a stale place to visit, really should have been a bigger sidequest concerning Prince Ralis and his plight to become King Zora.

 

Nintendo also missed opportunities in expanding the 3 new races they introduced. Snowpeak could have easily had a community of Yeti to interact with, same goes to the (I forget their name) bird race and certainly with the Twili at the Twilight Palace.

[Retro_Link]

WW link had so much personality! God for a character who had NO lines he really expressed himself quite a lot lol.

Umm you're forgetting his immortal WW lines of:

 

"Come On!" and "Meeoow!"

 

 

For those who haven't seen it, a cool Zelda Wiimote video:

 

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Well, TP had many characters with personalities, but compared to OoT and WW, they're in no way memorable. I barely remembered any of those names Hellfire listed. Also, TP had sidequests, but they didn't have charm.

 

Reading this thread through had made me realise a thing: Despite my initial dislike of the WW look and my happiness about the TP look, looking back on both games, I actually liked WW better. It simply had a lot more charm.

[Hellfire]

Well, I remember them, so I find them memorable :P

I'm not sure exactly what or how you expected the races to be detailed, it just seems like you always expect too much.

WW characters did have much more personality that was the biggest plus of the style to me, although TPs facial expressions were awesome, they're nothing like in WW. I love it that Toon Link in brawl has a taunt that's just him looking around :P

Also, who doesn't love Midna doesn't have a heart.

[darksnowman]

Link needs a voice and a personality. As it is with so many RPG's with a mute protagonist, Link has the personality of a traffic cone.

 

I dont get the argument that Link is supposed to be a 'link to the player'. Im not a pointy-eared Hylian with green tights but Link is so why cant they go ahead and expand on him a little

 

Seeing as Link is meant to be a link between the player and game and is meant to reflect you, then that means that if you think Link lacks personality, then you yourself lack personality. I think Link is a great hero... dashing, noble, selfless... but thats just how I see it eh. :P

 

Umm you're forgetting his immortal WW lines of:

"Come On!" and "Meeoow!"

 

Meow!

 

Twilight Princess has a ton of plus points. For every negative you pull out of it theres a shed load of positives. The cutscenes were great (probably the best in a Zelda so far) and the characters were brimming with personality. I still find Ordon village a bit hard to find my way around, which I find bizarre, but the people living there are as good as in Kokiri Forest or wherever.

[Jonnas]

The Zora prince. Also, you suck.

:P

 

Ah, I should've suspected when I couldn't remember the Zora prince's name...

 

Now perhaps the controversial part of my view. The series has to evolve past what it currently is. It has that common flaw of a Nintendo IP that it largely hasn't changed and just slowly refined. The wolf mechanic wasn't anywhere near as innovative as expected and just yet another use of duality in the series that has been a stable since Link to the Past.

 

While I do agree that the series need more innovation, I'd say we've been getting it in small parts, like in PH, or the inclusion of those original items in TP. Not to mention WW did sailing and introduced the "special" attacks.

 

The problem is, like you said, the old staples will always remain, while the innovative additions are rarely followed upon. They better realise this.

 

It needs to take on parts of other games in the genre, Okami, Folklore, God Of War all games that are either action rpg/adventure that all could offer something to the Zelda series. TP did in some ways start to move towards God Of War epic levels with the boss fights but I think we could see some of its combat system. We have been playing Zelda for years now, give us a more refined and complex combat system. Don't be scared of scaring off the casual they can have Phantom Hourglass. Folklore offers its own fair share of mechanics that could be incorporated in someway.

 

TP has already started to move in that direction, at least. It just needed more challenging enemies, IMO.

 

Another way it could be improved is moving closer to movies. TP did have some Lord of Rings overtures to it and they should play on this. Make it more epic, everything bigger, have Link fighting along side others (perhaps something like the big battle scenes in Viking for PS3 and 360) and also give Link a voice! Yep you heard right, the Zelda series needs to move on how it rolls out its story and I honestly feel that voice acting has to come. Link could be recreated into a hero with a voice up there to match Solid Snake (hell get David Hayter...ok that bit was a joke) I don't mean that Link should be like Solid Snake but it all helps to the characterisation and would help create the hero we crace rather than the blank slate we get in every game.

 

Now I don't think you to have voice acting for a game to be great. I mean look at Foreman, gamings greatest mute. Perhaps just voice acting for the rest of cast would be a compromise for those who can't handle Link talking.

 

Thats it for now...

 

1. I'm all for epic storylines and scenarios. Big battles wouldn't look out of place in a Zelda game, as long as it makes sense (and isn't there just for the sake of "epicness". Just look how Ganon in TP turned out).

 

2. I'm still wary of voice acting. It's the kind of thing I always thought was unnecessary, especially in a game like Zelda, where so many details of the world and characters can be left for your imagination. I mean, it's not like voice is necessary for comprehension of the story.

 

Not to mention Link should never have dialogue of his own. The last two times dialogue was given to Link, we got two atrocities ("Excuuuuuuuuse me, Princess, but I could eat an Octorok!").

Even among fans, some prefer Link to have a sociable personality, while others rather have him be a no-nonsense badass warrior.

(Ironically, Link is the character with most voiced lines in the games. 4 different variations of "Ahh!", at the very least! )

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Well, I remember them, so I find them memorable :P

I'm not sure exactly what or how you expected the races to be detailed, it just seems like you always expect too much.

WW characters did have much more personality that was the biggest plus of the style to me, although TPs facial expressions were awesome, they're nothing like in WW. I love it that Toon Link in brawl has a taunt that's just him looking around :P

Also, who doesn't love Midna doesn't have a heart.

 

How is asking for Nintendo to expand a little on the races they included asking too much? Can't just throw in a bigfoot or two in an abandoned mansion and expect no one to want to know a little bit more of where they came from or what happened. Just asking for a few sentences of storyline isn't asking too much.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Just went back to playing WW and no TP boss is more challenging than the forms of puppet Ganon you face...I urge you guys to back to playing WW again, then compare with TP and you'll realise just how wonderful WW is.

[Hellfire]

Puppet Ganon is challenging? oO

I always thought WW is wonderful and I also think TP is wonderful and I played them both recently :P

[Jonnas]

Puppet Ganon is challenging? oO

 

Puppet Ganon is the only challenging boss of WW

Most TP bosses are better, though, wether they're harder than Puppet Ganon or not.

[Retro_Link]

Please no-one start saying all over again that the 'Snake form' of Puppet Ganon was difficult, because the only way it's difficult is if your constantly using the wrong technique i.e. arrows and not bombs. It's easy!

[D_prOdigy]

Please no-one start saying all over again that the 'Snake form' of Puppet Ganon was difficult, because the only way it's difficult is if your constantly using the wrong technique i.e. arrows and not bombs. It's easy!

 

No... I didn't find that incarnation difficult at all...

[Chris the great]

i gotta say, tp is a gtreat game, but what i felt it lacked was side quests and mini games. alot of heart peices asked for exploration, which was good, but where's the finding the dog from oot, or the birdman contest from ww?

 

they made it seem more fun, even if they where easy.

 

and the magic armour side quest was poor, just collect money. yawn.

 

bug collecting was cool mind.

 

 

 

the main game was great, the bosses in particular (not counting the dull spider) seemed epic. arguably the best bosses in the serise.

 

 

its a shame people complain about the game, it is exactly what fans asked for.

more epona

more cinematic

darker

more dungens

more realistic

litteraly what we asked for after ww (which seems rememberd in a better light then it was recived).

[D_prOdigy]

It ALL comes down to hype and anticipation at the end of the day.

 

TP was the most anticipated ganme ever from day 1. Ineviatble it was, that when it came out, we noticed all the ridiculous perfections we wished for to be absent. Thus, we are having this discussion now.

 

In contrast, when WW was unveiled, it posed the question whether Nintendo had lost it. Which is why we remember its unexpected qualites.

[Jonnas]

It ALL comes down to hype and anticipation at the end of the day.

 

TP was the most anticipated ganme ever from day 1. Ineviatble it was, that when it came out, we noticed all the ridiculous perfections we wished for to be absent. Thus, we are having this discussion now.

 

In contrast, when WW was unveiled, it posed the question whether Nintendo had lost it. Which is why we remember its unexpected qualites.

 

And I still have to disagree with this point. I expected about the same thing from both games.

 

While the hype is a somewhat valid argument for the initial reaction to the game, it loses it's validity, over time.

 

 

@Chris the great: Goes to show that fans have no idea of what truly makes a game great. MM was many of those things you said (except dungeons and Epona), yet people still remember OoT as "the good one".

One more thing, TP had less dungeons than OoT, not more.

[Chris the great]

i know fans rearly know what makes a good game, i kinda forgot to put that in. oops.

 

as for oot having more dungens then tp, i count 9 in each ( counting the final boss too), im not counting the ice, bottom of the well or child spirit temple as they where the first half of bigger levels.

 

mm was, in my eyes at least, a mixed bag. yes, side quests where fantastic, but the big bosses lacked alot of character, and seem a little disserpointing.

 

that said, the skeleton trii mini boss was great

[Hellfire]

And I still have to disagree with this point. I expected about the same thing from both games.

 

While the hype is a somewhat valid argument for the initial reaction to the game, it loses it's validity, over time.

 

 

@Chris the great: Goes to show that fans have no idea of what truly makes a game great. MM was many of those things you said (except dungeons and Epona), yet people still remember OoT as "the good one".

One more thing, TP had less dungeons than OoT, not more.

 

I think hype has everything to do it, it was proven time and time again, that people have a weird perspective and change their opinion all the time. For example King advising people to go play WW again to see how it's awesome compared to TP. Now, if a game is awesome, it's immediatly awesome, it's not compared to this or that nor after 4 years with rosed tinted glasses.

If you're 4 years expecting the 2nd coming of Jesus and he doesn't come it will leave a bitter taste in your mouth and this is what happened with TP, no doubt about it, everyone asked for a thing that they received, now it seems that they don't like it and think the game was a wishlist.

 

What truly makes a great game? That's highly subjective, thing is, most of the criticism TP gets, is mostly what they've improved on, in my opinion of course. What it lacks in mini-games, it gained in the main quest, mainly because the game doesn't rely only on dungeons (snowpeak, escort mission, horseback miniboss, twilight sections, ect..)

[Jonnas]

i know fans rearly know what makes a good game, i kinda forgot to put that in. oops.

 

as for oot having more dungens then tp, i count 9 in each ( counting the final boss too), im not counting the ice, bottom of the well or child spirit temple as they where the first half of bigger levels.

 

mm was, in my eyes at least, a mixed bag. yes, side quests where fantastic, but the big bosses lacked alot of character, and seem a little disserpointing.

 

that said, the skeleton trii mini boss was great

 

Well, I never played MM (I really want to, though), but I do know that the game had a darker atmosphere, and had good cinematic sequences.

What I was trying to say is, many of the fans who asked for all those things you said, still prefer OoT over MM (It was just to help prove the point of "fans have no idea").

 

About the dungeons, I'm not counting those either. So, TP didn't have less (my mistake there), but it didn't have more. And considering the last castles in TP seemed half-done, while OoT also had the Ice Cave and Bottom of the Well...

But forget that. TP has pretty good dungeons as it stands. To ask for more in that aspect would be complaining a bit too much.

 

EDIT: @ Hellfire: While I still disagree with the hype thing (hype didn't make me dislike TP in any way), the point about the main quest is pretty spot-on.

[Chris the great]

i would agree with hellfire about hype. people seemed so sure it would be a 98% scoring game that the fact its worth closer to 93% (my opinion i guess) is seen as "terrible" what they wanted and what they got differed slightly, which was upsetting. that is the curse of success, and why people tend to enjoy a good game more when they stumble accross it by accident. no expectations = no disserpointment = undiluted opinion on the game.

[Invisible Painting]

Puppet Ganon is the only challenging boss of WW

Most TP bosses are better, though, wether they're harder than Puppet Ganon or not.

Puppet Ganon was easy, all of it's forms there were. My basic view of a final boss is if you can beat it first time, it's too easy. Even if you're quite experienced. I think you should really have to work on a final boss (but in a way it's challenging but not unfair hard), but WW and TP's bosses they made too easy, it didn't help the fact that in TP they gave you fairies in the boss. They really should stop doing that.

 

I personally thought that MM's bosses were good for those reasons, they were challenging and that fish was a bastard lol. WW's and TP's to a degree were predictable and as soon as you figured out how to bash them, it was just repeat 3 times, it changes it's strategy a bit, you bash him 3 more times and you're done. They got a bit samey and easy. TP's bosses were harder then WW's ones imo.

 

i would agree with hellfire about hype. people seemed so sure it would be a 98% scoring game that the fact its worth closer to 93% (my opinion i guess) is seen as "terrible" what they wanted and what they got differed slightly, which was upsetting. that is the curse of success, and why people tend to enjoy a good game more when they stumble accross it by accident. no expectations = no disserpointment = undiluted opinion on the game.

 

Exactly, people judge a game relative to their initial expectations of it. WW lived higher then the expectations a lot of people gave it. TP, even though a really good game, was slightly lower then most peoples expectations, so people don't think of it as good in retrospect. The points people are saying about WW (such as characters, level of adventure/exploration ect) are true, and maybe TP did lack them to a degree. But TP didn't have the triforce collection bit near the end of the game, or the sailing where you just leave the control pad while you go get a cup of coffee. And I think both games did have their flaws, they were just seperate ones. So depending on what elements of Zelda you like will probably determine which game in the end you see as better.

[Zero]

I personally thought that MM's bosses were good for those reasons, they were challenging and that fish was a bastard lol.

 

Exactly, people judge a game relative to their initial expectations of it. WW lived higher then the expectations a lot of people gave it. TP, even though a really good game, was slightly lower then most peoples expectations, so people don't think of it as good in retrospect. The points people are saying about WW (such as characters, level of adventure/exploration ect) are true, and maybe TP did lack them to a degree. But TP didn't have the triforce collection bit near the end of the game, or the sailing where you just leave the control pad while you go get a cup of coffee. And I think both games did have their flaws, they were just seperate ones. So depending on what elements of Zelda you like will probably determine which game in the end you see as better.

 

That fish was a pain in the ass. I beat it on my second time but I don't even know how.

 

I believe what your saying about people's expectations. Expect too much from it and its bound to fail.

 

My only gripe with TP was the story. I liked how they added the Twilight Realm but I characters like Ganon felt forced into the story. I think it would have been much better had Ganon not actually been in the game and they had expanded on a Zant as a new bad guy like Vaati. The triforce as well had no real purpose in the game so they could have easily left it out. It felt forced as well.

 

I also like the Triforce hunt at the end of the game (i'm probably the only one :p)

[...]

Hardest boss in Majora's Mask, in my opinion, is the very first one, in the Deku Temple! Shit, I must be the only person in the world who finds that damn boss difficult, but I never got to grips with him. He's very annoying and the most difficult one for me.

 

The fish in the Zora Temple is easy as pie.