The Conduit

[Tellyn]

I'm dumbfounded that Stuwii hasn't actually been banned yet.

 

Was he the one who kept making new threads to argue with his friend in general? He should have been banned last year.

[mariosmentor]

It's really nice to see a developer trying to make something of the Wii.

 

A small developer(?) has been able to do this much, imagine if one of the bigger companies followed suit and pushed the Wii?

 

Maybe then we'd stop getting comments like Resi 5 is not fit for the Wii, Wii owners would much prefer a game like UC.

 

It would really be nice if developers would change their attitude to the Wii like these guys or Nintendo is going to lose alot of it's fanbase and turn into something as bog standard and common as a family board game.

[Jamba]

Maybe then we'd stop getting comments like Resi 5 is not fit for the Wii, Wii owners would much prefer a game like UC.

 

Stop being childish, the Wii is underpowered compared to the other 2 consoles and RE5 is meant to be a piece of graphical excellence. Of course its not/shouldn't be on Wii.

 

Devs and Publishers aren't pushing the graphics because they dont need to. It's been tried and tested that they can make money without having to do that so why should they change? I'm getting tired of making this arguement.

 

And people are pushing the graphics, try reading around the forum a little:

http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14030

http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10794

[...]

But the difference between something like RE5 and REUC is much more than just the graphics, I think that's what mariosmentor meant. UC could have graphics 100x better than GTA IV and it would still not appeal to me.

[Jamba]

He said, imagine what bigger companies could do if they pushed the Wii. Surely that suggests he's talking about graphics?

 

And yes... UC has much more wrong than the graphics (but i shouldnt really judge until i play it :S)

[mariosmentor]

Stop being childish, the Wii is underpowered compared to the other 2 consoles and RE5 is meant to be a piece of graphical excellence. Of course its not/shouldn't be on Wii.

 

Devs and Publishers aren't pushing the graphics because they dont need to. It's been tried and tested that they can make money without having to do that so why should they change? I'm getting tired of making this arguement.

 

It's not being childish to ask for a little bit more quality and depth from developers rather than simple, hour long jaunts to line their pockets.

It's not graphical elements of Resi 5 I was referencing to. It is the depth it entails that developers are refusing to put into Wii games.

 

This engine contains graphical elements that are impressive compared to most large studio affairs on the Wii. And to them graphics appear to be necessary ingredient for any serious game they consider.

 

To want a higher standard of games from lazy companies doesn't seem childish to me, and infact you appear to be childish by feeling the need to insult me for displaying my opinions on something you disagree about.

 

To state for the record, I am not saying Resi 5 should be on the Wii, off course it can't handle it. But Capcom have said that Wii owners DON'T WANT Resi 5 or games like it which is a downright lie, and that's what I'm pissed about.

 

And yes I know about No More Heroes and even own it and it's an excellent game. One in a very limited few.

 

And if you had read the forums you would see that I had posted a comment on the Alone in the Dark thread saying that I was looking forward to it before your comment.

[Jamba]

To want a higher standard of games from lazy companies doesn't seem childish to me, and infact you appear to be childish by feeling the need to insult me for displaying my opinions on something you disagree about.

 

Yes it is childish. You seem to think that devs will listen to what you want but they dont give a rats ass. It's about the money and right now making games with mass appeal is far more profitable on Wii. Also, devs will want their masterpiece games to be perfect in all aspects and right now I would see them losing scores and appreciation from the shallow market because of what it would lack. If a title is on Wii then it will lack graphics, if it's on PS360 then it will almost definitely lack motion controls. Now which one do you think that most people/reviewers are going to care about? The devs are making the right choice in my eyes, especially when it comes to conventional games.

 

 

To state for the record, I am not saying Resi 5 should be on the Wii, off course it can't handle it. But Capcom have said that Wii owners DON'T WANT Resi 5 or games like it which is a downright lie, and that's what I'm pissed about.

 

Hadn't heard this before but there's a chance that they might be right. Maybe they figure that people who own a Wii and are into their games which are aimed at the "hardcore" audience will own a 360 or a PS3 as well. I would suggest that they are right, especially as it will be a mature rated game.

[mariosmentor]

Yes it is childish. You seem to think that devs will listen to what you want but they dont give a rats ass. It's about the money and right now making games with mass appeal is far more profitable on Wii.

 

Whenever in my post did I say they would listen to me? I said it's not childish to want and said "ask" but not meaning to literary ask them, but somewhere down the line you translated that completely wrong.

 

You obviously feel very strongly on this and if you're going to pull arguments right out of your ass then their really is no point continuing. Congrats you win.

[pedrocasilva]

And people are pushing the graphics, try reading around the forum a little:

http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14030

http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10794

Alone in the Dark Wii a system pusher? *laughs maniacally*

 

And No More Heroes is certainly a good game and all, is the direction most third party's should be going when approaching the system regarding gameplay and all... but don't compare their engine and know-how to what a higher budget title would be; and what a higher budget title could pull.

Devs and Publishers aren't pushing the graphics because they dont need to. It's been tried and tested that they can make money without having to do that so why should they change? I'm getting tired of making this arguement.

Yeah, because most third party's certainly maxed the architecture on GC, most of them (don't) even know what a TEV pipeline is.

 

Also, the less powerful a system is, the most the graphics have to be pushed, I mean... look at PS2, it's been weak for years, and that's certainly why the numbered FF's and other main series games came out there and their teams were years pushing and achieving what would be easy on any other system on the market... what's the harm? hence, it was needed for the platform, just like the Wii needs it right now.

 

Not half-assed-ness from developers, tbh.

[Jamba]

Whenever in my post did I say they would listen to me? I said it's not childish to want and said "ask" but not meaning to literary ask them, but somewhere down the line you translated that completely wrong.

 

You obviously feel very strongly on this and if you're going to pull arguments right out of your ass then their really is no point continuing. Congrats you win.

 

OK, maybe you are not so naeive as to think that publishers will do what you want but it's not too different from them doing what you think they should do. It's their business to make money and they will have reasons for doing so. I was suggesting some of those possible reasons from what I know about how the industry works not just merely making them up.

 

Glad to see that you resort to insults as well, shame that you have to use them to save face about the fact that you don't want to back up your arguement. You know, actually discuss things.

[Tellyn]

The Wii is underpowered graphically. Seriously, do you want Satoru Iwata to personally come round to your house and install the most powerful graphics card known to man in your Wii?

 

And yes I know about No More Heroes and even own it and it's an excellent game. One in a very limited few.

 

I see a lot of these comments and I'm beginning to wonder if you people actually buy any Wii games at all other than titles like Galaxy and Brawl. The Wii has loads of fantastic games which no one plays because they're too busy whining about graphics, online and the lack of a hard drive.

[mariosmentor]

Well you see I'm a good natured guy and don't like being personally attacked by egocentric intellectuals that just want to notify me on my retarded viewpoints. I can't argue with your absolute business sense and clear logic, I be only a small city boy wantin' a good game.

 

But yes back to the point, the idea that a business may change and even hoping it would change it's practice in light of an engine that can utilize the consoles potential is really that implausible, no even absurd to you? You can say somewhere inside that cold business shell of yours that you would like to see a meaningful, original game popped into your Wii, presuming you have one?

 

And still I never said they should do it. It's natural for a business to make money yes, just as it is natural for a consumer to desire a fine product.

It just so happens I am a consumer.

 

And to note I only dish it out where it's due. I never attack without provocation.

 

Tellyn I have 21 Wii games, and most are not anything spectacular or could have been vastly improved with a little effort..

[Jamba]

Alone in the Dark Wii a system pusher? *laughs maniacally*

 

And No More Heroes is certainly a good game and all, is the direction most third party's should be going when approaching the system regarding gameplay and all... but don't compare their engine and know-how to what a higher budget title would be; and what a higher budget title could pull.

 

Wasn't really trying to compare, I was just pointing out that some devs are doing stuff (do I even need to tell people to wait for e3) cos everyone seems to be running around with their hands in the air screaming for someone to just makes some more mainstream, high budget games.

 

Yeah, because most third party's certainly maxed the architecture on GC, most of them (don't) even know what a TEV pipeline is.

 

Also, the less powerful a system is, the most the graphics have to be pushed, I mean... look at PS2, it's been weak for years, and that's certainly why the numbered FF's and other main series games came out there and their teams were years pushing and achieving what would be easy on any other system on the market... what's the harm? hence, it was needed for the platform, just like the Wii needs it right now.

 

Not half-assed-ness from developers, tbh.

 

2 things, firstly you said yourself that most devs didnt know the GCN architecture but very few studios made more than 1 or 2 attempts on it. Most of them had already invested their time and money in figuring out the PS2 and had hedged their bets. As the Wii is a very similar system architecture, I'd think that the devs still aren't willing to learn the architecture properly. You mentioned the know-how to make good games? That know how just isn't there yet.

 

Secondly the Wii is no PS2. It was almost a guaranteed winner from the start and no platform had any defining features as such. This generation, people are buying the Wii for it's defining feature, the contols, so the devs are spending time on making a game that reflects that. Their effort goes into the thing that effects the games sales, which is making it a Wii experience, not a gaphical push. Most of them dont have the money/time to do this.

[Goron_3]

The Wii is underpowered graphically. Seriously, do you want Satoru Iwata to personally come round to your house and install the most powerful graphics card known to man in your Wii?

 

 

 

I see a lot of these comments and I'm beginning to wonder if you people actually buy any Wii games at all other than titles like Galaxy and Brawl. The Wii has loads of fantastic games which no one plays because they're too busy whining about graphics, online and the lack of a hard drive.

 

It's not that really. It's just the good wii games have better counterparts on other consoles. Luckily, what nintendo churns out and claim to be AAA titles are better than games on other consoles, but they've been getting a bit more...mainstream than usual (mario kart and its simplicity, Galaxy was the easiest mario game, apart from maybe the ds one, though it was still good).

 

The only core game i can think on the wii that really has a wow factor to it is MP3. We need MORE games like this!

[...]

I see a lot of these comments and I'm beginning to wonder if you people actually buy any Wii games at all other than titles like Galaxy and Brawl. The Wii has loads of fantastic games which no one plays because they're too busy whining about graphics, online and the lack of a hard drive.

 

I don't.

 

I currently have 8 Wii games:

Wii Sports

Super Paper Mario

Super Mario Galaxy

Zelda TP

Metroid Prime 3

The Godfather

Trauma Center 1

Zack and Wiki

 

 

And I have Tomb Raider Anniversary on order.

And besides these titles there is nothing else that appeals to me.

 

Titles I await, off the top of my head, are Disaster, Fatal Frame IV, Alone in the Dark, Okami and Sadness if it ever gets released.

[darksnowman]

The Wii has loads of fantastic games which no one plays because they're too busy whining about graphics, online and the lack of a hard drive.

 

Well now, I pretty much have all the Wii games I feel I need up to this point (about 12) and for me, the graphics are good, online is good... but hard drive, hmm... that will be a problem. I've not downloaded any VC games in a while cos I'm leaving room for Wiiware.

 

I don't think mariosmentor was trying to start a row about how powerful the Wii is or isn't. He's not the first person to have said they wish the Wii was getting something like Resi 5 and nor is he the first to remark that if these guys making Conduit can put this kind of effort in, then whats holding back bigger companies. Obviously the Wii couldn't actually match Resi 5 and whatever else on the other consoles, but whats wrong saying that devs should invest a similar amount of effort into the Wii?

 

Is it childish to wish developers would make better games? I wish they would, too.

[Jamba]

No no no... why does everyone seem to think that I don't want them to either? I'm just saying that they have plenty of reasons not to. Yes, well done to HV for doing this but it still doesn't change the fact the PS360 games get an HD budget and the Wii doesn't. It's an unfortunate reality that I don't like that much either but at the end of the day, this is how it is.

[Noku]

I keep on finding these discussions for and against the Wii, and I keep on sniggering at them. The way I see it, trying to constrain bias to a minimum, is this:

 

- The Wii is underpowered.

- Some developers actually listen to what their audience are saying (cue Okami Wii announcement)

- Devs and Prods can make (and have been making) money off of it with minimal effort (I'm looking at you, Carnival Games)

- Nonetheless, the argument that mature titles cannot fare well on the console is disproven by (the sales figures of) RE4, RE:UC, Mortal Kombat Wii (which apparently did quite well), MP3, and No More Heroes (which isn't doing all that bad, from what I gather), and most likely even Red Steel and CoD3

- Therefore, it seems illogical to me to think that companies have no incentives to venture into the development of mature titles, such as the above; eg, The Conduit, Alone in the Dark

- In conclusion, there is no reason why developers shouldn't maximise the Wii's capabilities

[...]

What I think is that every console only has about 10 to 20% of games worth really having. It's always been like this. Sure, PS2 has a gigantic games library, but how many of those are just crap? I'd say about 80%, maybe more.

 

It's true for all consoles. For each good quality game that comes out on any system, 4 or 5 crap ones come out as well. How those crappy games make any money is to any one's guess. Like those stupid horse riding games I see on the Wii's shelf in stores. But those games also exist for the other systems.

[pedrocasilva]

Wasn't really trying to compare, I was just pointing out that some devs are doing stuff (do I even need to tell people to wait for e3) cos everyone seems to be running around with their hands in the air screaming for someone to just makes some more mainstream, high budget games.

Point stands, why is Atari, who is doing like 20 platforms at a time for a game that doesn't look too great, get mentioned as trying?

 

What are they trying?

2 things, firstly you said yourself that most devs didnt know the GCN architecture but very few studios made more than 1 or 2 attempts on it. Most of them had already invested their time and money in figuring out the PS2 and had hedged their bets. As the Wii is a very similar system architecture, I'd think that the devs still aren't willing to learn the architecture properly. You mentioned the know-how to make good games? That know how just isn't there yet.

Hence they have to invest now, not only because PS2 leaded before and now it's Wii (who uses the GC architecture) but also because like PS2 was... Wii is not as powerful as some other consoles and thus... actually needs effort.

 

And know-how to make "good games" is one thing, technical know-how is another. That's where No More Heroes stands actually.

Secondly the Wii is no PS2. It was almost a guaranteed winner from the start and no platform had any defining features as such. This generation, people are buying the Wii for it's defining feature, the contols, so the devs are spending time on making a game that reflects that. Their effort goes into the thing that effects the games sales, which is making it a Wii experience, not a gaphical push. Most of them dont have the money/time to do this.

Is it? Then why is Smash Bros selling so much, for instance? truth to be told, Wii is fresh and a excuse to do something new... but not a excuse to do something secondary and half assed like the industry seems to want to believe, quite the contrary.

 

Not everything has to be done chasing the controller, I mean, look at DS was it chosen for loads of RPG's namely Dragon Quest 9 because of the touch screen?

 

I couldn't care less about the touch screen, just as most DS buyers right now would.

 

Wii requires less money than the competition so the excuse "we have no money" while they're wasting themselves silly on HD platforms is just ridiculous; they just don't want to.

[Jamba]

Atari: I think that the game looks pretty good from what I've seen. I was talking about people pushing the Wii graphically as that's what I thought was being discussed (turns out I was on the wrong track).

 

PS2/Wii Investment: People were well into heavy developing for the PS2 early on. Many, many devs haven't taken the Wii seriously until recently. There is a time delay to some extent I think.

 

Fresh Wii stuff: Totally agree but few devs have taken up the challenge. I have no idea why this is but I think for some reason, Nintendo seem to be one of the only companies willing to spend money on developing gameplay particularly. I think that the industry could learn a lesson there.

 

DS Feature: That's a "then and now" thing. People were buying the DS for those features originally but as it got popular, the mainstream games ended up being on it because of the massive userbase. I think that this will happen with the Wii too soon enough.

 

Wii Budgets: Couldn't agree more but what are you gonna do? I think that pubs have a set amount of money that they are prepared to spend on a high budget title. As the Wii won't need so much money to dev the graphics, then maybe they think that that money would somehow get wasted. Obviously can't see that designing a good GAME costs as much money as a game with good graphics, if not more.

[pedrocasilva]

Atari: I think that the game looks pretty good from what I've seen. I was talking about people pushing the Wii graphically as that's what I thought was being discussed (turns out I was on the wrong track).

You aren't, but Alone in the Dark pushes nothing.

PS2/Wii Investment: People were well into heavy developing for the PS2 early on. Many, many devs haven't taken the Wii seriously until recently. There is a time delay to some extent I think.

And is it too late to start when the platform has been leading for one year now and now that we're past the "it's a fad!" time?

 

If, a market shift was taking place, we'd feel rumblings of it, instead seeing only small independent third party's without publisher trying to step up. No offence to them of course.

Fresh Wii stuff: Totally agree but few devs have taken up the challenge. I have no idea why this is but I think for some reason, Nintendo seem to be one of the only companies willing to spend money on developing gameplay particularly. I think that the industry could learn a lesson there.

While Nintendo is doing fresh stuff with budget and effort, they're also doing Smash Bros Brawl (could work on any other console regarding controls) and core-gamer efforts like Metroid Prime 3, Zelda and Mario Galaxy; highly inovative? hmmm... I dunno, Nintendo sure knows how to keep their series fresh, but point is... at least they aren't doing half baked spin-off's while they're investing the "better deal" in other platform.

 

And, strangely third party's seem to think that's the way to go so they can complain afterwards. I'm actually surprised Namco isn't crying that Wii is casual because they didn't bought Soul Calibur Legends... but truth to be told, we hardcore wouldn't touch it with a stick.

DS Feature: That's a "then and now" thing. People were buying the DS for those features originally but as it got popular, the mainstream games ended up being on it because of the massive userbase. I think that this will happen with the Wii too soon enough.

It always was like that for us though, wasn't it? do you care about motion sensing, no matter how good it is? Did you ever did? sure it's the future and all, it's nice, I like it... but I also don't care about it.

 

And if it was then and now... what about Wii? about time they fricking started.

Wii Budgets: Couldn't agree more but what are you gonna do? I think that pubs have a set amount of money that they are prepared to spend on a high budget title. As the Wii won't need so much money to dev the graphics, then maybe they think that that money would somehow get wasted. Obviously can't see that designing a good GAME costs as much money as a game with good graphics, if not more.

What am I gonna do? keep buying quality titles and titles that I think have effort, that's all I can do, vote with my money.

 

Oh, and sending e-mails, going to forums and trying to put some pressure. I'm doing all I can already.

[Jamba]

It always was like that for us though, wasn't it? do you care about motion sensing, no matter how good it is? Did you ever did? sure it's the future and all, it's nice, I like it... but I also don't care about it.

 

I care about motion sensing and touch screen, not for the innovation itself but for the new types of gameplay and game taht they can bring. They have both had relatively mediocre success in that respect but they do just feel like a more user friendly direction to be moving in. I think that they are both here to stay.

 

And to the other stuff. I don't disagree with your feelings at all, you're perfectly right. Maybe the success of MK and Smashbros will help bring in more publishers.

[pedrocasilva]

I care about motion sensing and touch screen, not for the innovation itself but for the new types of gameplay and game taht they can bring. They have both had relatively mediocre success in that respect but they do just feel like a more user friendly direction to be moving in. I think that they are both here to stay.

I agree, truth to be told it's not like I don't care about them, what I don't care is if a game doesn't use them. I mean, I'm not gonna say that I can't go back to a regular controller, or that every last gen game is crap now, because it lacks it; just like I might buy Wii games that don't care to use it; as long as that's not due to lazyness.

 

Innovation is good of course, but innovation through lower budget titles, either new, or spin-off's is not what I want. Bottom line for me is, just like it's utterly stupid to draw such a clear line, like some are trying to with hardcores and casuals "this is a casual game/console, this is a hardcore game/console" and trying to make them as separate stuff as in: "I'm not supposed to like this, I'm supposed to only like that"; I mean it's like movie tie ins and child games have been for years, mostly crappy also because the developers can't identify with them and dislike the setting from the start; but that's also a lot of the times a form of incompetence; not being able to put in something for themselves. (yes, I'm not forgetting the tight deadlines for movie tie ins though, and low budget for some child games)

 

I'm rerailing though, my point is... it's also dumb to think that, since they considered it casual already or something, that they can actually put in less effort for it; specially when it's leading. PSone was a pretty casual console, most people who are FF fans now picked FF7 on the PSone (and hence still see it as the best FF ever) because they hadn't played any game like it before, or any game with depth and a "good story" to start with... now, should developers be isolating themselves on their high horses, or getting down to earth with the masses? This is also a anti-thesis when nowadays game difficulty pretty much died, with anyone ending a game as long as he doesn't get bored; Is MGS4 a hardcore game when if it is like it's predecessors it can be finished in a handful of hours on the first play? (as in... it's not a big game, although it incites replay's) isn't that casual friendly and though, part of what made it sell? So why not putting such titles (I'm not gonna say MGS4 for obvious reasons) on the console?

 

Same for car simulators, I can say I actually don't give a rat's ass about them, but most GT costumers are hardcore now?

 

I'd say... realistic game attempts are much more friendly to the masses (and that's were developers are going mostly in the HD's), just as "popular theme" realistic games such as cars, sports games and stuff like that are... So, how can developers be so stubborn?

 

There haven't been images of Top Spin 3 Wii revealed yet, but we had IGN say it looks like crap... and it still has the guts to lack a online mode unlike the HD versions... How is that a good service, and how can they have the face to actually invest in more features for the non-leading platforms in a genre that is perfect for the Wiimote to start with? is motion sensing our advantage? then why are they giving us the worse effort?

 

Regarding innovation and lower budget... We need a balance between established main entries and spin-off's new franchises. After all aren't third party's focusing mostly on main entries to sell on the HD systems? (Halo3, CoD4, MGS4, FFXIII, etc)

 

All in all seems to be a biased and incompetent conclusion to take; same for what we heard of this game and others, that third party's actually were sending these guys away saying "we don't want to publish mature content on the Wii".

And to the other stuff. I don't disagree with your feelings at all, you're perfectly right. Maybe the success of MK and Smashbros will help bring in more publishers.

You're forgetting Fire Emblem; if that's not a clear message for Wii RPG's and the "It can't work on the controller" I don't know what is. it has zero motion sensing and zero pointing features (and it could have pointing features) but did anyone buy it for those? and do they really care?

[Gizmo]

*didn't read the full discussion*

 

Just because it makes business sense doesn't mean people have to like it. I think that's what people are trying to say, Jamba.