The Politics Thread

[Mikey]

Of course libertarian ideology will be forced on people, the changes will have to be enforced against the will of people who are against them and there will have to be powers in force to prevent people forming what the paranoid nutters in ultimate control would consider a 'state', either on a national or regional level.

 

In spite of the political differences, the fanciful idea everyone will muck in and make a lovely land where no-one needs welfare because of all the sunny happy people will help out the poor and homeless with their new charities is certainly a bedfellow of communism, it's just the means of achieving it which is different. The ultimate (and unachievable) aim of communism is that once the utopian society is reached there will be no need for the state any more so it will dismantle. The totalitarian revolutionary government is supposedly only there on a tempory basis until this is reached.

 

The reality of true libertarianism would be small gated communities of the incredibly rich with private services (especially security), and 90% of the county a chaotic ghetto with no power, water, law or order in permanent state civil war between a threadbare, underfunded police force, corrupt vigilantes and drug gangs. But like I say, there's no point arguing about it because the entire idea of a libertarian Britain is a fantasy.

 

EDIT: Just to add I've found an alarming number of 'libertarians' who are pro-death penalty. I find it quite strange that these people who supposedly want a minimalist, powerless, skeleton state also want the current (Evill, corrupt, oppressing, all-powerful etc) state to have to power over life and death, placing it in a bucket alongside such freedom loving, hands-off states as China, Iran and Saudia Arabia...

 

No, libertarian ideology wouldn't be forced on anyone, it is freedom from forced ideology. It's minimal government, giving people as much freedom as reasonably possible. That's the entire point. Liberalism and other ideologies are forced on people by the state, regardless of whther we agree or not. Liberarians don't want to stop people from being liberal or conservative if they want, they just leave it up to personal choice.

 

As for pure libertarianism, well I'm not for that anyway. Most liberarians just want the state to mind their own business when it comes to choices we make at home. Like I've said before, the state is a needed evil.

 

As for the charities, well it would be up to people if they fund them or not. That's the point, it's choice. If you look at charities today which aren't government funded, they do well without being funded by the state. So there's no reason why welfare and such can't be privatized.

 

As for the death penalty, I am against it in ALL cases, even for the likes of Hitler.

 

Also its seems to me that before it was the same crap but from a far more right wing adgenda from the conservatives. Now you have lefties that push binked OTT attiutde regards racism (rather than laws/atttiudes to protect all now hear time and again about when those laws seem to be completely biased in atttitude and balance against white people (I am NOT racist (it is is WRONG) but I feel this the case with the LAW -see positive discrimination) the enviroment (now im in two minds on this one but hey I know motorist your going to be paying even more to drive, like to smoke and drink as well (like me)? bet you loved the budget! ) and imigration, now this is not a people issue for me either its an issue of being toofar to liberal in our imigaration policies in a country with finate resourses. You should sort out the economy of your own country (and im sorry but YES look after your own) before letting in new imigrants (we are not fully complete back on feet after 18 yrs of tory rule -were getting there IMO but were not there yet).

 

There areas of great poverty and unenployment still the UK were high amounts of imigrants have been re populated (or so is my underatanding) you this cant be a good thing. Its not about the people, its about the circumstance.

 

I voterd labour in 1997 and thought left wing thinking was the noly way to think, now I see why its not.

 

Hmm lots of type o's there gotta go back my job now though so ill edit em later. Its still readably folks. dashs off...

 

Yes, I'm not a massive fan of the right either. Neither the left or right wing should have the right to force their ideology on people with the bully state.

 

Found these funny pics of Hitlery Clinton.

 

 

[The fish]

Liberals are so full of shit.

 

Who in the fuck are the state to tell me when I can and can't see my own children? Who in the hell are the state to tell me how I can and can't support my family? Who in the hell do the state think they are making paying for sex illegal? These are all personal affairs which they have no business in. Need to mind their own fucking business.

 

In order - how am I full of shit, do they really, you can support your family by any legal method and prostitution puts women in massive amounts of danger.

 

Oh, and the kids thing, their safety is the state's business.

[Mikey]

Most people would die for their children as it is. Children are now state property, and take them away as they see fit just on the advice of scum bag social workers. It should be up to the mother and father to decide what's right for their own kids, no one else. These days the unfairly state rips fathers away from their kids, and to a much lesser extent their mothers. The only time the state should even get involved, is if someone is seriously abusing their children. When it comes to things liek who should get custody, the state shouldn't even get any sort of a say unless one parent is blatantly abusive.

 

Prostitution is no one else's business other than the seller and buyer. The state has no business telling women they can't sell their bodies, and the state has no business telling men they can't pay for it. Tyrants. They can't stop it anyway, all they can do is intimidate people to go along with what ever they decide.

 

I watched a TV show the other night, and some guy and a paid whore were on the show. Some thug police officer came poking his nose in where it wasn't welcome. They said if he wanted to keep his liberty, he shouldn't visit any more sluts. I almost choked with laughter.

[McPhee]

In order - how am I full of shit, do they really, you can support your family by any legal method and prostitution puts women in massive amounts of danger.

 

Oh, and the kids thing, their safety is the state's business.

 

It's all down to freedom of choice though isn't it? And they way things are going that will become very limited. Everything that could cause harm to someone is slowly being made illegal, we're being wrapped up in cotton wool just in case we get hurt.

 

The question is: why? Life is about risks, not sitting in front of some TV screen rotting you're mind to mush.

 

I'd like to see the government pull back on Social and Civil affairs and concentrate on Crime. We should be free to make our own choices as long as it doesn't impose upon the human rights of others.

[DomJcg]

MY thoughts on the matter

 

Mikey should live in America

 

Libertarianism is what Thatcher was,

 

yay clinton

[Mikey]

Communist, man hating Hitlery? Yeah, nice one.

[The fish]

Mikey should live in America

 

Libertarianism is what Thatcher was,

 

yay clinton

 

Seconded, that makes it even worse, and you shall be beaten with a stick, respectively.

 

Most people would die for their children as it is. Children are now state property, and take them away as they see fit just on the advice of scum bag social workers. It should be up to the mother and father to decide what's right for their own kids, no one else. These days the unfairly state rips fathers away from their kids, and to a much lesser extent their mothers. The only time the state should even get involved, is if someone is seriously abusing their children. When it comes to things liek who should get custody, the state shouldn't even get any sort of a say unless one parent is blatantly abusive.

 

Ok, home school your kids, and if a parent thinks that a child should be allowed to hurt others, that doesn't make it right.

 

As for the second bold bit, they don't, really, they just mediate. Parents in a broken family are unlikely to see eye to eye, so it's actually a good think.

 

Prostitution is no one else's business other than the seller and buyer. The state has no business telling women they can't sell their bodies, and the state has no business telling men they can't pay for it. Tyrants. They can't stop it anyway, all they can do is intimidate people to go along with what ever they decide.

 

Why don't they have any business in it? If they legalise it, it makes it easier for some nutjob to pick up a woman, and kill/rape her.

[Mikey]

You're twisting things.

 

Not every one can home school well enough, or has the time to. The only alternative is public schooling, maybe private schooling if you have the money. Either way, they have no right to be teaching kids about ideology in tax funded schools.

 

The government coming in and deciding who can have the kids is a joke. They almost always go for the woman regardless, and then the father has to beg for the right to see his own kids on the state's terms. If things were left to both parents, then whoever is the caring, driven, smartest and most dominant would take control of the children more often than not. The state has no idea what goes on behind a family's front door, and can't possibly give a well informed decision on the matter. Also, again, it's none of their business.

 

Yes, prostitution should be legalized. It's sex between 2 consenting adults for god sake. There's a risk in everything you do, and who the hell are the state to tell women whether or not they can or not take the risk? Also, the men fucking the sluts are also taking the risk of getting STDs. As long as they know the risk involved before going in to it, they should be left to it.

 

I find it ridiculous saying it'd make it easier to kill or rape them. The thug police couldn't possibly stop it happening either way. All the thug police can do is try to catch the criminal after the crime has been committed. Everytime a woman walks down the street she risks something happening to her. As do men. Any man at any time could be accused of rape by a woman, yet are we going to tell men to stop interacting with women? Of course not.

[The fish]

Everytime a woman walks down the street she risks something happening to her. As do men.

 

If you can't tell the difference in levels of vulnerability between walking down the street and standing at night on your own being willing to be taken elsewhere by someone, then I'd say there was something wrong with you.

 

On a more serious note, it's treating bodies as commodities, which hasn't been done legally here since 1833 which is the issue here, not to mention that, if legalised, it would create a boom in sex trafficking.

 

The government coming in and deciding who can have the kids is a joke. They almost always go for the woman regardless, and then the father has to beg for the right to see his own kids on the state's terms. If things were left to both parents, then whoever is the caring, driven, smartest and most dominant would take control of the children more often than not. The state has no idea what goes on behind a family's front door, and can't possibly give a well informed decision on the matter. Also, again, it's none of their business.

 

Two of my (unrelated) friends have separated parents. In one case, the mother has the kids, as the father is a psycho who would hit both her and the children, and in the other, the state suggested the chosen solution, in which the mother keeps the children, and they visit their father every other weekend.

 

The first example reminds me - you're being too general with these "The state has no idea what goes on behind a family's front door, and can't possibly give a well informed decision on the matter" statements. If a father is proved to be hitting his kids, then, well, it's proved, so they then "know", and it's fairly easy to make an informed decision on those grounds...

[Mikey]

The point is, there's a risk in everything people do.

 

As for the sex trafficking boom, well that sounds like a load of feminist horse shit. (The same dirty feminists who claimed women would be trafficked in their thousands during the 2006 world cup, although only 2 recorded cases appeared) Prostitution is legal in parts of the USA, and nothing of the sort has happened.

[The fish]

As for the sex trafficking boom, well that sounds like a load of feminist horse shit. (The same dirty feminists who claimed women would be trafficked in their thousands during the 2006 world cup, although only 2 recorded cases appeared) Prostitution is legal in parts of the USA, and nothing of the sort has happened.

 

You seem to misunderstand what a feminist is. It's a person who thinks women should get equal pay to men.

 

Where it is legal stateside, it's done in brothels.

[Mikey]

I know what feminism is, and it isn't what it claims to be. Bunch of lying filth bags. The KKK claim not to hate black people, yet you wouldn't buy that in a second.

 

Prostitution is prostitution regardless. Porn actors are basically prostitutes. The reason why prostituion is illegal in this country, is because the state wouldn't be able to tax it effectively.

[McPhee]

You seem to misunderstand what a feminist is. It's a person who thinks women should get equal pay to men.

 

Where it is legal stateside, it's done in brothels.

 

The only reason prostitution is on the streets over here is because Brothels are illegal and easy to shut down. Prostitutes aren't stupid, they know the risks. Legalise prostitution and you legalise Brothels, at which point these women fill form them in order to give themselves protection.

 

And a Feminist isn't someone who seeks equal pay to men. They seek equal rights, the more extreme among them even believe they are above men.

 

Out of curiosity Fish, do you plan on making some points of you're own in here? Or are you just here to spin what Mikey says so it works against him?

[The fish]

I know what feminism is, and it isn't what it claims to be. Bunch of lying filth bags.

 

Awesome, you just insulted my sister, and all my female friends. A feminist is, as McPhee said, someone who wishes for women to have equal rights to men, and the prime difference at the moment in the UK is that of pay. There are also female-superiority types, but they're just hypocrites.

 

Out of curiosity Fish, do you plan on making some points of you're own in here?

 

I do, actually - I'm a liberal humanist who can't seem to understand why people want a conservative government - the current one might not be exemplar, but it's certainly not bad, and look what happened the last time the conservatives where in power - they fucked the country up, big time.

 

I'm very, very anti-discrimination, and, while anti-authoritarian, I am pro-rule of law (most recent example: cannabis - it's illegal for a reason!). I accept no extreme political philosophy - libertarianism vs utilitarianism is not and either/or battle, it's a sliding scale, in which the best result can be found somewhere in the middle. Anarchism doesn't work (think Montreal police strike), neither does totalitarianism (take your pick, there are many examples).

 

As for topical issues, as I said, I'm against the legalisation of cannabis, I'm pro-choice, and I think homophobes and racists are in need of a damn good slapping.

[Mikey]

Awesome, you just insulted my sister, and all my female friends. A feminist is, as McPhee said, someone who wishes for women to have equal rights to men, and the prime difference at the moment in the UK is that of pay. There are also female-superiority types, but they're just hypocrites.

 

I don't care who I insulted. Feminists are lying filth.

[fex]

I don't care who I insulted. Feminists are lying filth.

 

And you have a shit accent.

________

Yamaha Ox99-11

Edited April 28, 2011 by fex

[jayseven]

Had a brief look at this thread, and I just wanted to agree with McPhee;

 

Legalising brothels will reduce the dangers prostitutes face. I don't want to be one, and I don't want to pay for the services, but I don't think it's fair that they have less legal rights. Not like they have a trade union or anything! If yo pimp lays the smack down on yo ass, who you gonna call? Etc.

 

Also, 'booms' in any freshly legalised area are to some extent due to the numbers rising above board and becoming 'visable'. How can you know to what extent something increases if you never had an exact beancount before?

 

Now for politics; specifically, what's the debate? Politics is such a broad subject, arguments never get near a conclusion of opposing sides and instead just follow little paths and tunnels into new areas.

[Mikey]

And you have a shit accent.

 

 

Do I? Funny, because I have almost no accent.

 

Feminists are still filth.

[jayseven]

Mikey; if you talk, you have an accent

[fex]

Do I? Funny, because I have almost no accent.

 

Feminists are still filth.

 

Of course you have an accent, saying that you almost have no accent is just retarded. Anyway... why is it so bad to want women to be equal? Not just in the workplace, but what's your argument against equality?

________

Sativa strains

Edited April 28, 2011 by fex

[MoogleViper]

I think we should be governed. As long as the government is there only to protect and govern people who do wrong. I hear people moaning about CCTV and things like that. I think that every street should have a camera. "But it violates our human rights." So fucking what? Having CCTV will not hinder you in anyway at all. The only people for which it is a problem are the ones who are comitting crimes. CCTV won't stop you going to the shops, it won't stop you going to work, it won't stop you watching telly, it will stop you commiting a crime. If you ask me we should all be tagged at birth.

[McMad]

Can't wait for Identity cards to come a save us from all that terrorism Labour keeps warning us about.

 

Wait a minute... Weren't the 7/7 bombers born and raised in Britain? OH SHI-

[Mikey]

Of course you have an accent, saying that you almost have no accent is just retarded. Anyway... why is it so bad to want women to be equal? Not just in the workplace, but what's your argument against equality?

 

It was clear you meant a Scouse accent. I barely have one.

 

Feminists are not for equality, they're a bunch of liars.

[MoogleViper]

Can't wait for Identity cards to come a save us from all that terrorism Labour keeps warning us about.

 

Wait a minute... Weren't the 7/7 bombers born and raised in Britain? OH SHI-

 

Identity cards are bullshit. People can fake passports and they are easy enough to get hold of. If it can be made then it can be couterfeited.

[Wesley]

I wish Tony Blair was still Prime Minister...