The Official MGS4 Thread.

[Julius]

Well, it got better. A whole lot better. 

Didn't quite put as much time into the game as I might have wanted to this weekend, but still managed to make some steady progress. Currently in Act 3 with Big Mama, though I don't think she quite finished her speech, it was getting late, so I saved at the first opportunity. 

Just going to dump hype moments in the spoiler tag for now:

Spoiler

Rose and The Colonel suck, but we knew that from MGS2, so nothing new there. 

Raiden hype when he starts talking to us on the Codec. 

More Raiden hype when he turns up. 

Even more when he turns up and dishes it out to Vamp and those Irvings! 

Oh, and Vamp hype. 

And Naomi hype. Being super shady again (boo) and making my eyes roll that she won't bother to button her shirt up; I know Eva did something similar in the last game, but she was trying to seduce Big Boss, so at least it made some sense, and obviously fulfil the femme fatale archetype. For Naomi it just feels like straight up fan service (the wrong kind, and unnecessary at that), and some of the camera angles have been a little silly. The character's face is attractive enough as it is, I don't really see the need for cleavage in every shot she's in  

And Sunny hype for just being fun and Olga's daughter. 

And Liquid hype. 

And visage of Psycho Mantis hype. Curious about that one...

And duuuuuude EVA HYPE, I know I'm probably only part way through what she's digging into but when we met Big Mama, I was like "huh, kind of looks like The Boss. Weird." but nah, Eva instead, which I will gladly take. The reveal that she's the surrogate mother of Liquid and Solid definitely made my jaw drop, and it was great getting some more about the Zero / Big Boss backstory. 

Not to mention Big Boss being alive, in some form. Seeing him from MGS3 in a cutscene just when they were talking about him gave me chills. And don't think I didn't notice how we're currently now back at the plot from the first game, retrieving the body of Big Boss! 

Anyways, I think Act 1 was almost deceiving in how poorly executed I felt it was. Loading screens, frame rate, etc., aside, I don't feel it actually got enjoyable until meeting up with Meryl and Rat Patrol. The level design wasn't bad, by any stretch, but it just felt very tightly packed, and it made it a bit of a nightmare - as the first act - to get back to grips with things. Might have been the point from an artistic sense - war is suffocating - but from a gameplay sense, it seemed a poor way to return to the franchise. 

But Act 2, hell yeah, it's been so much better. Basically just MGS3 in many ways, from the encounter music, to the chase sequence (also, are those Irvings mooing? Or is it just me? Because for some reason it really ramps up how creepy that are), to just the overall flow and design of the level. Tracking down Naomi with night vision definitely felt like a throwback to The End. This level was exactly what I needed to get myself back to grips with the mechanics, and though there are still occasions where I'll accidentally slip from being hardcore into Tactical Espionage Action, and just go berserk with the tranquilliser or a machine gun when found out. 

But hey, it's still fun in those moments, so as a wise Reggie once said:

Something I've found weird so far in the game though is that the AI definitely feels a little...at odds with itself. I imagine it's improved in some ways objectively compared with MGS3, but in terms of what I've experienced, it's way easier to take advantage of. One time I turned a corner and three guys were there, one staring right at me from a couple of yards away, but none of them really reacted, so I just started popping them in the head with the tranquilliser. And there have definitely been some moments where the MGS / MGS2 method of just sprinting by, in that weird, arcade-like sense, seems to work, much more so than I felt was the case in 3. Not really a complaint, so much an observation I've found a little confusing trying to figure out. 

Also took on the first boss fight, Laughing Octopus, and I really enjoyed it. It was cool when she turned invisible, but infinitely cooler when she started becoming props in the rooms. Died the first two times, because I just got super unlucky running myself into a corner when she was doing her rolling attack, but other than that single attack, not too much of an issue. Felt like I cheated her second phase, if you could call it that (when she doesn't have the Doctor Octopus arms), because I was carrying a machine gun, and so mowed her down in a couple of seconds. Noticed a lot of petals at the end there, reminding me of the end of MGS3...something I've definitely been pondering. 

Oh, and the OctoCamo is awesome. Great natural and modern evolution of what we got in MGS3, I love it. And other than that, have to mention the resistance member whistling - and Sunny singing to - the main theme's melody. I know not to expect the full thing blasting at some point (unfortunately) after reading into that a bit more after playing through MGS3, but at least it seems to be here in some form. 

Also, got to mention cutscenes just having the option to view flashbacks with X, which I mentioned last time, or having more control over them in the mission briefings just adds that layer of interactivity which I think - so far - has justified the longer cutscene sequences. It keeps you interested with the controller by your side, and what they do in the mission briefings I found particularly cool on a technical level. Unfortunately I missed the flashbacks which showed up when Drebin was talking at the end of Act 2, purely because I was so drawn into the cutscene and popped the controller aside for a second 

But yeah, it's definitely picked up, both in terms of story and in terms of gameplay. By the way, the start of Act 3, with the trailing mission? Easily the best trailing mission I've played, if only for the Eastern European setting and matching detective noir vibe alone (probably one of the better uses of a lot of bloom from a visual perspective, too). 

Really looking forward to continuing with Act 3. In my opinion, Act 1's latter half was a marked improvement on the first half, Act 2 was great, and, so far, Act 3 has been too. Got high hopes for the rest of the game again now 

14 hours ago, drahkon said:

There has been a bit of talk about Bluepoint Games remaking the original Metal Gear Solid series. Here's hoping it's true and MGS4 will be part of their endeavor.

Honestly, stick Bluepoint's MGS2 and MGS3 remasters on the store, let them remaster MGS4 a similar way (I seriously think getting rid of the number of load screens would elevate this game somewhat, just from a pacing perspective), and I'd be happy.

And obviously the icing on the cake would be a remake of the original Metal Gear Solid, like you mentioned.

I know loads of people say to just make it just straight up third person, but honestly, I think a hybrid of the third person and top down perspectives would be much better (and freely swapping between them, perhaps), because I think back to some of those boss fights in the first game, and you would have to completely redesign them to be a third person experience, which would be a little weird; the fights with Vulcan Raven and Revolver Ocelot, in particular, come to mind. Never mind that Bluepoint doesn't have experience with retooling a top down design to a third person design, at least as far as I'm aware, but maybe I'm forgetting something? 

Was also funny thinking about a potential MGS remake earlier and thinking about how Konami would have 1000% pushed the Fox Engine on them a couple of years ago (which, to be fair, I would've been cool with), but likely wouldn't now, considering that PES is going over to Unreal Engine. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Julius

[drahkon]

3 minutes ago, Julius said:

Got high hopes for the rest of the game again now

[Julius]

Alright, so I'm not done for the evening, but I'm on Act 4 now, and I imagine everyone who has played the game knows what that means...

Spoiler

Shadow. Freakin'. Moses. 

Yeah, I had it spoiled a long time ago that it was in this game, but completely without context; honestly, I was expecting it to play out playing through MGS if anything, like in the flashback where you play through the first minute of that game, because surely we wouldn't get it remade here? So glad I was mistaken. 

And The Best Is Yet To Come just kicked in.

Alright, back to it 

[Hero-of-Time]

The Best Is Yet To Come....it certainly is. 

[drahkon]

YES!

Shame you had it spoiled, though

[Julius]

Got through to the end of Act 4 this evening, so, all being well, I imagine I'll probably see credits roll tomorrow based on how the story has progressed (and me guessing that there are 5 Acts). 

Spoiler

So, yeah, holy cow, this Act is all kinds of awesome. Going back to Shadow Moses, seeing how things have changed (all the ravens still being around!), the memories playing out through dialogue or music or even when you get to play the first couple of minutes and we get that great transition in the helicopter from young, pixelated MGS Solid Snake to MGS 4 Snake. And then you've got Otacon and Snake reminiscing about how the Shadow Moses incident went down, talking about certain parts, but then hilariously having Otacon drop the "Swap to Disc 2" line, before we get Snake's "Damn it, Otacon, get a grip!"  gah, loved it all. 

That stuff is fan service done absolutely right (only similar example popping to mind right now might be in Pokémon, of all things, when getting to pop over to Kanto in the Johto games after beating the Elite Four), though I'll admit that it's funny playing through this with the knowledge of MGS V existing and thinking how this is very, very clearly trying to wrap a lot of threads up. 

Crying Wolf was a fun boss battle, obvious parallels to Sniper Wolf from MGS, but I think it shook things up enough. Hiding under the tank/truck made it super easy, but it did mean I had to play the waiting game a good bit. Quite enjoyed the battle against Raging Raven back in Act 3 too, which by the way, I thought was also a great Act. 

Then there's getting to the wrecked Metal Gear Rex, and as soon as I noticed it, I just knew we were going to be hopping inside at some point. But not before we got Raiden vs Vamp atop Rex, all the while taking up half the screen as Snake uses the railgun to annihilate the Irving's, which felt so, so good, given how annoying an obstacle they've been throughout much of the game. Loved the Snake vs Vamp fight, instantly knew what the solution was, feel like these games have always done a decent job of balancing what is told to you in the story and allowing you to use it mechanically. Naomi kind of sucks to be honest so not too much of a loss in my mind, Otacon loses a loved one yet again (dude is legitimately cursed at this point), and then it's jumping in Rex to escape and then take on Ray. 

Hell yeah, I loved that too. Grin on my face the entire time, seriously, why is a Metal Gear mech arena fighting game not a thing?! Oh right, Konami...  

Definitely some silly moments in this Act (Liquid running from Solid as he chases him and acts like a carefree child), but totally get what @Hero-of-Time means when he mentions it being like an anime at points, and it almost entirely revolves around Raiden. Turning up at the last second; cutting his own arm off to lend a helping hand; SOMEHOW SLOWING DOWN OUTER HAVEN AS FOR SOME REASON LIQUID STUPIDLY DECIDES THAT OF ALL THINGS, RAMMING OUTER HAVEN INTO SOLID IS THE BEST HE COULD COME UP WITH AFTER ALL THIS TIME. You catch my drift. I don't mind it too much to be honest on the whole, though him pushing back against Outer Haven was perhaps a little much too much for me. Out of curiosity, how is Metal Gear Rising? I am always down for Metal Gear, Raiden, and all of his anime antics. 

So, yeah, I'm having a great time going into what I assume to be the final Act.

Act 1 aside (for me easily the weakest opening in the series that I've experienced so far, and maybe one of the worst "levels" too?), and some of my issues with the game from a technical perspective like the constant loading screens and how cutscenes are sometimes treated (again: things which could really, REALLY be fixed in a remaster), I don't know, I'm struggling to see why this is as divisive as it is. Maybe it's something to do with the final Act, but so far none of the cutscenes themselves have felt too long for my liking yet, and while it is over the top at times, it's been in keeping with the previous games tonally 

I'm really loving it now, either way. 

4 hours ago, drahkon said:

YES!

Shame you had it spoiled, though

Yeah, just one of those things. This was easily 3 or 4 years back listening to some gaming podcast or something, where they either did that thing where someone says "spoiler alert" and give you zero time to react, or just dived right in. Maybe it's just me, but if the only thing you've got to talk about with Metal Gear Solid 4 is something which happens in Act 4? Maybe you shouldn't be talking about it at all.

It's very surprising to me how many journalists completely bungle things like this: if you want me to experience something you loved, maybe don't spoil it. Totally think there's a place for spoiler discussion when it comes to just about anything, but your selling point for watching Star Wars should not be "Vader is Luke's father and then Luke helps redeem him!", it should be that "it's a tale about family and what it means to be a family", "it's a story about how even when a dark shadow is cast, there is a light", etc. Be generic but descriptive, I don't know...

Anyways, rant over, that's just a rant from me about spoilers in general. In this particular instance, while unfortunate, I didn't get any context or see anything about the spoiler, so while it would have been cool to know it wasn't here going into this, it got me more excited in a way because I didn't know why, or how, or when, and so on. And I definitely didn't know what went down, and I had no idea about many of the events in the rest of the game. 

Very much looking forward to seeing how it all plays out tomorrow 

[drahkon]

12 minutes ago, Julius said:

how is Metal Gear Rising?

I would love to post a video of one of the final battles, but...it's best you experience that for yourself

Metal Gear Rising: Revenenenengeance is...something. I remember loving the gameplay but I don't really remember anything about the story. Pretty sure it's ridiculous

If you like action games, you can't go wrong. It's from that time when PlatinumGames used to make games that are actually good.

[Julius]

Act 5 is over and credits have rolled, so that's a wrap on Metal Gear Solid 4. 

Spoiler

Wasn't the biggest fan of how the gameplay section of Outer Haven kicked off, if I'm being honest. Being surrounded and already on alert meant, to me at least, that the game wanted you to push on in an offensive manner, but the spaces are just too cramped to allow you to make use of your arsenal, and even when facing off against Irvings, there isn't enough of a let up in the waves of soldiers for you to take a good whack at it. The times I tried to go harder on stealth, one guy would always turn up out of absolutely nowhere and spot me instantly, which resulted in...well, the above. This part definitely felt a bit like Act 1 more than the other Acts in this regard, because it made the gameplay feel a bit more stilted. 

Getting inside, things were a bit better. Taking on the waves of soldiers in that room was a bit much, but taking on Screaming Mantis was good fun when trying to figure out what the game was asking of you and using previous understanding of the story to make things easier for yourself (again, love that syringe). And then Psycho Mantis turns up and is like "It was me all along! Let me read your personality..." and I'm laughing like a hyena because of course there's no memory card, and then putting down the DualShock again, loved it 

That section running through a corridor just to get over to another corridor and being harassed by those black robots with three arms for legs was a bit annoying, I just resorted to constantly rolling through them, and then Raiden turns up at the most predictable time imaginable, without his arms and with a sword in his mouth. I love how silly it is at times, but again, Raiden always seems to take it a little too far, so I guess I can see why some might not be the biggest fan 

Going through the hallway where you're bombarded with microwaves and seeing everything play out elsewhere in the top half of the screen was awesome (as was the music), digital graveyard was a little bit weird, Naomi turned up again, and of course Otacon can't keep his crap together 

And then it's on the roof, Snake's lying down after all of this is over, but the game has very clearly been hinting at an MGS fist fight rematch with Liquid...and then a familiar looking guy turns up, and guess who? And thus ensues one of the most hype moments in video games (well, after a few minutes of cutscene sparring - Metal Gear Saga rules). 

I was pounding the air with my fist when the life bar from Metal Gear Solid turned up and that font, and then Encounter kicked in - I lost my crap! Love how for that first part he's trying to use his headbutt dash, just like old times. I knew they'd do similar for the others, so Tanker Incident kicked in after, then we got Revolver's hand gesture from Snake Eater, and Snake Eater kicked in, the life bars and font changed and the stamina meter came in, and I tried to keep my distance just so I could hear the song  and then Old Snake kicked in, and Liquid's down and out, we get a hint at what's really going on with him being a mental doppelganger, before the good old "You're pretty good." Man, I loved every second of it. 

Then the game goes into cutscenes for a good while as everything wraps up, Raiden gets his happy ending, we learn Drebin's past, Snake...kills himself? Credits start, I'm like "No way, really? Weird..." and I look down for a little while as I soak it in, kind of in doubt and waiting for the end of the credits for some kind of answer, before looking up to see:

BIG BOSS - RICHARD DOYLE

Wait a second, Big Boss didn't have any lines in– HOLY CRAP

Credits stop. 

More cutscenes, but I really couldn't give much less of a damn, because I loved it. Wrapped pretty much everything left up (at least that I could think of) in a beautiful and poetic way, and then credits roll for real, and we get Here's To You. 

Look, I do think Metal Gear Solid 4 has some issues, quite possibly more than any of the previous Metal Gear Solid games. Act 1 is a bit of a mess until Rat Patrol turns up, there are a looooooot of cutscenes (if that's not your thing, well, you'll probably have issues with it), a lot of loading screens, frame rate issues galore, and so on. The latter two could be fixed in a remaster, though, and it's not something I really hold against the game, it's just a product of its time. 

Because for all of its issues, they wouldn't be there without a ton of ambition and clear love for this franchise, not just from Kojima, but clearly from the whole team that worked on it. The sheer abundance of nods, flashbacks, tie-ins, returning characters, and very direct moments of fan service allowing us to fulfill some wishes I could have only dreamed of fulfilling after the earlier games, makes this one hell of a great time, and I had a huge smile on my face throughout a lot of it. 

The music is great as ever. I need to listen to the soundtrack some more, for sure, and it sucks that they couldn't use the Main Theme from previous games in all of its glory, but I did find it funny that it still turned up being whistled in Act 3 and is the tune Sunny sings to when cooking eggs. Transitioning from that to focus on the secondary melody from the Main Theme to make Metal Gear Saga was about as good an alternative as we could get, and I was happy with it. Definitely a couple of times where they start hinting at it only to subvert into this more melancholy tune, does make me wonder if anyone's gone back through the cutscenes on YouTube and added it back in, because it did feel on a few occasions like there was a little something missing musically, and I think this was it. 

So, Metal Gear Solid 4. Flawed? No doubt about it, in my personal opinion. And yet, it still manages to be the home of some of the greatest and most hype moments in the series, tells an engrossing story, has a wonderful cast, and pays homage to what came before in a way I don't think I've ever experienced before in a video game.

I ended up absolutely loving it, flaws and all. 

[Hero-of-Time]

"I am lightning. The rain transformed." 

Love it!  

Glad to see you loved the microwave scene. That whole area is done so well. Snake crawling, Raiden fighting off soldiers and Meryl and Jonny fighting back to back. Brilliant stuff.

[drahkon]

8 hours ago, Julius said:

And yet, it still manages to be the home of some of the greatest and most hype moments in the series, tells an engrossing story, has a wonderful cast, and pays homage to what came before in a way I don't think I've ever experienced before in a video game.

Very well put.

No matter what some people might say, Kojima is a master of his craft and he knows how to tell a story.

[Happenstance]

Just now, drahkon said:

Very well put.

No matter what some people might say, Kojima is a master of his craft and he knows how to tell a story.

I'd disagree with that when it comes to V.

[drahkon]

3 minutes ago, Happenstance said:

I'd disagree with that when it comes to V.

Fair enough.

I do think that it was partially (probably mainly) a problem with the Konami-fallout and in turn budget issues, though. But then again, I don't know half of what happened there  

I've spent a lot of time with MGSV and listened to all casette tapes, read a lot of internet theories/summaries and the ideas present in the plot are brilliant. But I agree, the way it was presented was severely lacking.

Edited February 17, 2021 by drahkon

[Happenstance]

Just now, drahkon said:

Fair enough.

I do think that it was partially (probably mainly) a problem with the Konami-fallout and in turn budget issues, though. But then again, I don't know half of what happened there  

Yeah I definitely think the Konami issue was a big part of it but even before that decisions like hiring someone like Keifer Sutherland who would never have time to fully voice a character for a game that length or come back for re-writes was a big mistake.

It does make you wonder if the theories that it never was supposed to be MGS5 were true. I'm sure I read a quote somewhere once from Kojima saying he would never name an MGS game with a roman numeral and given what happens in that game the name we got could make sense in other ways.

[drahkon]

It all makes sense now.