MoogleViper Posted December 21, 2012 Posted December 21, 2012 Compare with Arkham City, Red Dead Redemption and Skyrim, which are all just unbelievable games in terms of design and game experience. I honestly don't get the Arkham City and Red Dead love. I thought they were not much better than mediocre. Incredibly overrated games.
Ronnie Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 You could potentially see further into the distance, for example. When you first played Wind Waker or Super Mario Sunshine, were you not impressed at the extra detail you could see in the distance? I was more impressed that the designers allowed us the freedom to sail anywhere, and all that entailed in terms of open-ended gameplay, exploration and a lack of linearity. The technical specs of being able to see detail in the background was a nice touch, but that's about it. If the game had been on the N64 and there were loading times every so often, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Nintendo gave us a huge world to explore at our own pace. That's what I want from Zelda, vision and clever design, not more polygons. Castle Town just wasn't intricately modelled in 3D. So what? Neither was the one in Ocarina of Time and that's heralded as one of the best games of all time. Technical specs shouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things, Zelda has far more to worry about than being able to see an accurate 3D representation of the main town (as an example). Sony and Microsoft care about pumping out the most incredible graphics humanly possible... and little else, not Nintendo. Yes the bump to HD will create a stunning looking Zelda, but unless they fix the problems unrelated to graphics the series will continue to slide.
MoogleViper Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 That's what I want from Zelda, vision and clever design, not more polygons. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. Nobody's saying that Nintendo didn't try something different with SS, I'm sure we all agree that they did, some of us are just saying that we don't like/agree with what they did or the direction that they took it in.
Ville Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 I honestly don't get the Arkham City and Red Dead love. I thought they were not much better than mediocre. Incredibly overrated games. Interesting, I thought they were brilliant games. Something in particular you didn't like in them, or just generally not your cup of tea?
MoogleViper Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 Interesting, I thought they were brilliant games. Something in particular you didn't like in them, or just generally not your cup of tea? They were good games, but nothing special. The combat in Arkham City was very repetitive. Once you'd done a few fights you'd done them all. Red Dead just seemed like GTA Wild West to me.
Dog-amoto Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 I honestly don't get the Arkham City and Red Dead love. I thought they were not much better than mediocre. Incredibly overrated games. Needs to be said again... :p
Grazza Posted December 22, 2012 Posted December 22, 2012 So what? So, it makes it more real. Personally, I loved the fact that the trapdoors in Windfall Jail led to the correct part of the sea outside. I loved the view of the horizon in the rich man's house that changed depending on what angle you approached it from. I also loved the way you could glide down from the windmill and, if you could land on the right ledge, could enter a secret passageway into the photographer's house, surprise him and then leave via the front door. But if you didn't, fair enough.
Ronnie Posted December 23, 2012 Posted December 23, 2012 So, it makes it more real. Personally, I loved the fact that the trapdoors in Windfall Jail led to the correct part of the sea outside. I loved the view of the horizon in the rich man's house that changed depending on what angle you approached it from. I also loved the way you could glide down from the windmill and, if you could land on the right ledge, could enter a secret passageway into the photographer's house, surprise him and then leave via the front door. But if you didn't, fair enough. Absolutely, those are fantastic little bits of detail, but they're a little different to your complaint that in some views Castle Town wasn't 'intricately modeled in 3D'
Grazza Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Alright, @Ronnie, it's not worth arguing about mate, what with all the terrible things in the world. I'm sure we both just want to play another great Zelda, even if we express it differently. (Offers olive branch...)
Ronnie Posted December 24, 2012 Posted December 24, 2012 Yep fair enough, we're going round in circles now anyway. I think we both just want Wind Waker 2 haha.
Rummy Posted December 26, 2012 Posted December 26, 2012 A 3DS remake of Majoras Mask would be something thats for sure. It would suit the handheld, especially the mask transformations. I'd love to see it, but I do wonder if the ability to sleep would take out the impending doom aspect for many people who've not played it before, or possibly even those of us who have. The limited save system carries an aspect of throwback to old games, where you'd only be able to save at certain points etc. I remember thinking certainly whilst I was playing and under time pressures about what I could, or could not, get done before I had to shut off - plus the time-risk of travelling to/from an owl statue as well. With such a time heavy game, even though a minor aspect, I'd wonder if it'd have a larger effect.
Grazza Posted December 26, 2012 Posted December 26, 2012 That's a good point, Rummy, but you'd still have to do each dungeon efficiently. It takes time to work out the puzzles and then put that into practice. The more I think about it, the more I want a 3DS remake of it!
Ronnie Posted December 27, 2012 Posted December 27, 2012 Good point Rummy. To be honest, as much as I adore the game and would like a 3DS remake, I'd prefer a brand new Zelda game. They can release MM 3D a year later or something.
Captain Falcon Posted December 27, 2012 Posted December 27, 2012 I think that was one of the points all the OoT3D reviews picked up on - and ports for other console based games in general (Snake Eater getting particularly hammered for it). The game is designed to be played for extended periods and the the save system would need a big overhaul to make it suitable for handheld gaming. It is slightly worrying to think that you could find yourself in a dungeon for longer that the 3DS battery will last with no means of saving. It might be my imagination @Ronnie, but I think you are taking people's definition of HD Zelda a little too literally - people mean Zelda on a high powered machine that can give life to rich graphics whilst simultaneously freeing developers of system constraints imposed by limited RAM and a low end CPU. I think that's where a lot of the confusion lies between yours and Grazza's discusion as it does sound like you really want the same things. It seems to me that you say the gamplay needs changing to evolve the series and that you don't necessarily need a more powerful machine to do it whereas Grazza feels a lot of aspects holding the games back are down to trying to balance both the graphics and gameplay on a limited environment and a new machine should free them of that to let them do improve everything. Two views that I wouldn't classify as being in conflict with each other. I hope that's right anyway and I'm not putting words in your mouths/completely missing your points.
Grazza Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Yep, I can't disagree. I'd honestly rather be on friendly terms with you again, Ronnie, than "win" any arguments or debates about it. I know how much we loved thos moments in Wind Waker and I hope we have more like that to celebrate in the future!
Ronnie Posted December 28, 2012 Posted December 28, 2012 Never stopped being on friendly terms Grazza, doesn't mean we can't disagree on things
Rummy Posted January 1, 2013 Posted January 1, 2013 (edited) Jesus, would you two stop being civil and call each other pricks or something?! This is a gaming forum after all, jeez! I think that was one of the points all the OoT3D reviews picked up on - and ports for other console based games in general (Snake Eater getting particularly hammered for it). The game is designed to be played for extended periods and the the save system would need a big overhaul to make it suitable for handheld gaming. It is slightly worrying to think that you could find yourself in a dungeon for longer that the 3DS battery will last with no means of saving. Well...I dunno if I would ever consider being in a dungeon so long the battery wouldn't hold out - but again, it's just like console gaming as a kid/sorta what I mentioned with MM - you play so much, find you've gotta stop, save and shut off. Whilst back in the day that might be because you're mum's yelling at you to put some bloody clothes on because you gotta be at your uncle's in 10 minutes, or now because you're battery's showing red - it's still the same time pressure applied. Leading on to; That's a good point, Rummy, but you'd still have to do each dungeon efficiently. It takes time to work out the puzzles and then put that into practice. The more I think about it, the more I want a 3DS remake of it! Yes, no doubt. Sometimes it's difficult to do something efficiently though, when you don't know the thing you're doing. Not everyone would go for every fairy in a dungeon on their first playthrough - that comes into efficiency of the 'dungeon' too. I'm not saying nobody will, either - but it's an addition on time pressures and when new to the game you might just get it wrong. I remember I didn't realise the slowing song/forwarding song despite the hints and had to look it up, can you believe before that I was playing on green time! Even so, that's well departing from my point. You MIGHT plan to play the dungeon efficiently, and do well to do so, but it's 4:05pm, you're still half naked and you told Uncle Jim you'd be there at 4pm, if not a bit earlier. Your mum's got a hand around your chubby arm and trying hard to drag you away from the TV, almost succeeding bar your cries that you still gotta save and really mum just two minutes more til I CAN save and it'll only take me literally like 2 seconds to get dressed I swear mum and then I'm straight in the car, honest mum, REALLY MUM PLEEEEASE I GOTTA SAVE! NO MUM PLEEEASE I SWEAR JUST LIKE ANOTHER MINUTE I SWEAR MUM PLEAAASE! IF I DON'T IM GONNA WASTE THE LAST TWO HOURS I SPENT PLAYING, PLEEEASE!!! - OK but just another minute - Sweet, just let me run back to the entrance, look, I'm running now, I just need to get to an owl statue see? - but it looks like you're just fighting stuff Rummy - yeah I KNOW that, I HAVE to fight it to get back past, I need to just get a little bit beyond here - look! there! the statue! - What statue? - that statue right there! The one that looks like a owl! I just gotta hit it with my sword and then I can sort of save and then I swear I'll be dressed in like, a whole minute at the most, or else you can take away my pocket money for a month! I swear mum, I swear! THERE! Do I want to save, see? Do I want to save? Yes! Yes, I do want to save! Not sure if I should have bothered, it's 6 oclock on the third day but I might still be able to make it tomorrow who knows...Jesus mum, OK! Sheesh, I'm in my room now, I'm getting dressed! I'm practically in the car! *dresses, rushes, grabs the present, and jumps in the car next to siblings; mum shortly arrives and then you sit....waiting...ten minutes for dad to come outside, realise he's forgotten something, pop back inside...5 minutes later aaand...he's in the car. You're off, still wondering if you might manage to finish it all off before the moon starts to fall, and all you're really thinking about whilst Uncle Jim and Auntie June remark about how much you've grown and ask you about all the boring stuff in your life...* OR Rummy! Put that away and get some bloody clothes on! We've got to go and see Uncle Jim! OK mum...*shuts 3DS and runs upstairs, changes, jumps in car and re-opens 3DS, smiling happily* The later leaves you much happier, but the former pressures you with time, and leaves your console behind - as well as thinking about the game, anticipating, wondering and waiting. I don't have an Uncle Jim(nor does my mother call me Rummy, or grab me by my ne'er chubby arms), but I can't pretend that the situation of having to go somewhere but still playing my games close to departure time is unfamiliar - MM really hit home that time pressure aspect though, and I just feel it's a huge yet subtle thing that can be easily missed with the sleep feature of the 3DS. 'Save' systems have a huge impact on games imo, though can be often overlooked as a function of convenience, rather than an aspect of the game itself. I think in MM, it's one of the central functions. /NYD post drunken ramble Edited January 1, 2013 by Rummy
Grazza Posted January 1, 2013 Posted January 1, 2013 Wow, I never knew Majora's Mask caused that much trouble!
Captain Falcon Posted January 1, 2013 Posted January 1, 2013 @Rummy It's only really the Great Bay temple I'd foresee taking that long - maybe not 3 hours of pure dungeon crawling but getting to the entrance and with menu navigation and map checking, on a first run through, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see a novice player rack up such a duration in the place if they didn't give up first. It's more due to the fact that you can't save at any point inside a dungeon. It really doesn't lend itself to short burst gameplay sessions. Yeah you can put it in sleep mode but I don't really like doing that as I tend to forget I've done it. I'm glad they moved the power switch to the inside of the clamshell at least as I've accidently turned off my DSL so many times when I forget it's already on and I'm hitting the switch to power it up before opening it (thus turning it off). I get your point about how the sleep function does alleviate some of the tenseness associated with having to plan your gameplay sessions in advance, much like your in game actions too, and whilst I can see why that would add to the experience, I'm not sure if that was really part of the original design or just a side affect of the choices they made. I was old enough by the time the game came out that I didn't get the constant "hurry up, we're going to uncle Jimmy's" type nagging to affect my gameplay experience.
Sheikah Posted January 1, 2013 Posted January 1, 2013 Pause game, leave N64 on, turn off TV, surely? Parents are too dumb to notice something is still on if the screen is off in my experience.
Dog-amoto Posted January 2, 2013 Posted January 2, 2013 Jesus, would you two stop being civil and call each other pricks or something?! This is a gaming forum after all, jeez! Well...I dunno if I would ever consider being in a dungeon so long the battery wouldn't hold out - but again, it's just like console gaming as a kid/sorta what I mentioned with MM - you play so much, find you've gotta stop, save and shut off. Whilst back in the day that might be because you're mum's yelling at you to put some bloody clothes on because you gotta be at your uncle's in 10 minutes, or now because you're battery's showing red - it's still the same time pressure applied. Leading on to; Yes, no doubt. Sometimes it's difficult to do something efficiently though, when you don't know the thing you're doing. Not everyone would go for every fairy in a dungeon on their first playthrough - that comes into efficiency of the 'dungeon' too. I'm not saying nobody will, either - but it's an addition on time pressures and when new to the game you might just get it wrong. I remember I didn't realise the slowing song/forwarding song despite the hints and had to look it up, can you believe before that I was playing on green time! Even so, that's well departing from my point. You MIGHT plan to play the dungeon efficiently, and do well to do so, but it's 4:05pm, you're still half naked and you told Uncle Jim you'd be there at 4pm, if not a bit earlier. Your mum's got a hand around your chubby arm and trying hard to drag you away from the TV, almost succeeding bar your cries that you still gotta save and really mum just two minutes more til I CAN save and it'll only take me literally like 2 seconds to get dressed I swear mum and then I'm straight in the car, honest mum, REALLY MUM PLEEEEASE I GOTTA SAVE! NO MUM PLEEEASE I SWEAR JUST LIKE ANOTHER MINUTE I SWEAR MUM PLEAAASE! IF I DON'T IM GONNA WASTE THE LAST TWO HOURS I SPENT PLAYING, PLEEEASE!!! - OK but just another minute - Sweet, just let me run back to the entrance, look, I'm running now, I just need to get to an owl statue see? - but it looks like you're just fighting stuff Rummy - yeah I KNOW that, I HAVE to fight it to get back past, I need to just get a little bit beyond here - look! there! the statue! - What statue? - that statue right there! The one that looks like a owl! I just gotta hit it with my sword and then I can sort of save and then I swear I'll be dressed in like, a whole minute at the most, or else you can take away my pocket money for a month! I swear mum, I swear! THERE! Do I want to save, see? Do I want to save? Yes! Yes, I do want to save! Not sure if I should have bothered, it's 6 oclock on the third day but I might still be able to make it tomorrow who knows...Jesus mum, OK! Sheesh, I'm in my room now, I'm getting dressed! I'm practically in the car! *dresses, rushes, grabs the present, and jumps in the car next to siblings; mum shortly arrives and then you sit....waiting...ten minutes for dad to come outside, realise he's forgotten something, pop back inside...5 minutes later aaand...he's in the car. You're off, still wondering if you might manage to finish it all off before the moon starts to fall, and all you're really thinking about whilst Uncle Jim and Auntie June remark about how much you've grown and ask you about all the boring stuff in your life...* OR Rummy! Put that away and get some bloody clothes on! We've got to go and see Uncle Jim! OK mum...*shuts 3DS and runs upstairs, changes, jumps in car and re-opens 3DS, smiling happily* The later leaves you much happier, but the former pressures you with time, and leaves your console behind - as well as thinking about the game, anticipating, wondering and waiting. I don't have an Uncle Jim(nor does my mother call me Rummy, or grab me by my ne'er chubby arms), but I can't pretend that the situation of having to go somewhere but still playing my games close to departure time is unfamiliar - MM really hit home that time pressure aspect though, and I just feel it's a huge yet subtle thing that can be easily missed with the sleep feature of the 3DS. 'Save' systems have a huge impact on games imo, though can be often overlooked as a function of convenience, rather than an aspect of the game itself. I think in MM, it's one of the central functions. /NYD post drunken ramble The only words I got from that were "naked" and "Uncle Jim"
Rummy Posted January 4, 2013 Posted January 4, 2013 Pause game, leave N64 on, turn off TV, surely? Parents are too dumb to notice something is still on if the screen is off in my experience. Often done, but not when I wasn't actually going to still be in the house. I loved it when parents used to 'turn off' my games by just switching the TV off. Sometimes I wonder if they knew, and just thought it'd make the point without upsetting me too much. The only words I got from that were "naked" and "Uncle Jim" Oh yeah @Rummy It's only really the Great Bay temple I'd foresee taking that long - maybe not 3 hours of pure dungeon crawling but getting to the entrance and with menu navigation and map checking, on a first run through, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see a novice player rack up such a duration in the place if they didn't give up first. It's more due to the fact that you can't save at any point inside a dungeon. It really doesn't lend itself to short burst gameplay sessions. Yeah you can put it in sleep mode but I don't really like doing that as I tend to forget I've done it. I'm glad they moved the power switch to the inside of the clamshell at least as I've accidently turned off my DSL so many times when I forget it's already on and I'm hitting the switch to power it up before opening it (thus turning it off). I get your point about how the sleep function does alleviate some of the tenseness associated with having to plan your gameplay sessions in advance, much like your in game actions too, and whilst I can see why that would add to the experience, I'm not sure if that was really part of the original design or just a side affect of the choices they made. I was old enough by the time the game came out that I didn't get the constant "hurry up, we're going to uncle Jimmy's" type nagging to affect my gameplay experience. Incredibly fair points. I'm of course basing most of the context of my own on my own experience - which was possibly different given I could only really play my games/consoles on weekends until probably my mid-teens. The other thing is, my perspective of gaming has changed a lot now. I'm older, I buy games almost all the time(more so downloadable/steam) and then never actually find time to play them. I'm so unlimited compared to what I used to be(with some still sealed games too, along with ones touched for barely an hour). When I was a kid it was probably a game or two a year, and I'd end up playing the crap out of them - even if they were crap themselves! I wonder if kids still have that? Was I the only one? I also wonder, especially for games that are so close to my own heart and experiences, I wonder if remakes wwill have the same impact on the current young generation of gamers as they did on me. Change of audience is one thing, change of game in addition(ie save function in this case) might change how it's experienced - will it have the same impact? All just my own concerns over a rather trivial matter though. I'll leave it here, as I've kind of exhuasted the point!
Wii Posted December 23, 2013 Posted December 23, 2013 Majora's Mask Live Action: The Skull Kid https://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=rlyUt0RIGlo Great little fan made live action video that deserves a mention.
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