LazyBoy Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 You know i'm reminded of a graphic novel called 100 bullets, where characters are given 100 untraceable bullets, to do with them as they wish. Highly recommended. Aimless, great post. I'm afraid my pessimistic little mind doesn't believe in altruism. I'm young, and still have a lot to learn, so I may change my mind in years to come, but for now, I link everything back to one ultimate goal. To address the question more directly Haden, I have to ask, who am I shooting? I guess I could kill a few people yeah, but most are worth more to me alive (meant in the nicest way ofcourse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 If I were an atheist (which I am not, although I find the mindset very easy to get into), then killing someone and getting away with it would be bad for two reasons... 1- it seems to be unfair to deprive the person of life which they may enjoy, 2- it might upset other people, such as relatives etc. Remove these two factors, and it is then equal to destroying something inanimate, which is still generally considered bad. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 Ok again guys nice posts. Right to aimless. You paint a grand picture of evolution. However for the purposes of this the protaginist cares not. He is killing for the gain of himself and his family. Its perfectly in keeping with evolution yet out side any universal human family ideas. To Dan Dare. What I am saying is that I dont understand why if I were to become an atheist I should follow this alien moral concept? Becuase of tradition? Because my genes tell me to? This is the question I am asking. To Lazyboy no oone in paticular. Just someone you could gain from if they died. Thanks to all your answers guys. Again I am just playing devils advocate so im sorry if I come across as akward and pedantic just want to get some answers Is everyone who has posted so far an atheist or just representing ahteism in a cameo role? I guess it doesnt matter really. Anyway carry on posting guys! If I were an atheist (which I am not, although I find the mindset very easy to get into), then killing someone and getting away with it would be bad for two reasons... 1- it seems to be unfair to deprive the person of life which they may enjoy, 2- it might upset other people, such as relatives etc. Remove these two factors, and it is then equal to destroying something inanimate, which is still generally considered bad. 6 Aha ok. This is a good post. Now this fairness thing you put forward. Considering all immoral action is unfair why should I care about this and as for upsetting relatives again not my problem. Good post though! What religion are you out of intrest or are you an agnostic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shino Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Ever watched Death Note, Haden? http://www.deathnotefan.com/ I think you'll find interesting. Also, I'm Christian, but like many this religion is an heritage and I don't view it as mine, my choice is atheist. (I bet Supergrunch is buddhist) Edit: I can no longer discuss this, as my perception of morality is obviously biased. I guess only a sociopath can tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyBoy Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 I really can't say Haden, I mean it's a life, there's far more i'd have to take into consideration. My general mantra in life is that man should be able to live as he wishes, as long as he doens't impeade the next mans ability to do the same. If he does so, then that right he holds to live his life as he desires is lost. So there's my answer as to whether I would commit murder. I call myself an atheist, but I follow certain confuscianist principles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 29, 2006 Author Share Posted October 29, 2006 Ever watched Death Note, Haden? http://www.deathnotefan.com/ I think you'll find interesting. Also, I'm Christian, but like many this religion is an heritage and I don't view it as mine, my choice is atheist. (I bet Supergrunch is buddhist) Edit: I can no longer discuss this, as my perception of morality is obviously biased. I guess only a sociopath can tell you. Cool thanks I will look into that. Hey and no carry on the discussion! Everyones biased towards something. I really can't say Haden, I mean it's a life, there's far more i'd have to take into consideration. My general mantra in life is that man should be able to live as he wishes, as long as he doens't impeade the next mans ability to do the same. If he does so, then that right he holds to live his life as he desires is lost. So there's my answer as to whether I would commit murder. I call myself an atheist, but I follow certain confuscianist principles. Cool dont worry I dont mean to put uber pressure on people. I just mean you follow your principles but I dont see how anyone could say I did something 'wrong' if I killed someone to enhance myself if its built into me and theres no outside moral law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 . What I am saying is that I dont understand why if I were to become an atheist I should follow this alien moral concept? Becuase of tradition? Because my genes tell me to? This is the question I am asking. my point being that morality is not an alien concept to atheism. Secular morality is based on conscience/instinct and social conditioning. what you have to understand is that on some basic mental level, murder is fundamentally wrong because we possess empathy.Anyone with a lack of ability to do this is considered to be a psychopath. somebody who can, and will, kill because they simply lack the capability to see beyond themselves and how their actions affect others. Religion doesn't really come into it as far as I can see. It's true that they say 'thou shall not kill' and they certainly attach the ultimate punishment to such an act, but really that's just an extension of the human instinct to not kill rather than the cause of it if you follow me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaggle64 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I just mean you follow your principles but I dont see how anyone could say I did something 'wrong' if I killed someone to enhance myself if its built into me and theres no outside moral law. Are you not basically saying then that it's not wrong if you get away with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 my point being that morality is not an alien concept to atheism. Secular morality is based on conscience/instinct and social conditioning. what you have to understand is that on some basic mental level, murder is fundamentally wrong because we possess empathy.Anyone with a lack of ability to do this is considered to be a psychopath. somebody who can, and will, kill because they simply lack the capability to see beyond themselves and how their actions affect others. Religion doesn't really come into it as far as I can see. It's true that they say 'thou shall not kill' and they certainly attach the ultimate punishment to such an act, but really that's just an extension of the human instinct to not kill rather than the cause of it if you follow me... But lots of people have murded before so its not like we are incapable of doing it. And what I am saying is what would stop me if I wanted to do it and could gain from it without society finding out. Are you not basically saying then that it's not wrong if you get away with it? If that was to me. I am saying that there is no wrong just group empathy and surivaval instinct that have been built into me by a meanless series of accidents and if you can get away with it why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaggle64 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 But lots of people have murded before so its not like we are incapable of doing it. And what I am saying is what would stop me if I wanted to do it and could gain from it without society finding out. If that was to me. I am saying that there is no wrong just group empathy and surivaval instinct that have been built into me by a meanless series of accidents and if you can get away with it why not. So why haven't you? There are plenty of everyday situations where I could have injured or even murdered someone for a variety of minor and significant gains, and probably have gotten away scot free. I didn't do it though, as I'd just feel guilty about the effects my actions would have. What's stopping you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 So why haven't you? There are plenty of everyday situations where I could have injured or even murdered someone for a variety of minor and significant gains, and probably have gotten away scot free. I didn't do it though, as I'd just feel guilty about the effects my actions would have. What's stopping you? Hey man Im not saying you or I are going to murder anyone I just want to know what would stop me if I was an athiest. This thread isnt some sort of atheists are murdering homosexual pigs! type thing. I was just wondering if there was a good reason not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Aha ok. This is a good post. Now this fairness thing you put forward. Considering all immoral action is unfair why should I care about this and as for upsetting relatives again not my problem. Good post though! What religion are you out of intrest or are you an agnostic? I think you're confusing not believing in an afterlife (ie. being an atheist) and not caring about other peoples feelings. Contary to some people's belief, atheists are not necessarily heartless bastards. Making someone else suffer (such as the relatives of the dead person) is being cruel, and lack of belief in a God does not give you justification to cause such suffering. The whole "depriving someone of life" thing is a bit more complicated, but I think it revolves around removing that persons potential to enjoy the rest of their life (of which there will be none if the person is dead). As for my religion, I'm sort of an agnostic... However, I think that if there is a God or afterlife etc., then I don't see why it should be that proposed in any of today's dogmatic doctrines. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 I think you're confusing not believing in an afterlife (ie. being an atheist) and not caring about other peoples feelings. Contary to some people's belief, atheists are not necessarily heartless bastards. Making someone else suffer (such as the relatives of the dead person) is being cruel, and lack of belief in a God does not give you justification to cause such suffering. The whole "depriving someone of life" thing is a bit more complicated, but I think it revolves around removing that persons potential to enjoy the rest of their life (of which there will be none if the person is dead). As for my religion, I'm sort of an agnostic... However, I think that if there is a God or afterlife etc., then I don't see why it should be that proposed in any of today's dogmatic doctrines. 5 Im not really putting any presumptions about atheists forwards at all. I am jsut contemplating openly what possible legitmate reason could be given for it being a bad thing to do to murder someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ford Prefect Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 i can think of a few people that i could quite cheerfully throttle without really caring much about what i'd done. but then untill you've done something like that you can't really comment. since its hard wired into EVERY human being, deep in the most primitive part of our brains, not to kill another of our speces because the main goal of every life form is to further the speces. its only certain people that can conciously override that instinct and actually go through with it, but even some of them can be scarred by the act. we all see that same scarring in veterans of wars past and present. pretty much every day we lose a guy to a war that happened sometimes decades ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaggle64 Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Hey man Im not saying you or I are going to murder anyone I just want to know what would stop me if I was an athiest. This thread isnt some sort of atheists are murdering homosexual pigs! type thing. I was just wondering if there was a good reason not to. Don't worry, I was talking fairly hypothetically. Interesting though isn't it? There are loads of situations out there where people (of ALL faiths) could personally benefit by attacking someone else and probably get away with it. But they don't. I really do think it's built into our genes, and you can't escape it. You say you could probably ignore it, but you can't. Violence is bad and our bodies tell us by feeling bad. Even soldiers brainwashed to kill after a long campaign are left with horrific mental scars that will last them their whole lives. The whole reason the SS used gas chambers was because their troops were too traumatised actually having to shoot or blow up Jewish prisoners. It's kinda weird in it's own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 i can think of a few people that i could quite cheerfully throttle without really caring much about what i'd done. but then untill you've done something like that you can't really comment. since its hard wired into EVERY human being, deep in the most primitive part of our brains, not to kill another of our speces because the main goal of every life form is to further the speces. its only certain people that can conciously override that instinct and actually go through with it, but even some of them can be scarred by the act. we all see that same scarring in veterans of wars past and present. pretty much every day we lose a guy to a war that happened sometimes decades ago. Ah ok thats intresting however lets say you could get over this scarring or didnt care about it or could even rationlise it as we undertand what it is. Once we got over this hurdle what is there to stop us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aimless Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 I'm not sure what you're asking anymore. If you have no morals or ethics, then no, there's nothing to stop you from killing this person. But these things come as standard with every human, to a certain extent, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove or discover, as we already know that sociopaths are capable of killing people without remorse. I don't understand what religion has to do with this thread at all. I don't follow any belief, yet I literally won't hurt a fly if I can help it. Going to church doesn't make you a better person, resisting the temptation to sin does, and religious people aren't given a vaccination against sin: it's just as hard for them as everybody else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Don't worry, I was talking fairly hypothetically. Interesting though isn't it? There are loads of situations out there where people (of ALL faiths) could personally benefit by attacking someone else and probably get away with it. But they don't. I really do think it's built into our genes, and you can't escape it. You say you could probably ignore it, but you can't. Violence is bad and our bodies tell us by feeling bad. Even soldiers brainwashed to kill after a long campaign are left with horrific mental scars that will last them their whole lives. The whole reason the SS used gas chambers was because their troops were too traumatised actually having to shoot or blow up Jewish prisoners. It's kinda weird in it's own way. But I mean lets say we could develop gene engeriring to overide this emotion. What would be left to stop us? I do agree with your and fords points although I see it as consience as I am approaching it from a different angle although maybe they arent incompatible but thats anotehr topic. I'm not sure what you're asking anymore. If you have no morals or ethics, then no, there's nothing to stop you from killing this person. But these things come as standard with every human, to a certain extent, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove or discover, as we already know that sociopaths are capable of killing people without remorse. I don't understand what religion has to do with this thread at all. I don't follow any belief, yet I literally won't hurt a fly if I can help it. Going to church doesn't make you a better person, resisting the temptation to sin does, and religious people aren't given a vaccination against sin: it's just as hard for them as everybody else. I agree with your last paragraph entierly. And I will state again that this thread is in know way saying atheists are more nasty immoral etc than religious people. What I am saying is that if you are an atheist if you could rationlise what morality is. Which is jsut bad feelings generated by a certian part of your brain because you broke a group code. Why not overide it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 well if you override (or lack) that feeling, you're pretty much a sociopath like we've mentioned already. Obviously they have little or no connection to society as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ford Prefect Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Ah ok thats intresting however lets say you could get over this scarring or didnt care about it or could even rationlise it as we undertand what it is. Once we got over this hurdle what is there to stop us? nice idea, but we can't really "get over" our primeval drives etc. like has already been said, look at all these guys who come back from wars, they're all fucked up in some way or another. i've heard of guys killing themselves on bonfire night because they couldnt take it any longer, all the explosions bringing back all the shit from when they were fighting. for them every day can be a battle, even if the war ended 60 years ago its still as real for them now as it was back then. you simply cannot get round the fact that one human is not meant to kill another. its not something we invented and learned, we were pre programmed with it and later made it part of our culture and religions. even if you found a way to "cancel out" such things i don't think you'd be a popular person, someone would probabaly silence you and bury your findings before you put release them propperly. because such a thing would only lead to more problems. can you imagine an army that could commit any kind of horrific act upon anyone, even their own countrymen and not feel any kind of remorse, pain or anything? that would be to remove the very thing that makes them "human"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Hmm tbh. I think in say the dark ages on roman times or my period im studying atm the Byzantine era. A lot of this happened. And I mean a hell of a lot. Murder for personal gain was on the top of the agenda. 14 emperors in a few years at one point I think. Although you are right about the way murder scars some people. Even if it is hard to do. And I dont think everyone in history who has done this has been a sociopath. Is there any reason that it shouldnt be done from a moral standpoint? If morality is just group mechanics sorry to keep repeating myself but I dont think anyone has quite nailed that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Im not really putting any presumptions about atheists forwards at all. I am jsut contemplating openly what possible legitmate reason could be given for it being a bad thing to do to murder someone. Ah, I see, I misunderstood your original question.. I was thinking that it was "if you were an atheist, why would it be bad to kill someone?" I think it ultimately depends on the nature of your conscience (or, indeed, if you have one). Killing someone is almost always going to be "bad" for someone, even if it is only the person you are killing. Even if you were an atheist, the person was unable to be happy ever again, and nobody cared about the person, then it would still be pointless destruction of life. But that brings us onto euthanasia... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 Its bad for them but who cares as its good for me. I justify myself by the fact that I am following the course of nature in fact this pseudo character needs no justification at all. Ok I really ought to go to bed now lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergrunch Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Its bad for them but who cares as its good for me. I justify myself by the fact that I am following the course of nature in fact this pseudo character needs no justification at all. Ok I really ought to go to bed now lol. But where does this assumption of no conscience come from? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted October 30, 2006 Author Share Posted October 30, 2006 But where does this assumption of no conscience come from?3 Aha ok there is a conscience but is it outside the herd instinct? If not why should I care. Ok so far in this thread people ahve mostly been giving reasons why someone couldnt murder someone else just for personal gain. I actually think that this is an untruth. Firstly because it has happened so many times in human history and secondaly because we are not completely controlled by any of our natural instincts. What I really want is a reason that lets say some badass like Tom Cruises character in Colletoral. Who is killing people he has never met for personal gain is doing something wrong. In fact that film is all about this subject. As he cites the meanlessness of life as justification for what he is doing. So if we could move to this area that would be ace! Never the less thanks for all the replies so far anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts