goku21 Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The structure of gpu´s and the way it works, naturally allows it to add extensions!!! Means: you can just take a flipper and add a few shadermodel 2/3 pipelines and you´re done!
DCK Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 1. Judging the Mario Galaxy video, the only game that has it's graphics really designed for the Wii hardware, ATI has made tremendous updates in the shading department. The effects seen are simply out of the question for last gen technology. 2. When ATI updates shaders, they really update things. Recently they've shown this by tripling the amount of shaders in the X1800 -> X1900 evolution. This leads me to the conclusion that ATI has made tremendous shader improvements. If ATI improves the shaders for the Wii, the most likely have a shader system on the GPU similar to the Xbox 360 and DirectX 10 level graphics chips - a unified shading architecture. They wouldn't leave out normal mapping that way. The third parties IGN works with are probably small companies that do Java games for mobile phones and occassionally a console game. They don't have priority in the devkit shipping, and therefore IGN keeps on reviewing Cube devkits saying it's Wii hardware.
system_error Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 My main concern is that: Nintendo always claimed cheaper development can be achieved because of the lack of HD (which is stupid in my eyes, but not important) and because developers who worked on the Gamecube have more experience because the architecture stayed similar. First Wii development kits have been modified Gamecubes. Now if I look at the first batch of games I am a bit disappointed because naturally you would assume that the combination of experience + upgraded hardware (compared to the Gamecube) would result in something better than what we saw so far. Sure Mario Galaxy looks awesome but if you count in the fact that the Galaxy developers are used to the Gamecube and got seriously upgrades hardware it is not awesome anymore in my eyes. It is without a doubt a good looking game but nothing special. The Wii needs at least 128MB RAM (better 256) because the disc size changed from 1.5GB to about 9GB - to maintain the same loading times you need about 6 times the memory they previously used - which is 6 x 40MB (24MB main memory + auxillary RAM) = 240MB RAM. Split it in 128MB main (MoSYS) and 128MB auxillary (sound, OS, ... can be used for games aswell). GPU: Don't focus on clockspeed but functionality which help developers to speed up the process of creating a visually stunning game or at least help them to free up time for gameplay instead of wasting hours on a engine. They should got for a ATI mobile GPU with adjusted clockspeed and improved power saving features (to ensure connect24 works fine). My laptop has a GF 6800 GO which plays any current game just fine with 325MHz, supports pixel shader 3.0 and lower clockspeed on the fly. They can just enhance the Flipper - that would be sufficient but they should do it well and not save on imortant parts like functions (shaders, ...) and memory. CPU: PowerPC architecture - not GEKKO but similar. Power stepping - 1.6GHz to xxxMHz. Powersaving, big cache, AltiVec units and done. CPU is not that important in my eyes. Best thing would be dual core with 1.6GHz but that won't happen.
Hellfire Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The thing is system error, why do you think it's not awesome, just because of that. You said it yourself, it looks awesome, then why put it in another perspective. That's just silly.
system_error Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The thing is system error, why do you think it's not awesome, just because of that. You said it yourself, it looks awesome, then why put it in another perspective. That's just silly. It does look awesome for a first generation titel developed by a bigger studio. But it is developed by Nintendo - they build the damn console, are used to the development like nobody else... and from that viewpoint it is not awesome anymore.
Hellfire Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The thing is you need to watch those things from any viewpoint except the hardware limitations. If it looks awesome it looks awesome that's it. Mario games always look simple and this is no exception. If this exact same game was made on 360/PS3 the graphics would be the same, I don't see any big flaws there.
DCK Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The only reason why Mario Galaxy looks so great and the others do not is because it was the only game that, being inhouse and all, has been designed for Wii all the way, and it was the only game purely designed for Wii that was ready to be shown. Other developers haven't minded graphics that much yet because it wasn't the final hardware anyway. Mario Galaxy probably had the final devkit already, while third parties will only get it next month. I bet FFCC, Resident Evil and Call of Duty 3 will look closer to Mario Galaxy than stuff we've seen so far. They were too busy adjusting to the final devkit they couldn't be shown in gameplay.
Hellfire Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 For exemple Red Steel was only worked on with Wii dev kits for about a month, before that it was worked on a PC. So graphically, they had to keep it low in order to prevent problems if the wii was to weak, and with the controller they had very little time.
system_error Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 For exemple Red Steel was only worked on with Wii dev kits for about a month, before that it was worked on a PC. So graphically, they had to keep it low in order to prevent problems if the wii was to weak, and with the controller they had very little time. I don't want to destroy your illusion but as a key partner developing an exclusive Nintendo game and publishing Rayman on the Wii I think Ubisoft might not have final devkits for long BUT I am sure they know the Wii hardware since quite a while. Normally you know as a developer specifications from day one - they might change but most times this results in better hardware. So this argument is pointless. Especially why did they have to work on a PC when most devkits are only upgraded Gamecubes? Even the hardware on the showfloor have been modified cubes... Graphics don't need much time once the engine is done - better texture resolution, filtering, ... this is done with a few clicks. So this whole graphics look not so good because of the controller is stupid. If you have a good idea I am sure it doesn't take more time to use the controller like any other controller. After all the RedSteel control mechanism is nothing too special - surely fun but nothing which would take more than 5 minutes to think about. Especially in a FPS! From http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=65133 : "We have been sharing information and development tools with publishers since very early on in the process. We have communicated to them why it makes sense to develop for the platform, and why it makes business sense to bring their best current franchises and brand-new concepts to the platform," Fils-Aime said. So there is no excuse - key developers know everything as early as developers on PS3 or MS if not earlier. Now tell me which games look good and are also promising concerning gameplay if you look at the launch titles (Galaxy might not even be one).
gorrit Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 Graphics don't need much time once the engine is done - better texture resolution, filtering, ... this is done with a few clicks. Ehm, what? Higher texture resolution, sure, it's easy to implement in code, but you do also need textures of higher resolution. And shaders etc, depending on how it's done, it can take alot longer time than a few clicks to implement and then add some amount of time to make it look good. If it was just a few clicks, then we would always be at the edge of graphics, but it also takes skilled programmers (and time) to make it work.
goku21 Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The only reason why Mario Galaxy looks so great and the others do not is because it was the only game that, being inhouse and all, has been designed for Wii all the way, and it was the only game purely designed for Wii that was ready to be shown. Other developers haven't minded graphics that much yet because it wasn't the final hardware anyway. Mario Galaxy probably had the final devkit already, while third parties will only get it next month. I bet FFCC, Resident Evil and Call of Duty 3 will look closer to Mario Galaxy than stuff we've seen so far. They were too busy adjusting to the final devkit they couldn't be shown in gameplay. Square really showed off what they are able to do with the flipper-gpu with FFCC(better looking than RE4 to me!)! The new FFCC2 will have insane graphics!!! As well as the new RE!!! Nice tech-discussion!!! Go on!!
James McGeachie Posted May 29, 2006 Posted May 29, 2006 The main reason I was getting botherered and mentioning the stuff I've said was because people were being really ignorant about Prime 3 thinking it has tons of room for improvement, when the thing is that instead of trying to make the game look drastically different they're going the more sensible route with the Wii hardware and making tons of subtle changes instead. Anyway when I was mentioning the Matt stuff, the point wasn't that it's going to be worse visually than Gamecube, not at all, it's just not going to be able to do effects that are really much more advanced than those on Gamecube. I didn't mean shaders were vanishing, it's just obvious whatever shader features Wii has they're probably exactly the same as those on Gamecube, no upgrades at all. I doubt the developers would be complaining if they were the perfect tools they needed and wanted.
Hellfire Posted May 30, 2006 Posted May 30, 2006 System error, Ubisoft themselves said this about dev kits I didn't make it up, unlike you I don't talk without knowing what I'm saying. I doubt the Wii has exactly the same shader features, but who knows.
system_error Posted May 30, 2006 Posted May 30, 2006 Ehm, what? Higher texture resolution, sure, it's easy to implement in code, but you do also need textures of higher resolution. And shaders etc, depending on how it's done, it can take alot longer time than a few clicks to implement and then add some amount of time to make it look good. If it was just a few clicks, then we would always be at the edge of graphics, but it also takes skilled programmers (and time) to make it work. That depends - with multiplattform games it should be easy because the other consoles need textures for HD resolution and I blame the lazyness and the pressure money and publishers cause for average games. Shaders can be reused if they are good and if you don't have those just use the built-in ones.
DCK Posted May 31, 2006 Posted May 31, 2006 I wonder system_error, how do you explain Red Steel graphics were plain crap? I mean Metroid Prime 3, Excite Truck and Rayman 3 weren't half bad, and Mario Galaxy looked extremely well, but Red Steel really dissappointed loads of people. If higher texture resolution and simple effects are few mouseclicks away (like we can see in Metroid Prime 3), then how come Red Steel got this feedback? By the way, James McGeachie, have you seen the shader effects in the Mario Galaxy videos? It looked very sweet. The bloom effects in Metroid Prime 3? Not possible at all on GameCube shaders without taking a major, major hit on performance. ATI has to have made upgrades. Also, Wikipedia says Wii does HDR rendering, which owns. Has it been confirmed?
system_error Posted May 31, 2006 Posted May 31, 2006 My explaination is that Ubisoft doesn't care much about graphics and try to favour gameplay (which is the wrong approach in my eyes) but since it is an exclusive game and a true FPS for a console which lacks them they know it will sell no matter what happens. I guess the final version of Red Steel will be improved but I doubt it will go beyond Resident Evil 4 quality. As far as I know HDR is not confirmed but I guess it is safe to assume that the Wii will feature most standard functions there are right now.
Jamba Posted May 31, 2006 Posted May 31, 2006 I didn't mean shaders were vanishing, it's just obvious whatever shader features Wii has they're probably exactly the same as those on Gamecube, no upgrades at all. Ummm and you know this how?
Smowza Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Go Nintendo have a link to an interview with ubisoft up, It refers to this site http://www.easynintendo.net/viewtopic.php?t=9 Easy Nintendo: First i would like to thank you for this interview, it really means alot to us here at Easy Nintendo. Red Steel got alot of attention at E3 this year, what is Ubisofts reaction to that? Xavier Poix: Well we are very happy that everyone got to experience it for themselves and that many of them came away pleased. EN: How is the online multiplayer going to work? how many players, what sort of modes will it have? XP: Unfortunately i cannot comment on anything new in regard to multiplayer at this time other than to say it will have most if not all of the standard modes you would expect from a first person shooter. EN: Can you comment on the price? XP: (laughs) Sorry. EN: How about the Wii hardware? What are the specs? XP: Although i cannot give you exact numbers at this time i can give you a rough idea about the power of the machine. I would compare the graphics chip to somewhere inbetween the ATI Radeon X1400 and the Radeon X1600, and the CPU to between the AthlonXP 2400+ and the AthlonXP 3000+. EN: Can you tell us how much memory at what speed the Wii has? XP: I cannot say how much memory the Wii has, but its running at 650mhz. EN: As we saw in many current-gen titles, 480p can result in significant jaggies. Can we expect AA and AF from Ubisoft's Wii titles? XP: Red steel will have 4x Antialiasing and 8x Anisotropic Filtering. EN: What's been your favorite thing about working on Red Steel? XP: The controller, easily. EN: What was the biggest challenge? XP: Not telling the world about it back in january (laughs). Honestly the biggest challenge has been making sure the control is just right. EN: Will Rayman on the Wii be a port of the current-gen game with new controls, or will it have new art assets for Wii? XP: Its not a port, other than that i cannot say. EN: We've been hearing a lot of consistent talk about 60fps at 480p widescreen from other developers. Is this something we'll see a lot of on Wii? XP: I believe so yes. EN: Why is this target so easy to hit? XP: The hardware is totally free of bottlenecks, nothing is slowing us down. EN: For us graphics whores, what kind of sweet graphical effects will we see in Red Steel or Rayman that we haven't seen in Gamecube games? XP: We have alot of self shadowing going on, also we will have some normal maps and bump maps things like that. EN: Will there be any innovative uses of physics in Rayman? XP: Quite a few interesting things with physics in both Red Steel and in Rayman. We've got ragdoll in Red Steel for example. EN: You said that you were using FEAR as inspiration for Red Steel's AI. How is that shaping up? XP: Yes, we loved FEAR and we tried to draw alot from it in terms of AI. In Red Steel the AI will throw grenades back at you, it will duck for cover and also try to flank you. Many things. EN: Will we see any sort of single disc network play like you have on the DS? XP: No comment. EN: Will Sam Fisher be making a return to Nintendo's home console? XP: At some point. EN: Lost Magic was one of the first compelling 3rd-party games for the DS in a while. Does Ubisoft have any more big plans for the handheld? XP: We do, keep an eye on the Tokyo Gameshow. EN: What was your favorite Ubisoft Gamecube title? XP: Prince of Persia (all of them) EN: Speaking of Prince of Persia, will we be seeing more acrobatic platforming adventures on Wii? XP: No comment. EN: Metroid Hunters was an amazing feat on the DS. Any chance that Ubi will enter the fray with an FPS of their own? XP: Possibly. EN: Could you possibly tell us anything specific about the Wii GPU? XP: I can tell you that it has double the number of pixel pipelines (of gamecube), and that it processes physics. It really takes a huge load off of the cpu. EN: Is the T&L setup fixed function like it was on the gamecube? XP: No, fully programmable. EN: How much Edram does it have? XP: 2MB for the framebuffer 2MB for the Zbuffer and 4MB for texture cache. Unfortunately I am out of time, id like to come back for another interview sometime. EN: Thank you very much Mr. Poix. The person who did the interview says they have a recording of it to prove it's legitimacy but won't release it yet as they are unsure if ubisoft will get in trouble due to NDA's..... i don't have much confidence in it being real but meh. It's interesting anyways
DCK Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Unfortunately I am out of time, id like to come back for another interview sometime. Those specs are really great except until the quote I see here. Smells really fake. Some of those specs are inaccurate too.
system_error Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Those specs are really great except until the quote I see here. Smells really fake. Some of those specs are inaccurate too. Look at the main site and you will know IT IS FAKE. Why would a Ubisoft developer answer questions about the hardware when nobody else did? This whole article has written rumour all over it. A Ubisoft answering like a spec sheet is highly unrealistic... Unknown website needs attention: Fake interview and it gets a few more hits for a few days!
Hellfire Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Yeah that's totally fake, I'm thinking the CPU will be between 700 mhz and 1.0 ghz.
DCK Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Actually, some reliable sources (DailyTech) say it's 1.1 GHz. If you keep the GameCube ratios in mind (CPU = 3x FSB speed, GPU = FSB speed, DSP = half FSB) then you get a GPU clockspeed of about 360 MHz and a 180 MHz sound processor, which should be doable. The Wii processor was offered to Apple for their future notebook CPU instead of the Pentium M, so it should be able to run at decent (that is, 1+ GHz) clockspeeds quite easily.
Ren of Heavens Posted June 1, 2006 Posted June 1, 2006 Someone on the Gamespot Wii forum claims this is the specs of the final devkit: CPU: PowerPC 750FX 729 MHz GPU: ATI 243 MHz 3 MB DRAM RAM: 88 MB 1T-SRAM Storage: 512 MB built-in flash memory + 1 SD memory card slot Media: DVD-ROM Network: IEEE 802.11b/g
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