Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

[Grazza]

Honestly, almost every single story in the legends of King Arthur is about a knight rescuing a damsel in distress (and usually marrying her). Men have more testosterone so are bigger, stronger and more likely to go fighting villains. If this has been the case for hundreds of years, maybe it just makes "sense" and is not actually a problem?

 

Let men enjoy sexy women and let women enjoy muscular men. Otherwise everything will become bland and boring. Everyone's realistically-shaped and wearing clothes that cover up their body? Great!

 

Not that I dislike this girl. She's clearly a genius for getting people to pay her money to make these videos.

[Magnus]

I think we should base everything in modern society on stories written in the 12th century.

[Grazza]

I think we should base everything in modern society on stories written in the 12th century.

 

Very much agree. Glad you've come round to my way of thinking.

[Diageo]

But it works both ways, so surely if everyone is doing it, then it's not wrong?

 

 

Or everyone is wrong.

 

It's not everyone doing it. It's a large number of people. And it's dependent on morality and the effects of what the majority want have on the minority.

 

It boils down to the fact that a number of people think that objectification is detrimental to society's view on women. This is the point you should be arguing with them about. Not whether if the majority likes it, then it's OK. Which surely you can agree it's not.

 

I'm just going to drop a potential bomb here and ask what exactly is wrong with objectification.

 

See, this question is moving things in the right direction. Although I don't think the problem described is solely based on objectification, it's a good starting point.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Diageo
Automerged Doublepost

[Ville]

Hmm, well clearly this is quite a tricky issue. I'd say that men are represented quite one-dimensionally in games as well, yet no-one's complaining. I mean many male heroes are total meathead idiots, yet we don't really mind, as long as the action is good. Even both Mario and Link are basically mute pawns, who are just doing what they're told, as nobody's interested in what they have to say. They take all the punishment and die for the woman, only to be replaced by another "Mario" or "Link", i.e. they're totally disposable. Hardly a very positive representation of males, eh? xD Makes you wonder if there's some fundamental difference in male / female thinking, guys obviously don't feel the need to analyse the games to a pulp, whereas (these feminist) women seem to want realistic characters no matter what...

 

So yeah, obviously the market is aimed at men, but what would a "female-friendly" game be like then? Because looking at her list of episodes, it seems that she's going to complain no matter what xS Like Samus, for example, she's a powerful female protagonist, yet you could argue that she's just a mindless killing machine and doesn't represent a real woman at all (I can totally imagine her making this argument). Yet the game is about a bounty hunter and lots of shooting, not a Tupperware tea party. So I'm kind of baffled at what a balanced / realistic / not sexist at all kind heroine would actually be. I mean video games are exaggerations, they are fantasy, so of course there's going to be one-dimensional characters, both male and female, there.

[MoogleViper]

It's not everyone doing it. It's a large number of people. And it's dependent on morality and the effects of what the majority want have on the minority.

 

But it's a majority on both sides. It's not one demograph oppressing another. Both sides are objectifying the other (or their own), with only a minority viewing it as wrong.

[Diageo]

Hmm, well clearly this is quite a tricky issue. I'd say that men are represented quite one-dimensionally in games as well, yet no-one's complaining. I mean many male heroes are total meathead idiots, yet we don't really mind, as long as the action is good. Even both Mario and Link are basically mute pawns, who are just doing what they're told, as nobody's interested in what they have to say. They take all the punishment and die for the woman, only to be replaced by another "Mario" or "Link", i.e. they're totally disposable. Hardly a very positive representation of males, eh? xD Makes you wonder if there's some fundamental difference in male / female thinking, guys obviously don't feel the need to analyse the games to a pulp, whereas (these feminist) women seem to want realistic characters no matter what...

 

So yeah, obviously the market is aimed at men, but what would a "female-friendly" game be like then? Because looking at her list of episodes, it seems that she's going to complain no matter what xS Like Samus, for example, she's a powerful female protagonist, yet you could argue that she's just a mindless killing machine and doesn't represent a real woman at all (I can totally imagine her making this argument). Yet the game is about a bounty hunter and lots of shooting, not a Tupperware tea party. So I'm kind of baffled at what a balanced / realistic / not sexist at all kind heroine would actually be. I mean video games are exaggerations, they are fantasy, so of course there's going to be one-dimensional characters, both male and female, there.

Well really any one-dimensional character is going to make a boring story. And many people do complain about the male main characters in games, but not because it gives men a bad name, but because they are terrible characters. I don't enjoy playing Gears of War and other alien fighting space marine games, mostly because of the gameplay, but their personality is never engaging and I never feel anything for the characters. I am not a fan of the muscle-bound, run-in-guns-blazing kind of protagonists that these games have. And men are happy to bitch about every little bit of a game, so you can't just tell me that every man plays their game happily without a care in the world because it's simply not true.

 

But it's a majority on both sides. It's not one demograph oppressing another. Both sides are objectifying the other (or their own), with only a minority viewing it as wrong.

 

While I don't have a particular problem with objectification when the purpose of the media is that.

 

I think the problem arises when objectification is unnecessary and detracts from the experience and creates bad storylines. One example is Lara Croft. Her new game develops her as a character very well, tells her story, but doesn't needlessly place her in sexual positions and in skimpy outfits for the sake of it. It would create for a far less interesting heroine and character in general.

 

I'm not part of the group of people that have a strong passion in this area so I'm being more of a devil's advocate. There aren't really any 'feminists' in this forum, with the ones that exist hiding their opinion because they get easily frustrated and give up instead of arguing their point effectively. So I don't really think we're going to get anywhere here.

 

The only person I can see with strong views in favour of this ideology is Hamishmash and he's already fed up of the way his conversation went with MoogleViper, so I don't really see anyone else joining in.

[Ville]

Well really any one-dimensional character is going to make a boring story. And many people do complain about the male main characters in games, but not because it gives men a bad name, but because they are terrible characters. I don't enjoy playing Gears of War and other alien fighting space marine games, mostly because of the gameplay, but their personality is never engaging and I never feel anything for the characters. I am not a fan of the muscle-bound, run-in-guns-blazing kind of protagonists that these games have.

Well maybe this is the point we've been trying to dig up. Personally, I really don't care if the characters are shallow if the action is good, and that's what these shooter games are really about, eh? Although, it's another thing with games that actually have good story-telling, like Red Dead Redemption, but even in that case it's just a plus that complements the action. So yes, I definitely judge the games based on what they're trying to achieve, just action or actually good character-building.

 

And men are happy to bitch about every little bit of a game, so you can't just tell me that every man plays their game happily without a care in the world because it's simply not true.

What I meant was that you don't often hear men bitching about the male characters being shallow males. Yes, the characters can and will be criticised especially if it's appropriate, i.e. the game is trying to build solid characters and isn't just a tongue-in-cheek action blast, but quite rarely on the basis of the men being one-dimensional representations of the gender, even when they clearly are that, like Mario and Link. However, with female characters it's always about the gender; too much skin, too shallow, too weak, too sexy, too naive → not realistic. Clearly there's some sort of a gap here.

[Diageo]

Well most men are not exactly fighting for equality, so they'll just talk about characters in a general 'that's a shallow character' kind of way. But certain women would like their gender represented well, so then look for examples of shallow portrayal of women, and homosexuals may look at shallow portrayals of homosexuals etc.

 

Just because men don't care about the representation of their gender, it is not a good argument for women not to care about the representation of theirs. If you want to argue against it, this is a bad thread to follow. 'Other people have it just as bad so you shouldn't complain' is not a valid argument.

[Ville]

 

Made a little video on the subject earlier, here you go. Sleepy time now...

[Magnus]

I haven't watched the video, but I think there's a difference between shallow and sexist characters. Just because Mario is a shallow character doesn't make him a sexist one.

[Hamishmash]

I think also the fact that the AmazingAtheist is a disgusting, rape-promoting freak makes me love everything he hates unconditionally.

[MoogleViper]

 

Made a little video on the subject earlier, here you go. Sleepy time now...

 

Why didn't you make it a video response? Would have gotten more views, and I would love to see what Aneeta(sp?)'s fans think.

 

I haven't watched the video, but I think there's a difference between shallow and sexist characters. Just because Mario is a shallow character doesn't make him a sexist one.

 

But men are always (or at least, more so than women are viewed as sex objects) portrayed solely as muscular fighters. Take Gears of War, that's basically saying that all men should be built like tanks and talk like they've smoked 40 a day for 20 years, otherwise they're weak little nancy boys.

[Magnus]

It's male power fantasies created by men for men, as opposed to female sex objects created by men for men.

[Cube]

Why didn't you make it a video response? Would have gotten more views, and I would love to see what Aneeta(sp?)'s fans think.

 

Because comments/responses/statistics are disabled.

[MoogleViper]

It's male power fantasies created by men for men, as opposed to female sex objects created by men for men.

 

But that's the point, it's made for men. There are plenty of products aimed at men, and plenty aimed at women. Companies specifically target particular genders (and many other different demographs), as it's a valid business technique. This isn't sexism, this is sparta it's just business.

 

Is it ageist that most games are aimed at young people? No, it's just a targeted market.

 

And as for not having the choice, well then I must be a rare case, because looking down my list of games (which is pretty long), hardly any fall into the categories that we've mentioned.

 

Because comments/responses/statistics are disabled.

 

[Diageo]

I think also the fact that the AmazingAtheist is a disgusting, rape-promoting freak makes me love everything he hates unconditionally.

 

That's just silly, he doesn't promote rape.

 

But that's the point, it's made for men. There are plenty of products aimed at men, and plenty aimed at women. Companies specifically target particular genders (and many other different demographs), as it's a valid business technique. This isn't sexism, this is sparta it's just business.

 

Is it ageist that most games are aimed at young people? No, it's just a targeted market.

 

And as for not having the choice, well then I must be a rare case, because looking down my list of games (which is pretty long), hardly any fall into the categories that we've mentioned.

 

 

 

 

Do feminist complain about choice? I don't think so. Can we get a concrete example of what exactly feminists don't like because we're not really getting to the core here.

[Magnus]

If Hamish says that Atheist guy promotes rape I'm going to believe him, simply because that's more interesting.

 

 

But that's the point, it's made for men. There are plenty of products aimed at men, and plenty aimed at women. Companies specifically target particular genders (and many other different demographs), as it's a valid business technique. This isn't sexism, this is sparta it's just business.

Video games should be aimed at anyone who likes video games? Instead of being stuck in this endless cycle of *makes video games aimed at males* "oh, women don't play our video games" *makes more video games aimed at males*

 

Clearly the market is there, as series like Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Tomb Raider and The Sims have a lot of female fans. Just because more straight, white men play video games than any other group doesn't mean they have to exclude everyone else. It's like how BioWare included gay relationships in Mass Effect 3. Would it have been better for them to only include straight relationships because that's their biggest demographic?

[MoogleViper]

Do feminist complain about choice?

 

The problem with video games is that when you're a straight, white male, you have the luxury of choice because you're in the majority and most games are aimed at your demographic. It's a much bigger risk to release a game starring a female character because a lot of male gamers won't play a game like that (because they can't relate to female main characters, apparently, which makes them sound like sociopaths). If you're a female gamer, it's a lot harder to vote with your wallet.

 

Was responding to this sentiment.

 

Would it have been better for them to only include straight relationships because that's their biggest demographic?

 

If that would increase sales, then yes, because that's how business works.

 

As you just pointed out, there are plenty of games that don't follow that formula, but while ever there's a big market for it, companies will make those games.

 

 

Let's take Rom-Coms. 99% of them are aimed at women. They portray men in a unrealistic way that's attractive to females (in the same way that women are portrayed in some VGs). Is it sexist? Is it wrong to cater to their target audience? No, it's just business.

[Magnus]

If that would increase sales, then yes, because that's how business works.

Remind me to never support any of your business ventures. :p

 

Just because something is good business, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. If I started selling little dolls with blackface that were really popular with racists and made me hundreds of thousands of dollars, that wouldn't make it not racist or less morally bankrupt.

 

And rom-coms are sexist all around.

[Cube]

Someone should make a "serious" video about how men are portrayed in Rom-Coms.

[MoogleViper]

Remind me to never support any of your business ventures. :p

 

Just because something is good business, that doesn't make it the right thing to do. If I started selling little dolls with blackface that were really popular with racists and made me hundreds of thousands of dollars, that wouldn't make it not racist or less morally bankrupt.

 

And rom-coms are sexist all around.

 

Capitalism isn't morally good.

[Magnus]

And people have a right to want better representation.

 

I mean, since we're just stating facts now...

[MoogleViper]

And people have a right to want better representation.

 

I mean, since we're just stating facts now...

 

But that's the point, this isn't about sexism, it's just how our society operates. If you want to change it, then we would have to re-establish our whole ideals, society and laws.

 

But of course, places like North Korea are unquestionably a "problem", so that's not gonna happen any time soon.

 

Keep voting in those Tories, people.

[Mr-Paul]

I think she makes some good points, but then I feel she often jumps to the wrong conclusions to suit her own agenda.

 

I know she is trying to take a critical stance, and I'm all for equality and better representation of women in all forms of media, but does Mario, a man, saving Princess Peach, a woman, seriously bother anyone?

 

I watched another video of hers where she was saying that Mariah Carey's "All I want for christmas is you" is sexist because it implies a woman has nothing better to do than long for a man to be with. I'm sorry, but aren't we allowed love songs any more? Views like that make it harder to take her good points seriously.