The Santa Fallacy and its Hazardous Effects on the Minds of Youth

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I'm probably unique in that I wasn't thinking Santa was magical, but that he had control over Space, Time and access to various means of pocketing things in another dimension.

 

I've always tried to apply scientific reasoning to things.

 

That's just awesome! Henceforth I shall picture Santa as a gift-giving superhero with interdimensional, spatial and temporal abilites.

[Diageo]

But your reasons for thinking it's bad for children to believe in these things still don't make sense. I've never seen any proof or indication that believing in Santa as a kid has any negative effects on you when you grow up.

First of all it was one of several reasons.

 

And second, you wouldn't see it because everyone believes in Santa, it's not like you have compared.

 

I wasn't angered or annoyed when I found out Santa wasn't real. It's not about finding out, I don't like the deception. You go out of your way to deceive the kids, you make it seem like he's real. You're tricking them, you may think it makes them happier, and it might, I just don't like it.

 

I wasn't traumatised by santa, I only started thinking about it recently. And found a theme, that parents use mythical beings to discipline, cheer up, etc. to their children. And I think it's pointless.

 

 

I'm probably unique in that I wasn't thinking Santa was magical, but that he had control over Space, Time and access to various means of pocketing things in another dimension.

 

I've always tried to apply scientific reasoning to things.

Isn't that Dialga?

[Cube]

I take it you're also completely against the idea of kids TV and shows like Power Rangers?

[Eenuh]

Imagining things and the imaginary/magical world are part of growing up as a kid though. It's a natural process they go through. When they're really young, they will let everything come to life with their imagination (things like plushies and bears being the most common things). Basically some form of animism, in which objects come to life and have a soul.

 

Believing in things like Santa, the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy and other creatures is just part of this. Children grow up by imagining things happening and pretending things are real when they're not. If you say Santa is bad, then so is about every kid's show and children's book out there, because they all have something in them that isn't real.

 

I mean, the Ninja Turtles? Dear god, talking ninja-fighting turtles, that's as far away from reality as you can get. But it's awesome! Denying children this sort of stuff is basically taking part of their childhood away.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

First of all it was one of several reasons.

 

And second, you wouldn't see it because everyone believes in Santa, it's not like you have compared.

 

I wasn't angered or annoyed when I found out Santa wasn't real. It's not about finding out, I don't like the deception. You go out of your way to deceive the kids, you make it seem like he's real. You're tricking them, you may think it makes them happier, and it might, I just don't like it.

 

I wasn't traumatised by santa, I only started thinking about it recently. And found a theme, that parents use mythical beings to discipline, cheer up, etc. to their children. And I think it's pointless.

 

 

 

Isn't that Dialga?

 

Well, that's your opinion, then, and you're entitled to it. But claiming that it has any negative effects is a pretty bold statement, especially when you don't have anything to support it with.

 

Also, I don't see why it's pointless. Nothing that can cheer people up and make them happy will ever be pointless in my eyes. Besides, do you expect children to be able to understand why something is right and something is wrong? Children need to learn about authority before they are mature enough to reason for themselves. Otherwise they become little brats with no respect for other people and an unhealthily high opinion of themselves. And Santa is a great authority figure because he is the embodiment of love and kindness, something which kids like and will want to respect.

[Serebii]

You mean Santa is a Time Lord?

 

Well the sack he puts the presents in has to be bigger on the inside...

 

That's just awesome! Henceforth I shall picture Santa as a gift-giving superhero with interdimensional, spatial and temporal abilites.

 

Good man

 

Isn't that Dialga?

 

Dialga, Palkia & Giratina combined perhaps

[Paj!]

And what about the "characters" at Disney world? (Very) Young children are told that the people in costumes "are the characters" - is that horrible deception too?

[Serebii]

And what about the "characters" at Disney world? (Very) Young children are told that the people in costumes "are the characters" - is that horrible deception too?

Even doing that could cause problems to kids. I knew the SciFi shows & films weren't real but they put the stuff in my head such as "If an asteroid pumping out shedloads of gamma radiation was to fly past the Earth and there WAS a way off of it, my family and I would never be chosen to get off it"

 

I had several sleepless nights when I was around 7 because of that.

 

The thing is, never take magic and wonder off of kids, and if they're smart enough to work it out at a younger age then for christ's sake, find something joyful to watch.

[Ganepark32]

I really don't see the problem with lying to kids at such a young age about things like Santa or the Easter Bunny or what have you. At such a young age, it's really the only way to get them into the spirit of things. Sure, you could pull back the curtains and just make it so that they know from the start that your getting them presents but its the mystical and mystery that the kids invest in and it in no way hurts to go along with it.

 

I've had the pleasure of watching my nephew (who'll be 5 in January) growing up in the same house and for him, the idea of Santa makes these holidays what they are and really, there's nothing better than seeing the smile on his face when he gets his gifts thinking that Santa has come and left them for him. It wouldn't be the same if he knew the reality because at such a young age, it stagnates the imagination and creativity.

[Diageo]

Santa Claus is an active deception, Teenage Mutant ninja turtles are not. When children watch TMNT they don't believe they are real, but they like imagining it.

 

You can show as many cartoon as you like but when you actively deceive them it's different.

 

And they don't need Santa as an authority figure, they have the parents. The parents should be the most important authority figure.

 

I'm not saying fiction is bad, stop making up arguments like I am.

 

I really don't see the problem with lying to kids at such a young age about things like Santa or the Easter Bunny or what have you. At such a young age, it's really the only way to get them into the spirit of things. Sure, you could pull back the curtains and just make it so that they know from the start that your getting them presents but its the mystical and mystery that the kids invest in and it in no way hurts to go along with it.

 

I've had the pleasure of watching my nephew (who'll be 5 in January) growing up in the same house and for him, the idea of Santa makes these holidays what they are and really, there's nothing better than seeing the smile on his face when he gets his gifts thinking that Santa has come and left them for him. It wouldn't be the same if he knew the reality because at such a young age, it stagnates the imagination and creativity.

Have you ever seen your nephew not believing in Santa, can you make a comparison that it would be different from just watching that?

[Eenuh]

Santa Claus is an active deception, Teenage Mutant ninja turtles are not. When children watch TMNT they don't believe they are real, but they like imagining it.

 

You can show as many cartoon as you like but when you actively deceive them it's different.

 

And they don't need Santa as an authority figure, they have the parents. The parents should be the most important authority figure.

 

I'm not saying fiction is bad, stop making up arguments like I am.

 

 

Have you ever seen your nephew not believing in Santa, can you make a comparison that it would be different from just watching that?

 

If it helps I never believed in Santa, 'cause we had someone else to believe in. Don't see how you can make a comparison about anything like that though.

[Serebii]

If it helps I never believed in Santa, 'cause we had someone else to believe in. Don't see how you can make a comparison about anything like that though.

Noel Edmonds, right? Much better than Santa Claus.

 

Although, the beard and the fact he gives Christmas Presents and joy to people every year around Christmas.

 

My god...

Edited December 20, 2010 by Serebii

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

And they don't need Santa as an authority figure, they have the parents. The parents should be the most important authority figure.

 

My biggest gripe with your arguments is that children don't need to believe in magic and that they'd somehow be better off if we didn't "deceive" them.

 

Sure, they don't need to believe in magic, but why would you take that pleasure away from them? Hell, most of what we as adults enjoy, we don't actually need. What's wrong with a little escapism, especially when you're a kid?

 

Sure, the parents are the most important authority figures, but it doesn't hurt to learn authority from an imaginary character, especially when that character is the perfect authority figure. Imagination is a great way to teach children about life exactly because it's more "perfect" than the real world and thus more suited for teaching principles.

[Eenuh]

Noel Edmonds, right? Much better than Santa Claus.

 

Although, the beard and the fact he gives Christmas Presents and joy to people every year around Christmas.

 

My god...

 

No idea who you are talking about. =P

[Eddage]

No idea who you are talking about. =P

 

You don't want to know...

[Diageo]

It could hurt, it could undermine the parent's authority. If Santa is a higher authority than the parents, and the kid believes he is being good, even when he isn't, that undermines the authority of the parents. Santa itself only gives presents to good children, so the children only want to do good because of presents, and when they do something bad, they feel scared to tell anyone, they don't want to lose the presents, they feel guilty but don't tell anyone. That's conditional love. Parents should give unconditional love, not conditional love.

 

Delusional thinking that makes people happy, you think that is all right. If you were going to lose your foot because of diabetes, would you like people to tell you? Or would you want to live in oblivious bliss?

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that Santa is a active deception. You are lying, you are making them believe in something that isn't real, instead of letting them imagine their own things. That's forcing an idea. You give false evidence for his existence, and the children believe you. I would rather not do that.

[Ramar]

It could hurt, it could undermine the parent's authority. If Santa is a higher authority than the parents, and the kid believes he is being good, even when he isn't, that undermines the authority of the parents. Santa itself only gives presents to good children, so the children only want to do good because of presents, and when they do something bad, they feel scared to tell anyone, they don't want to lose the presents, they feel guilty but don't tell anyone. That's conditional love. Parents should give unconditional love, not conditional love.

 

Delusional thinking that makes people happy, you think that is all right. If you were going to lose your foot because of diabetes, would you like people to tell you? Or would you want to live in oblivious bliss?

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that Santa is a active deception. You are lying, you are making them believe in something that isn't real, instead of letting them imagine their own things. That's forcing an idea. You give false evidence for his existence, and the children believe you. I would rather not do that.

 

Just to check you do know St. Nick was a real life gift-giving saint, right?

[Cube]

And what will you do when they ask you why Santa doesn't visit them? It's not really a choice for parents any more.

[Diageo]

Just to check you do know St. Nick was a real life gift-giving saint, right?

I don't see how that matters. Its origins aren't important, Santa is not St Nick. And I might have heard it before but I wouldn't actively think of it when thinking of Santa Claus.

 

 

And what will you do when they ask you why Santa doesn't visit them? It's not really a choice for parents any more.

 

Tell them we give the presents.

[Serebii]

And what will you do when they ask you why Santa doesn't visit them? It's not really a choice for parents any more.

"Santa doesn't visit you because you're an evil child"

 

Simple

[Ramar]

I don't see how that matters. Its origins aren't important, Santa is not St Nick. And I might have heard it before but I wouldn't actively think of it when thinking of Santa Claus.

 

Whilst the two aren't the same, one exists because of the other. Without St. Nick there would be no Santa, Saint Nicholas being a Christian Saint and stories of him being told at Christmas go back. I believe the word Santa Claus comes from Sinterklaas which is dutch for Saint Nicholas. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

 

So it's not all some fabricated rubbish, there is an element of truth to it all.

[Diageo]

An element of truth doesn't change anything. Children don't think about saints. They think about presents, they think about reindeer, and being good for santa and all that stuff films and any other media tell them.

[Ganepark32]

I don't see the reason for all the fuss, Diageo. It's not entirely a lie, as others have said, but there are other reasons behind it. As I said earlier, it helps to facilitate a creative and imaginative mind in kids, which is good developmental stimulation.

 

It also acts as a way of getting kids to understand what christmas is really about: family getting together and the exchange of gifts to one another. A child isn't going to be able to comprehend this at an early age. They won't. The idea of objectively looking at one's self and understanding other people's views or the interactions that happen at christmas are beyond a child. You won't see this kind of thing happen with a child until they are older and by having Santa at christmas, you introduce them to the idea of what the holiday is really about so when they realise Santa isn't real, they'll be able to continue on each year after as normal.

 

Yes it's a lie, but a child won't say "Oh, you lied to me for all these years. How could you?!?!" or hold it against his or her parents because they'll know that it was merely a medium used to teach them about this particular aspect of life.

 

============================

 

Anyway, I'm now in the christmas spirit. Definitely felt a little sanguine as a result of my exams but now they're finished, I've opened up a bit and started to enjoy the prospect of the family getting together. I feel I've bought the family good gifts this year (especially my mother who I've bought a scarf and a 2 set of vases) so I'm hoping everyone is happy with the thought I've put in. Never spent as much as I have this year, totalling well over £200.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

It could hurt, it could undermine the parent's authority. If Santa is a higher authority than the parents, and the kid believes he is being good, even when he isn't, that undermines the authority of the parents. Santa itself only gives presents to good children, so the children only want to do good because of presents, and when they do something bad, they feel scared to tell anyone, they don't want to lose the presents, they feel guilty but don't tell anyone. That's conditional love. Parents should give unconditional love, not conditional love.

 

Delusional thinking that makes people happy, you think that is all right. If you were going to lose your foot because of diabetes, would you like people to tell you? Or would you want to live in oblivious bliss?

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that Santa is a active deception. You are lying, you are making them believe in something that isn't real, instead of letting them imagine their own things. That's forcing an idea. You give false evidence for his existence, and the children believe you. I would rather not do that.

 

So you equate keeping the Santa Claus mythos alive to bad parenting? Come on, any parent can be a bad parent - that has nothing to do with Santa Claus. It's all about how you use the Santa story. And your previously used media argument is invalid since a lot of the stuff we get from the media is bad. There's where the parents have to properly raise their kids.

 

I don't see anything wrong, but a lot of good things about a little escapism. But the example with diabetes is over the top and irrelevant. This discussion was never about that. This is about letting children keep their innocent and imaginary outlook on the world. "Deception" carries connotations of bad intentions, but it's the complete opposite: Parents are playing along with the children's imaginations and thereby strengthening the childlike naïvety and innocent outlook on the world that a lot of adult could use some more of. Why do you reckon Forrest Gump is so popular? Because it provides us with this innocent naïvety that a lot of people have forgotten, but miss.

 

Also, most children's imaginations will be based around stuff they've seen or heard, anyway. I don't see a problem with them not having developed that idea themselves. The kids who have an imagination active enough to come up with original ideas will do so anyway. I don't see them becoming better at that with parents constantly reminding them to live in the real world instead of playing along with a classic and successful mythos.

[Diageo]

I don't see the reason for all the fuss, Diageo. It's not entirely a lie, as others have said, but there are other reasons behind it. As I said earlier, it helps to facilitate a creative and imaginative mind in kids, which is good developmental stimulation.

 

It also acts as a way of getting kids to understand what christmas is really about: family getting together and the exchange of gifts to one another. A child isn't going to be able to comprehend this at an early age. They won't. The idea of objectively looking at one's self and understanding other people's views or the interactions that happen at christmas are beyond a child. You won't see this kind of thing happen with a child until they are older and by having Santa at christmas, you introduce them to the idea of what the holiday is really about so when they realise Santa isn't real, they'll be able to continue on each year after as normal.

 

Yes it's a lie, but a child won't say "Oh, you lied to me for all these years. How could you?!?!" or hold it against his or her parents because they'll know that it was merely a medium used to teach them about this particular aspect of life.

 

============================

 

Anyway, I'm now in the christmas spirit. Definitely felt a little sanguine as a result of my exams but now they're finished, I've opened up a bit and started to enjoy the prospect of the family getting together. I feel I've bought the family good gifts this year (especially my mother who I've bought a scarf and a 2 set of vases) so I'm hoping everyone is happy with the thought I've put in. Never spent as much as I have this year, totalling well over

 

Santa has nothing to do with family, if anything Christmas is just about Santa. There are better ways to create an imaginative mind than Santa Claus.

 

Children don't need Santa on their birthday. But they are able to understand that it's about gift giving, and family interaction. The same on mother's day, and on children's day. They can understand the point of Halloween without a fictional figure. They can have fun on New Year's and understand it's a family celebration, they can understand to be thankful on Thanksgiving day. The only holidays with fictional characters are Christmas and Easter, and if others can work without them, so can Christmas.

 

I want to teach my kids about life differently, not by making them believe things and then say it's a learning experience.

 

I'm not making a fuss. People are directing their opinions towards me.