Trans

[Paj!]

On the other hand, for their own good, I do think "trans" people should seek psychiatric help. Is it attention-seeking? Is it a deep-rooted psychological issue? Some sort of rebellion?

 

I also think they should go to the doctor's and get their hormones checked. If a man is feminine, for example, a shot of testosterone might make him feel a lot better. It might make him feel like a man.

 

I'm not trying to be right-wing, but political correctness is not always useful. After all, a sex change would be a terrible thing to regret.

 

How controversial/old-fashioned.

 

They do make people live for 2 years as the sex they intend to change into without the surgery or legal identity changes, AFAIK. I think. It's not just instantaneous.

[Raining_again]

I can see Grazza's point about a sex change being something very serious, but you do know that no doctor in their right mind will ever even consider surgery as a first treatment? These folks have to go through years of hormone treatment and counselling before they are even considered for a sex change op...

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

My compassionate response is: each to his own. I don't expect everyone to be like me, or to understand everything in the world. On the other hand, for their own good, I do think "trans" people should seek psychiatric help. Is it attention-seeking? Is it a deep-rooted psychological issue? Some sort of rebellion?

 

I also think they should go to the doctor's and get their hormones checked. If a man is feminine, for example, a shot of testosterone might make him feel a lot better. It might make him feel like a man.

 

I'm not trying to be right-wing, but political correctness is not always useful. After all, a sex change would be a terrible thing to regret.

Why do you try to "explain" transsexuality as attention seeking, a psychological issue etc.? That seems pretty close-minded to me. Why do men need to be testosterone bombs? Aren't we past the stage where gender roles are necessary for the survival of our species?

[Grazza]

Why do you try to "explain" transsexuality as attention seeking, a psychological issue etc.?

 

Because I suspect some of it is. I have seen very feminine transsexuals who I quite believe genuinely feel like women. On the other hand, when I see a massive transvestite walk through a book shop, I feel it must partly be attention-seeking.

 

I just find it hard to understand how someone can have enough testosterone to get to 6'6" with broad shoulders and able to grow a beard, and yet feel like a woman. Like I say though, I don't have to understand everything. It's up to them.

 

That seems pretty close-minded to me. Why do men need to be testosterone bombs? Aren't we past the stage where gender roles are necessary for the survival of our species?

 

There's no should about it. Heck, I don't like cars or football. Gender roles don't mean much to me.

 

But like I say, if you have testicles, they do produce testosterone, which gives you your height, muscles, body hair etc. Believe me, I have every sympathy with men and women who have a hormone imbalance, especially those who are born with both genitals. This isn't a moral stance. It's not about disliking people.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Because I suspect some of it is. I have seen very feminine transsexuals who I quite believe genuinely feel like women. On the other hand, when I see a massive transvestite walk through a book shop, I feel it must partly be attention-seeking.

 

I just find it hard to understand how someone can have enough testosterone to get to 6'6" with broad shoulders and able to grow a beard, and yet feel like a woman. Like I say though, I don't have to understand everything. It's up to them.

 

 

 

There's no should about it. Heck, I don't like cars or football. Gender roles don't mean much to me.

 

But like I say, if you have testicles, they do produce testosterone, which gives you your height, muscles, body hair etc. Believe me, I have every sympathy with men and women who have a hormone imbalance, especially those who are born with both genitals. This isn't a moral stance. It's not about disliking people.

 

All right, it just came off a bit like that to me. Especially suspecting people of being attention seekers when your reasoning is that you find it hard to understand how it's possible. I wouldn't really judge people in that respect without having proper knowledge about the biology and psychology behind it.

 

But I completely understand your viewpoint. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if you were right. I think you just came off a bit judgemental.

[chairdriver]

To come to the conclusion that trans people are inherently attention-seeking is massively misguided.

 

You only have to look as far as Antony Heggarty. To me, he is the antithesis of attention-seeking; it's as though he doesn't like people looking at him.

 

 

 

To make such generalisations about people in such an off-handed way is very demeaning to them. They've spent the majority of their lives trying to work out how to live in harmony in our gender-centric society, and to swash their whole identity away is, frankly, an awful thing to do.

 

Have some empathy.

[Ville]

I just find it hard to understand how someone can have enough testosterone to get to 6'6" with broad shoulders and able to grow a beard, and yet feel like a woman. Like I say though, I don't have to understand everything. It's up to them.

 

But like I say, if you have testicles, they do produce testosterone, which gives you your height, muscles, body hair etc.

 

If you separate biological and psychological gender, I don't think there's a problem. I mean all the things you mentioned are just physical qualities...

[nightwolf]

To come to the conclusion that trans people are inherently attention-seeking is massively misguided.

 

You only have to look as far as Antony Heggarty. To me, he is the antithesis of attention-seeking; it's as though he doesn't like people looking at him.

 

 

 

To make such generalisations about people in such an off-handed way is very demeaning to them. They've spent the majority of their lives trying to work out how to live in harmony in our gender-centric society, and to swash their whole identity away is, frankly, an awful thing to do.

 

Have some empathy.

 

..and this isn't just one person either, I've met my fair share of trans and it's astounding the crap they have to go through just to feel normal, just because they feel somehow that they are the opposite gender.

 

To go through all the treatments to even get considered for a sex op is very very difficult, then there's the name changes, family dramas that can occur, being abandoned possibly by friends and family for what they feel.

 

I imagine anyone who is serious about a sex change isn't just doing it for attention.

[MoogleViper]

I don't agree with trans because I don't believe that all men are one way and all women are another. To say that you're a woman inside a mans body is saying that women obviously think a feel a certain way and men can't possibly think and feel that why. I'm a man because I have testicles, not because I like cars and football and beer. Just because a man may be like how society deems a woman to be it doesn't mean he's a woman trapped in a man's body, it means he's a man who acts a certain way.

[Grazza]

I don't agree with trans because I don't believe that all men are one way and all women are another. To say that you're a woman inside a mans body is saying that women obviously think a feel a certain way and men can't possibly think and feel that why. I'm a man because I have testicles, not because I like cars and football and beer. Just because a man may be like how society deems a woman to be it doesn't mean he's a woman trapped in a man's body, it means he's a man who acts a certain way.

 

Yes, exactly.

 

In a way, this is more modern thinking than believing you're the "wrong" gender. What exactly is this secret ingredient that makes you feel you're a certain gender?

[Paj!]

The fact society works in terms of fairly tight caricatures of the two genders?

 

You can't "not agree" with trans because they say they "feel like a woman", when it's society that creates and shapes the gender roles visually, (and influences them) psychologically and kinda...how they should act/be perceived. Not every trans person dresses like Rokhed - just look at that video of singer Antony Heggarty Chair posted. He's a man, who identifies as transgender (not transsexual). I've seen him in person, he's very androgynous, but occupies neither "gender role" visually. He wants to be known as she (apparently). That's how he feels, he clearly feels "wrong" were he to continue in the societal boundary of what makes a "man", and indentifies more with the feminine. The two concepts (masculine and feminine) exist, you can't just deny them.

 

Might have gone off track - basically you're "against" it because of the terminology used in the phrase "woman in a man's body"? No thanks.

 

I do understand what you're saying, but in the end, I'd rather people lived how they wanted without scrutiny from uninvolved parties. If a man like Rokhed WANTS to dress like a doll, let him. It makes him happy.

 

I can't even remember what my point was.

 

Pretty sure Chair talked about this earlier/another thread.

[MoogleViper]

The fact society works in terms of fairly tight caricatures of the two genders?

 

You can't "not agree" with trans because they say they "feel like a woman", when it's society that creates and shapes the gender roles visually, (and influences them) psychologically and kinda...how they should act/be perceived. Not every trans person dresses like Rokhed - just look at that video of singer Antony Heggarty Chair posted. He's a man, who identifies as transgender (not transsexual). I've seen him in person, he's very androgynous, but occupies neither "gender role" visually. He wants to be known as she (apparently). That's how he feels, he clearly feels "wrong" were he to continue in the societal boundary of what makes a "man", and indentifies more with the feminine. The two concepts (masculine and feminine) exist, you can't just deny them.

 

Might have gone off track - basically you're "against" it because of the terminology used in the phrase "woman in a man's body"? No thanks.

 

I do understand what you're saying, but in the end, I'd rather people lived how they wanted without scrutiny from uninvolved parties. If a man like Rokhed WANTS to dress like a doll, let him. It makes him happy.

 

I can't even remember what my point was.

 

Pretty sure Chair talked about this earlier/another thread.

 

I didn't say anything about stopping them. They can do what they want. It wouldn't bother me either way.

 

There's also the fact that I don't think a sex change actually makes you the opposite sex.

[Diageo]

I didn't say anything about stopping them. They can do what they want. It wouldn't bother me either way.

 

There's also the fact that I don't think a sex change actually makes you the opposite sex.

 

What makes you the opposite sex then?

[MoogleViper]

What makes you the opposite sex then?

 

Being born the opposite sex.

[Diageo]

Why does birth dictate sex, why can't the individual?

[MoogleViper]

Why does birth dictate sex, why can't the individual?

 

Because some things aren't possible.

[Emasher]

In reality, a person's sex is all really about reproduction roles. Not how they act, or anything like that. It wouldn't really work that well if the child carriers were the hunters and warriors, so we evolved a certain way to make men more efficient at those things, and women more efficient at caring for children ect. Because of civilization we're advancing faster than we can evolve, so while those roles are becoming largely irrelevant in our society, we still fit into them biologically. Because its all just about reproduction, until we can develop artificial gonads, a man is still someone with testicles, and a woman is still someone with ovaries. How we act is determined by our epigenome and our experiences in life (especially early on). If someone thinks that they'd feel better if they looked like, and had the artificial hormones of the other sex, I see no reason why we should stop them from having a sex change operation any more than we should stop someone from doing anything else that doesn't interfere with the rights of someone else. Your body is yours to do whatever you want with.

 

At the same time, while you have every right to do so, you really shouldn't be a dick to someone about what they choose to do with their body. You don't owe them anything, even empathy, but perhaps try and think of how they were treated just because they wanted to do something to their body that wouldn't harm anyone else.

[Diageo]

A man is only a man if he has testicles, what if he loses them in a mine explosion, is he no longer a man?

[Emasher]

Genetically yes, functionally no.

 

If said person can't reproduce, I don't really think gender is that relevant. It purely becomes a social thing at that point.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Emasher

[chairdriver]

Was walking back to my flat, and this song came on shuffle. Had to turn around and go back to college specifically to post in this thread (I left my laptop in the library), because it made such a mark on me.

 

(Not sure the audio is good, because this uni computer I'm on is fucked up)

[Paj!]

It fucking starts two lines in. Ruins the effect. /It's the same.

 

Great song though.

[Ashley]

Genetically yes, functionally no.

 

If said person can't reproduce, I don't really think gender is that relevant. It purely becomes a social thing at that point.

 

Wow. Way to kick baron people when they're down. (

)

[Paj!]

baron people

 

 

Barren

 

[Ashley]

He could be a barren baron named Baron!

[Diageo]

He could be a barren baron named Baron!

It wouldn't be a he if it was barren apparently.