Can one person make a difference?

[Sheikah]

Heh, now that's a pretty pessimistic stance...It's not pointless at all.

 

 

 

Interesting to hear about the drug testing...However, your logic here does not add up. I mean if you eat meat and use animal-tested products, you support and create suffering via two means. However, if you renounce meat yet continue with animal-tested products, surely you create LESS suffering than in the previous case.

 

What I mean is that it's complete counter-balancing. On the one hand he proposes veganism, and on the other buying/receiving a car. I know that his car is far more damaging to the environment than his small token gesture of not eating meat. Therefore, he's actually more polluting than me.

 

Secondly, there's countless ways you can help the environment without sacrificing your own well-being. And yes, vegans commonly suffer nutritional deficiencies such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium deficiencies. Yes, you could make a very good diet plan and take supplements but it's still no secret that many vegans suffer from such deficiences. Locally source your food and your impact on the environment is probably minimal; far better than limiting your choice of food (surely one of the nicer things in life) and potentially risking your wellbeing.

 

 

With regards to animal ethics; he must have eaten enough animals in his lifetime to surely be burdened with animal sacrifice. Not saying you can't make a difference, but it's kind of like well and truly having your 5,000 cakes and eating them.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Sheikah

[Ashley]

No what you're saying is "I don't think its going to amount to anything so don't have any moral convictions or stand points, just plod through life without trying to do anything like Homer Simpson"

 

[Sheikah]

No what you're saying is "I don't think its going to amount to anything so don't have any moral convictions or stand points, just plod through life without trying to do anything like Homer Simpson"

 

We're doomed, it's true. Population will continue to increase, resources will be consumed and the environment polluted. It's absolutely inevitable. The annoying thing is that we in the UK are just a mere blip in terms of contribution to the crisis; blame China, etc. People don't like to hear it, but none can contest it.

 

Technically, preserving the planet for longer is evil. More people will be alive further down the line, thus more people die! Think of it that way. The Sheikah philosophy. :p

[Ashley]

Where would the world be if we subscribed to the "the future is bleak, let's give up now" philosophy? All long dead. So what if the outlook is bleak, to not strive would make us nothing more than passive baboons.

[Sheikah]

Where would the world be if we subscribed to the "the future is bleak, let's give up now" philosophy? All long dead. So what if the outlook is bleak, to not strive would make us nothing more than passive baboons.

"The future is doomed, so chill out and live life to the max." - The uber philosophy. We really are prolonging the inevitable. I'm not saying we should go out and burn huge chunks of coal, but limiting ourselves in such minor ways will not make the slightest shred of difference compared to the output of superpowers such as China. Which answers the topic title kind of nicely. I don't find meaning in striving for a hopeless task; I could really be enjoying myself in what limited lifespan we have.

 

 

I've been called pessimistic, but I'm easily one of the most content and happy people I know. I don't fear the fact that humanity is, at some point or other, doomed. Just accept it and chillax. Our planet cannot possibly sustain us the way we are going, and unless we suddenly stop reproducing, it's not going any other way. I'd say the people living in fear are those persistent on worrying about the environment and trying to exact change.

[Cube]

The world ain't going nowhere (does that even make sense?), and we'll discover a more sustainable energy source as soon as current supplies get so bad that the governments can't profit from them without causing mass riots.

 

Fusion could be good if we pull it off, and the only side effect is that everyone would eventually talk with really high-pitched voices.

[Tissue Town]

One person cannot really make all the difference. I mean what context is this?

Let's simply look at the cosmically galactic bigger picture. We are a tiny rock in the vast nothingness of space. Floating in isolation, only warmed by a petty young star that is growing by the day. Soon this world will be engulfed by our sun and all our hopes and dreams will be burnt to a cinder. Unless we colonise other habitable planets, then this will be our fate. But then, when we look at the even bigger picture, nothing lasts for long and our universe as we currently know it will cease to exist and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

So no. One person cannot make all the difference.

[Ashley]

"The future is doomed, so chill out and live life to the max." - The uber philosophy. We really are prolonging the inevitable. I'm not saying we should go out and burn huge chunks of coal, but limiting ourselves in such minor ways will not make the slightest shred of difference compared to the output of superpowers such as China. Which answers the topic title kind of nicely. I don't find meaning in striving for a hopeless task; I could really be enjoying myself in what limited lifespan we have.

 

 

I've been called pessimistic, but I'm easily one of the most content and happy people I know. I don't fear the fact that humanity is, at some point or other, doomed. Just accept it and chillax. Our planet cannot possibly sustain us the way we are going, and unless we suddenly stop reproducing, it's not going any other way. I'd say the people living in fear are those persistent on worrying about the environment and trying to exact change.

 

Looter.

 

(this requires context but whatever)

 

One person cannot really make all the difference. I mean what context is this?

Let's simply look at the cosmically galactic bigger picture. We are a tiny rock in the vast nothingness of space. Floating in isolation, only warmed by a petty young star that is growing by the day. Soon this world will be engulfed by our sun and all our hopes and dreams will be burnt to a cinder. Unless we colonise other habitable planets, then this will be our fate. But then, when we look at the even bigger picture, nothing lasts for long and our universe as we currently know it will cease to exist and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

So no. One person cannot make all the difference.

 

The question wasn't "can one person make all the difference?", but rather "can one person make a difference?" Nicktendo is striving to make a difference in his own life, his own manner of existence for his own satisfaction. Yes, he hopes that it will make a difference in the world and whether it will be is arguable but to say he should just roll over and do fuck all because it may not make a difference...as I said earlier where would be now if apathy like this was so widespread, if we all said "things probably won't get better so L.G. FUAD?"

[Aimless]

If we've learnt anything from this thread it's that you don't want to be stuck with Sheikah or Tissue Town should you happen to get caught up in a disaster situation. They'll probably just keel over on the spot and waste away.

[Sheikah]

Why is that? Like if my house was in fire I'd sit there and allow myself to die?

 

I'm all for self-preservation. But small long-term efforts to save the planet by any one of us (like not eating meat) is absolutely futile. Sorry.

 

The question wasn't "can one person make all the difference?", but rather "can one person make a difference?" Nicktendo is striving to make a difference in his own life, his own manner of existence for his own satisfaction. Yes, he hopes that it will make a difference in the world and whether it will be is arguable but to say he should just roll over and do fuck all because it may not make a difference...as I said earlier where would be now if apathy like this was so widespread, if we all said "things probably won't get better so L.G. FUAD?"

I'm pretty sure he was asking whether he could make a difference to the environmental situation (which is most certainly not, if you read difference as 'even a slither of difference on the grand scale of things'). This statement backs that up:

 

So I suppose now, to actually make the difference at a national scale I have to join Labour and make them socialist again, or join the Green party and try and convince the public that they are not doped up hippies...

Edited August 28, 2010 by Sheikah

[Ville]

What I mean is that it's complete counter-balancing. On the one hand he proposes veganism, and on the other buying/receiving a car. I know that his car is far more damaging to the environment than his small token gesture of not eating meat. Therefore, he's actually more polluting than me.

 

But what is the ethical value here? The life of animals vs. damaging the environment...can you measure which counts more? In any case, changing your habits is a process, so any improvement is still good...for some it's easier to give up meat, for some to sell their car.

 

Secondly, there's countless ways you can help the environment without sacrificing your own well-being. And yes, vegans commonly suffer nutritional deficiencies such as vitamin B12, iron and calcium deficiencies. Yes, you could make a very good diet plan and take supplements but it's still no secret that many vegans suffer from such deficiences. Locally source your food and your impact on the environment is probably minimal; far better than limiting your choice of food (surely one of the nicer things in life) and potentially risking your wellbeing.

 

Heh, it's true that a vegan diet can be more challenging from a nutritional viewpoint. However, it's no different from a meat eater's diet in the sense that both can be executed well or poorly. Just an issue of personal responsibility, or the lack thereof...

 

With regards to animal ethics; he must have eaten enough animals in his lifetime to surely be burdened with animal sacrifice. Not saying you can't make a difference, but it's kind of like well and truly having your 5,000 cakes and eating them.

 

Sorry, I didn't understand this...sarcasm?

 

but limiting ourselves in such minor ways will not make the slightest shred of difference compared to the output of superpowers such as China. Which answers the topic title kind of nicely. I don't find meaning in striving for a hopeless task; I could really be enjoying myself in what limited lifespan we have.

 

It's not about comparisons, but attitude...Your view on the environment and other beings is reflected in everything you do...so it also affects other people, which in turn affect more and more people. Thus even with little things you have the potential to change yourselves and others, ultimately even on a very large scale...For example, should the UK eventually become a model country for environmental and animal right issues, it would have a much greater potential to influence other countries like China...

 

About the limited lifespan...how do you know that it's all over after you die? I mean, you could be reborn and end up in the very same mess you just declared hopeless

 

I'd say the people living in fear are those persistent on worrying about the environment and trying to exact change.

 

I agree, fear and stress are not the answers...Just do what you can.

 

as I said earlier where would be now if apathy like this was so widespread, if we all said "things probably won't get better so L.G. FUAD?"

 

Indeed. In the words of Peppy Hare...Never. Give. Up. ;D

[Sheikah]

But what is the ethical value here? The life of animals vs. damaging the environment...can you measure which counts more? In any case, changing your habits is a process, so any improvement is still good...for some it's easier to give up meat, for some to sell their car.

 

This is kind of the problem. You might try to do one thing, but at the end of the day, other things you're doing pretty much fully consume what little effect you're trying to have in a positive way, and then some. You really can't win at this game. Supposing you were the most ethical person ever, living in a hovel constructed of tin cans. You'd have sacrificed fuck loads of stuff and be miserable, yet your petty contribution won't make a difference since: a) You can't actually cause significant numbers to follow you, at least not numbers that would have any sizeable difference and b) there's countries completely masking your contribution with their output.

 

It's all well saying that it makes you feel good, but really I think that's a bit smug. Kind of like people who drive hybrid cars. You might be trying to save the planet, but you're not, and that's a shame.

 

 

 

Heh, it's true that a vegan diet can be more challenging from a nutritional viewpoint. However, it's no different from a meat eater's diet in the sense that both can be executed well or poorly. Just an issue of personal responsibility, or the lack thereof...

 

It needs supplements really. Any diet that needs supplements is therefore a bad diet, as supplements aren't a diet. They're essentially corrections of a bad diet.

 

 

 

 

About the limited lifespan...how do you know that it's all over after you die? I mean, you could be reborn and end up in the very same mess you just declared hopeless

 

Very true, but we're going in the direction and we can only slow it. Slowing it actually invokes the chance of more people being around to witness the doom event, whichever way you look at it.

[Ville]

Supposing you were the most ethical person ever, living in a hovel constructed of tin cans. You'd have sacrificed fuck loads of stuff and be miserable

 

No need for self-torture...

 

a) You can't actually cause significant numbers to follow you, at least not numbers that would have any sizeable difference

 

You can't really know unless you try...all you can do is change YOURSELF. Others might follow or not, but at least the potential is there...No try, no potential, no results.

 

b) there's countries completely masking your contribution with their output.

 

Yeah, the scale of these issues can be disheartening...However, no need to worry about changing the world at an instant, since that is very unlikely to happen. Change is gradual and will take a long time...but it is a possibility. Different countries are at different stages, but still constantly evolving...One generation affects the next etc, so any potential change can actually be multiplied as the years go by...

 

Still, a contribution is a contribution, no matter where it's done...after all, we all live in the same world. If you really want to change China, go ahead, but there are people there already working on that...just don't expect it to happen instantly. Might as well just work on your own life...nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's all well saying that it makes you feel good, but really I think that's a bit smug.

 

Heh, it's still more enjoyable than wallowing in total indifference and the "we're all doomed"-mindset. And if you're able to change something in your life, even just a little thing, why not rejoice about it? At least you're trying...

 

It needs supplements really. Any diet that needs supplements is therefore a bad diet, as supplements aren't a diet. They're essentially corrections of a bad diet.

 

I agree, I'm not a fan of supplements either...however, weighed against animal slaughter and suffering, it's a compromise I'm willing to make.

 

Very true, but we're going in the direction and we can only slow it. Slowing it actually invokes the chance of more people being around to witness the doom event, whichever way you look at it.

 

No need to give up so easily...like Cube said earlier, if we can pull off more sustainable energy sources, who knows what course this planet will take...Even with such "coarse" technology as we currently possess, science and the world have undergone some major revolutions in a very short time...

 

In regard to there being less people suffering...How do you know what happens to all those people / beings who were "saved" from our "doomed" planet? They could be born somewhere else in the universe, and in even worse conditions...

Edited August 28, 2010 by Ville

[Sheikah]

Heh, it's still more enjoyable than wallowing in total indifference and the "we're all doomed"-mindset. And if you're able to change something in your life, even just a little thing, why not rejoice about it? At least you're trying...

 

Actually, I don't think it is. I think having the honest and 'switched-on' mindset is best, because I don't fool myself. I liken it to religion; by not believing in God, I'm essentially denying myself of heaven, and happiness in the afterlife. By your remark that would mean I'm wallowing in a bad mindset. But it's quite the opposite; I feel empowered, knowing that there are sheep in the world who are sacrificing pleasures, happiness and vastly devoting their lives to something I am certain is nonsense. Just like here; I can live my life quite happily, not thinking the planet must be saved and it's all going to hell. I know it is, but that's a given since civilisation is always going to go that way. Just take the good with the bad and live life.

 

In regard to there being less people suffering...How do you know what happens to all those people / beings who were "saved" from our "doomed" planet? They could be born somewhere else in the universe, and in even worse conditions...

 

That would be impossible...every atom that constitutes you would remain at least in this solar system. What I mean is, for you to be part of something else, parts of you have to be around.

 

Unless you believe in God, but then if you're born somewhere else in the universe what does it matter what happens to Earth? :p

[Ashley]

I'm pretty sure he was asking whether he could make a difference to the environmental situation (which is most certainly not, if you read difference as 'even a slither of difference on the grand scale of things'). This statement backs that up:

 

Well it depends if you believe that the combination of individual differences can amount to larger changes. As a society we have generally started to recycle more in the last 50 years, and this has made a difference. Whose to say Nicktendo isn't at the forefront of some greater changes that we'll see (not saying he's a revolutionary, but possibly a member of the 'starting point').

 

Of course you're more pessimistic than a 1940's fictional gumshoe so there's no point in arguing with you

[Sheikah]

 

Of course you're more pessimistic than a 1940's fictional gumshoe so there's no point in arguing with you

I'm not, I embrace life and look forward to my future. Going to London and living it large.

 

I just don't have any belief in the future of people who I'll never see and who aren't me.

[Ashley]

I'm currently reading Rand and even I think that's just teen bullshit.

[Sheikah]

Think what is teen bullshit?

[Eenuh]

Just wondering Sheikah, but do you wish to have children someday?

 

If so, would you want your children (and their children etc.) to end up in a world which you think is already doomed anyway? Your viewpoint is a bit selfish I think, in that you only seem to care about your life now, and not the lives of people who are coming after you. So you think it's okay to fuck up the world and not try to save it, simply because you won't be here anymore to witness it all? =/

 

 

If your stance is that "one person changing their lifestyle doesn't help a thing", then the same could be said about, for example, people trying to help the poor/the sick/the starving people in third world countries. It is pointless, because according to you it won't change a thing in the grand scheme... But it is helping those few people live a better life, and that's worth enough.

[Sheikah]

Just wondering Sheikah, but do you wish to have children someday?

 

If so, would you want your children (and their children etc.) to end up in a world which you think is already doomed anyway? Your viewpoint is a bit selfish I think, in that you only seem to care about your life now, and not the lives of people who are coming after you. So you think it's okay to fuck up the world and not try to save it, simply because you won't be here anymore to witness it all? =/

 

Like I said, I'm just realistic; the world will fuck up, regardless of how I, or you, act. I just don't like to be ignorant and think that we can all make a difference when really, we are most definitely overpopulating the planet and whatever measures are brought in, population booms and emerging powers will mean the net change is negative. By 2050 the global population is expected to rise to 9 billion. Now, unless we're really clever I don't see us turning it around within a reasonable time frame.

 

But really, you don't see me littering, I do recycle with our recycling bins, etc. Not because I believe that we can change the future course of humanity but because I'm not a scruffy bastard, and would never pass that on to my children.

 

 

If your stance is that "one person changing their lifestyle doesn't help a thing", then the same could be said about, for example, people trying to help the poor/the sick/the starving people in third world countries. It is pointless, because according to you it won't change a thing in the grand scheme... But it is helping those few people live a better life, and that's worth enough.

 

Soothing pain and heartbreak is different to having knowledge that our environmental efforts are masked by an emerging superpower and population growth.

Edited August 28, 2010 by Sheikah

[Ville]

Actually, I don't think it is. I think having the honest and 'switched-on' mindset is best, because I don't fool myself.

 

You know, this is exactly what I thought when my mind was still entreched in pessimist thinking ruts...that I was just being honest and realistic. However, realism and truthfulness mean acknowledging ALL possibilities, both negative and positive...

 

I liken it to religion; by not believing in God, I'm essentially denying myself of heaven, and happiness in the afterlife. By your remark that would mean I'm wallowing in a bad mindset. But it's quite the opposite; I feel empowered, knowing that there are sheep in the world who are sacrificing pleasures, happiness and vastly devoting their lives to something I am certain is nonsense.

 

Well, it's good to hear you're enjoying life. You might see us as sheep, but that's just a different viewpoint...and ok too. For me, there's nothing to lose in trying to change things, no matter how small...all progress is good. Also, I see happiness coming from the inside, not the outside...thus less need to hold onto to things.

 

not thinking the planet must be saved and it's all going to hell. I know it is, but that's a given since civilisation is always going to go that way.

 

You mean think, right? ;D

 

That would be impossible...every atom that constitutes you would remain at least in this solar system. What I mean is, for you to be part of something else, parts of you have to be around.

 

Unless you believe in God, but then if you're born somewhere else in the universe what does it matter what happens to Earth? :p

 

Heh, the structure of a conciousness isn't very clear to current science, now is it...making it rather hard to pinpoint what is "possible" after death or not...

[ipaul]

I'm not, I embrace life and look forward to my future. Going to London and living it large.

 

I just don't have any belief in the future of people who I'll never see and who aren't me.

 

I'm currently reading Rand and even I think that's just teen bullshit.

 

Think what is teen bullshit?

 

I think this is what Ashley means...

 

 

 

That said I'm pretty sure Sheikah isn't some kind of Objectivist, just an untroubled Malthusian.

Edited August 28, 2010 by ipaul

[Sheikah]

You mean think, right? ;D

 

Everything will expire when the universe does. Thus, know. :p

 

 

Heh, the structure of a conciousness isn't very clear to current science, now is it...making it rather hard to pinpoint what is "possible" after death or not...

One thing we know for certain is that consciousness is a result of an active brain. When you're unconscious the brain is less active, and we can actively induce unconsciousness. A brain itself is composed of atoms; although we don't know how every cell in your body contributes to consciousness, it's pretty much certainly due to arrangements of atoms rather than magic. Also when a mother is pregnant, a baby is literally synthesised from atoms derived from the mother, so we know that in order to create life one must have atoms actually in the vicinity of where the life is being made.

 

So the whole 'we might be born in another galaxy' thing seems completely contrived. Unless the atoms that compose you can...shift, like in star trek.

[Ville]

Everything will expire when the universe does. Thus, know. :p

 

Still, you don't know if everything will be a constant downward spiral, that is just your assumption...Also, if the universe ends, what happens after that? If the universe can appear and disappear...then surely something similar can happen again.

 

One thing we know for certain is that consciousness is a result of an active brain.

 

Actually, not true...studies conducted by hospitals indicate that even clinically dead people can have lucid near-death or out-of-body experiences. This reinforces the notion that consciousness might not be limited to a functioning brain, but might also exist independently...Similar to the experiences of seasoned meditators, who report being able to remain totally conscious even after their senses have shut down in deep meditation...

Edited August 29, 2010 by Ville

[The fish]

Like I said, I'm just realistic; the world will fuck up, regardless of how I, or you, act. I just don't like to be ignorant and think that we can all make a difference when really, we are most definitely overpopulating the planet and whatever measures are brought in, population booms and emerging powers will mean the net change is negative. By 2050 the global population is expected to rise to 9 billion. Now, unless we're really clever I don't see us turning it around within a reasonable time frame.

 

Mmm...hot, sexy Malthusian pessimism...