European Elections

[ipaul]

I'm am so sick of hearing all this 'people who oppose the BNP are anti democratic' BS. No we're not, we just think it's a bit tragic that people should choose to elect them and that it is good to take a stand against such things. I thought the egging thing was quite funny and not thuggish, they were eggs for god sake. If it had been bricks then they would have been morons but you know. I'll bet they were free range as well

[navarre]

On watching the Russell Brand thing, and seeing some of the BNP people's opinions, they were saying the white race is becoming extinct. I am curious how this is happening, are white people going to be forbidden to have sex?

 

I think they mean by interracial sex, but the only real difference between white and black people is melanin. Eventually, even if white people were to become extinct, black people would probably turn white again- that's how the white race came about, anyways. I'm in an interracial relationship and do hope to have mixed race kids. The BNP sees this as the destruction of an entire timeline in the family tree- it's prehistoric views like that which will ensure they never get my vote.

 

I'm sure that racism, sexism, homophobia, religious intolerance and many other form of discrimination are banned somewhere in the British constitution (I know there isn't an actual constitution).

 

Homophobic discrimination isn't, I'm afraid. The Liberal Democrats are pushing for it to be made illegal. They're also vouching for a written British constitution.

 

I would argue with that. If you asian and had qualifications either equal or slightly bellow a white /christian applicant the asian is far more likely to get the job.

 

That is true, including in the Met Police. Postive discrimination is just as bad as any other form of discrimination. I'd like to think that employers see behind skin colour or sexuality or gender, whether that person be in a majority or a minority.

 

Oh noes, someone threw an egg at a politician. Why can't they play nice like the far right on their peaceful "March for England", where they attacked police and, smashed up asian-owned shops and kicked fuck out of anyone who looked slightly dusky?

 

At least it was a white egg. It's got Nick Griffins approval.

[Gizmo]

It's not the act of throwing the egg that is anti-democratic. It's people believing they have the right to censor the BNP. Often the same people who would go on to complain about censoring of other things.

 

Example: Gay marriage. Haggis (sorry to single you out, it's just an example) was complaining in the sexuality thread about California banning gay marriage. "Who's right is it to say two men cant get married?" etc. While anti-gay marriage say "How can they get away with same sex marriage?". But now, Haggis is on the other side of the fence. "How can they get away with having these views?" etc. Meanwhile BNP supporters are saying "Who's right is it to say that we shouldn't be elected if we fairly win a democratic election?" Same thing, different side. There is no "right" and "wrong" with this stuff. There is "politically correct" and otherwise, which is what many people have been forcefed so much that they come to think as "right and wrong". But it is not like that.

 

That is not to say I support the BNP or sympathise with their policies. I only maintain their right to have these views, and to stand for election and win an election if done democratically, in the same way as I support those rights for every other person.

[MoogleViper]

I'm am so sick of hearing all this 'people who oppose the BNP are anti democratic' BS. No we're not, we just think it's a bit tragic that people should choose to elect them and that it is good to take a stand against such things. I thought the egging thing was quite funny and not thuggish, they were eggs for god sake. If it had been bricks then they would have been morons but you know. I'll bet they were free range as well

 

Nobody is saying that. But when people say things like "The BNP should be banned" etc. then they are being anti-democratic. If they don't agree with them then fair enough, but that doesn't mean they can censor them.

[BlueStar]

i can't see anyone here saying they should be banned. Some people seem to think "Free Speech" means people have the right to be horrible disgusting bigots but then people don't have the right to call them horrible disgusting bigots.

[MoogleViper]

i can't see anyone here saying they should be banned. Some people seem to think "Free Speech" means people have the right to be horrible disgusting bigots but then people don't have the right to call them horrible disgusting bigots.

 

Well then it's always going to exist, until it isn't acceptable, as it is according to you. And having groups like the BNP spout shit about it constantly is something that really should be banned.

 

I'm sure others have said it as well.

[BlueStar]

Do people not have the right to say it should be banned then? If a party that wants to ban the BNP is democratically elected should they be banned from banning them?

[MoogleViper]

Do people not have the right to say it should be banned then? If a party that wants to ban the BNP is democratically elected should they be banned from banning them?

 

But then isn't it possible for a democratically elected party to do away with the democracy and make Britain a dictatorship?

 

I'm pretty sure that there are certain things that politicians aren't allowed to do.

[BlueStar]

But then isn't it possible for a democratically elected party to do away with the democracy and make Britain a dictatorship?

 

I'm pretty sure that there are certain things that politicians aren't allowed to do.

 

There are already Islamist political groups which are banned in the UK, including Al-Ghurabaa and the "Saved Sect". If the BNP were in power, I've little doubt that list would be extended, almost certainly to Hizb ut Tahrir who have been on the brink of being outlawed for the past few years. So if you're not allowed to want to ban the BNP, are the BNP not allowed to want to ban other groups and parties? If so, how come the BNP can push to ban things, but people against the BNP can't push to ban them? If not, are you not just as guilty of fighting against "free speech" and "democracy" by suggesting the BNP should not be allowed to campaign on whichever policies they please?

Edited June 10, 2009 by BlueStar

[navarre]

There are already Islamist political groups which are banned in the UK, including Al-Ghurabaa and the "Saved Sect". If the BNP were in power, I've little doubt that list would be extended, almost certainly to Hizb ut Tahrir who have been on the brink of being outlawed for the past few years. So if you're not allowed to want to ban the BNP, are the BNP not allowed to want to ban other groups and parties? If so, how come the BNP can push to ban things, but people against the BNP can't push to ban them? If not, are you not just as guilty of fighting against "free speech" and "democracy" by suggesting the BNP should not be allowed to campaign on whichever policies they please?

 

 

Those aren't parties; they're groups.

[danny]

I'm am so sick of hearing all this 'people who oppose the BNP are anti democratic' BS. No we're not, we just think it's a bit tragic that people should choose to elect them and that it is good to take a stand against such things. I thought the egging thing was quite funny and not thuggish, they were eggs for god sake. If it had been bricks then they would have been morons but you know. I'll bet they were free range as well

So if i just took a stroll down the street throwing eggs at any black or asian people i came across i could just claim it was funny and not thuggish?

[Dan_Dare]

Throwing stuff on politicians is a long standing national passtime.

 

But hey, I'm not entirely sure we need to defend protests against nazis. I was under the impression they were generally considered Bad People.

[BlueStar]

Those aren't parties; they're groups.

 

So if they entered a candidate into an election would they become unbanned?

[Haden]

Throwing stuff on politicians is a long standing national passtime.

 

But hey, I'm not entirely sure we need to defend protests against nazis. I was under the impression they were generally considered Bad People.

 

Its counter-productive and undermines democracy. The people who do it by the sounds of it are a right bunch of extremists themselves. They accused Searchlight magazine (an anti fascist magazine) of being "Zionists" I am very surprised so many MPs are associated with this group.

[danny]

So if they entered a candidate into an election would they become unbanned?

 

Arnt these groups linked directly to hate and terror. The BNP although its members may be linked to these things. The party itself dosent promote them openly. Even if it is just by clever wording. So they arnt the same.

 

Throwing stuff on politicians is a long standing national passtime.

 

But hey, I'm not entirely sure we need to defend protests against nazis. I was under the impression they were generally considered Bad People.

 

So what are you saying we should only defend protests against selected more favourable groups? Free speach for all... but only if your views are zanu labour, lib dems, green hell half the people on here probably think of the torys as some sort of fascists.

[Dan_Dare]

No. My point is that all protests are well and good. Protest is an essential part of the political process- and a citizen's right to conduct one is one of the best things about this country.

[BlueStar]

Arnt these groups linked directly to hate and terror. The BNP although its members may be linked to these things. The party itself dosent promote them openly. Even if it is just by clever wording. So they arnt the same.

 

That's pretty much exactly what most political wings of militants do though - Sinn Fein through the troubles and the political section of the National Front, even when it was pretty much a political front for the likes of Combat 18. You rarely get organised groups operating in England which explicitly condone violence, even if they clearly support the perpetrators through their wording.

[danny]

But that still dosent make these partys the same as the groups that have been named. Hence why some are banned and others arnt.

Partys cant be banned for things they believe in. I wish they could be i would be well in favour of zanu labour being on that list. But the system dosent work like that thank god.

[Dan_Dare]

It makes them worse, really.

 

The BNP are sly fuckers. They have an ex NF Holocaust denier as their leader, yet here we are, debating if they're all that bad afterall. It's their lies and doublespeak that gives them a platform from which they can exploit and scare people in to voting for them.

 

They're fascists. Racist, homophobic, ignorant thugs who would like nothing more than to deport, imprison or god knows what else anyone on the basis of skin colour, creed or sexuality. That's the truth, yet only a couple of weeks ago danny you were professing you would vote for them.

[danny]

It makes them worse, really.

 

The BNP are sly fuckers. They have an ex NF Holocaust denier as their leader, yet here we are, debating if they're all that bad afterall. It's their lies and doublespeak that gives them a platform from which they can exploit and scare people in to voting for them.

 

They're fascists. Racist, homophobic, ignorant thugs who would like nothing more than to deport, imprison or god knows what else anyone on the basis of skin colour, creed or sexuality. That's the truth, yet only a couple of weeks ago danny you were professing you would vote for them.

 

No that i might vote for them. And if they hadnt made the comments about Gurkhas and johnson beharry VC i probably still would. Not that i would really want to see them in power just as the ultimate protest vote.

 

Take a look at the groups that are banned and see what some of them have done. If you still think they are genuinly worse then you need to lay off the drugs.

[Nicktendo]

Not that i would really want to see them in power just as the ultimate protest vote.

 

Not really a protest vote though is it? Not voting would be a protest. Voting for the a bunch of racists would simply display complete ignorance and idiocy. You know what they stand for and yet you still 'would have' voted for them. Anyone who had any issue with the BNP's core values not just the stuff you mentioned above, would NEVER vote for them no matter what the state of politics was and consequnetially you've just proven yourself to be a racist by saying you would support them (agree with them) as a protest.

 

Please forgive me if I disregard or ignore anything else you add to this discussion. By all means say what you want but please don't expect me to read it. I don't have time for people who think in that way.

 

Take a look at the groups that are banned and see what some of them have done. If you still think they are genuinly worse then you need to lay off the drugs.

 

I don't think it's far from the truth to say the BNP are one of the most evil 'groups' that inhabit this earth. I think the things they have said and what many of their members and representatives have done in the past is sickening. The fact that some of them openly support Adolf Hitler and the destruction of the Jews says enough. They feed off of the fears and insecurities of vulnerable people to spread they're political bollocks and want to sepearate the country by skin colour. All of this is hidden behind deceptive language and smart suits.

 

Danny, I think it's fair to say some of the things your are saying are really showing a great deal of ignorance and you're beginning to annoy me with some of the provacative things you are saying. Telling forum members to lay off the drugs, as you did to me in another thread 2 weeks ago is just stupid. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion but just because the majority doesn;t agree with you doesn't mean we're all on drugs. Stop dragging the topic down and dishing out insults.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Nicktendo
Automerged Doublepost

[danny]

Not really a protest vote though is it? Not voting would be a protest. Voting for the a bunch of racists would simply display complete ignorance and idiocy. You know what they stand for and yet you still 'would have' voted for them. Anyone who had any issue with the BNP's core values not just the stuff you mentioned above, would NEVER vote for them no matter what the state of politics was and consequnetially you've just proven yourself to be a racist by saying you would support them (agree with them) as a protest.

 

Please forgive me if I disregard or ignore anything else you add to this discussion. By all means say what you want but please don't expect me to read it. I don't have time for people who think in that way.

 

Your an idiot. just because i dont like the fact that the labour govenment have tottaly obliterated Britishness in the last 12 years and i feel this is wrong, Im labeled a racist.

I work closely everyday with people from nepal, south africa, ghana and fiji. I dont see them any differently to the british people i work with. I dont find myself loathing them or making fun of them, or wanting to attack them.

But i do think that the labour govenment have ruined this country and run it in to the ground. I dont agree with immagration policys in this country (so i must be a racist) and im not sure any other party truely understands how the general british working man feels in britain today.

So yes it would be a protest vote. Not voting would simply imply that i coudnt be arsed to vote like the rest of the country.

[Nicktendo]

You're an idiot.

...

 

just because i dont like the fact that the labour govenment have tottaly obliterated Britishness in the last 12 years and i feel this is wrong,

How have they done it? Don't just say it. Explain how they've done it... Even when only a few months ago Gordon Brown drafted plans to intorduce a 'British Day'

 

I'm labeled a racist.

Supporting the BNP, when you know what they stand for means you are a racist.

 

 

I work closely everyday with people from nepal, south africa, ghana and fiji. I dont see them any differently to the british people i work with. I dont find myself loathing them or making fun of them, or wanting to attack them.

Nobody here once suggested that you wanted to. Being a racist doesn't automatically mean you are violent. You know that voting for the BNP would see them sent away, yet that doesn't matter to you. You would still vote for the BNP, so obviously you have very little regard for these people.

 

But i do think that the labour govenment have ruined this country and run it in to the ground.

Financially they have, yes. I think you'll find though that the fact people can't get jobs is due to corporations breaking employment laws and the diabolical state of the economy not because Labour have 'opened the floodgates' as the BNP profess.

 

I dont agree with immagration policys in this country (so i must be a racist)

This statement shows your ignorance. Just because you don't agree with the immigration laws doesn't mean you're a racist and I never suggested that's why I thought you were...

 

Britain is one of the most difficult countries in the Western world to get into with many people (especially workers) needing to apply months in advance and even often getting rejected. While this applies to non-EU nations, the EU workers and immigration laws are extremely lax across the whole of Europe, not just the UK. It just happens to be that the UK is one of the most attractive and lucrative places to come (as I mentioned the illegal nature of the way many corporations operate in this country make getting a job for migrant workers much, much easier).

 

It's important for Britain to harbour Asylum Seekers as they are escaping the most unimaginable circumstances, yet maybe this could be regulated better and refugees distibuted evenly between all EU nation states and the US.

 

Just because the tabliod news papers or your TV channels say immigrtion is out of control doesn't mean it is. All forms of media have political agenda's. Especially outlets like The Sun, The Star and the Daily Mail. They often exaggerate stories or publish outright lies to sell more copies and create a culture of fear.

 

 

and im not sure any other party truely understands how the general british working man feels in britain today.

There are numerous political parties that represent the working man. One such party is the Socialist Labour Party which is fronted by Arthur Scargill. If you do a little research you will find a party which represents the working man (which let's face it, is the majority of the country). Just because the BNP claim this, do you not think it may be to hide some of their lies and appeal to a broader spectrum?

 

So yes it would be a protest vote. Not voting would simply imply that i coudnt be arsed to vote like the rest of the country.

While apathy is major issue, which I hope isn't repeated as severly at the generals, voting for a racist party is never a suitable protest. Like I said above, do some research and find a party that represents your beliefs and if you still conclue the BNP is the best, then it looks like you are indeed a racist, sir. Edited June 11, 2009 by Nicktendo

[navarre]

...

 

 

How have they done it? Don't just say it. Explain how they've done it... Even when only a few months ago Gordan Brown drafted plans to intorduce a 'British Day'

 

Please could you provide a link to this? I'd love that- a chance to show the world, that *awesome quote* 'out of many, we are one'.

[Nicktendo]

Please could you provide a link to this? I'd love that- a chance to show the world, that *awesome quote* 'out of many, we are one'.

 

I can't find anything recent where Gordon proposed it but here's something from last week on what the SNP think... lol.

 

[url=]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7433479.stm[/url]

 

Minister Liam Byrne has been accused by the SNP of a "glaring gaffe" over his choice of date for a "British day".

 

Mr Byrne was due to call for the "August bank holiday" to be made a weekend of national celebration in a speech to a New Labour think tank.

 

But he back-pedalled after the SNP pointed out that the August holiday is on a different date in Scotland to what it is in England and Wales.

 

Mr Byrne said he had just been trying to "get the debate started".

 

In the text of the immigration minister's speech to the Progress think tank, released in advance to the media, Mr Byrne said there was public support for a British day but disagreement over when it should be held.

 

"I myself have become convinced that the August Bank Holiday weekend - what some have called 'the great British weekend' - has the virtue of being in the summer, and already being a bank holiday," the text said.

 

Support 'evaporates'

 

The speech and accompanying press release were seized on as a "blunder" by the SNP, with the party accusing Mr Byrne's plans of falling "at the first hurdle".

 

The August bank holiday is at the start of the month in Scotland and at the end of it in England and Wales, the party pointed out.

 

"That glaring gaffe aside, Liam Byrne's proposal has nothing to do with Britishness, and everything to do with bolstering Gordon Brown as Labour's support evaporates in swing English regions," said Angus Robertson, leader of the SNP at Westminster.

 

"Labour's cack-handed attempts to resuscitate a British 'national' identity are just desperate, motivated by self interest rather than national interest."

 

But Mr Byrne defended his call for a national day "towards the end of August" in an interview with BBC Radio 4's PM programme.

 

'Really caught on'

 

He denied excluding Scotland from the proposed celebrations, saying: "All I am trying to do in this speech that I am making a little bit later on is actually get this debate started.

 

"I don't think there is any real consensus in Britain at the moment about when the right day is but actually I think it's a good idea - because actually I think people are looking for an opportunity, permission if you like, just to celebrate the things that they like about living in Britain.

 

"I think it should be in the summer towards the end of August."

 

He stopped short of suggesting the English and Welsh bank holiday should be extended to cover Scotland as well.

 

"There is a different question about whether the country needs another day off. All I'm saying is that I think a day towards the end of August might actually be a good idea.

 

"It could well be that there is an argument for extending a national bank holiday, that is something the government is still thinking about."

 

'British tapestry'

 

Mr Byrne said the idea of a national British day had "really caught on" in consultations he had held with voters.

 

In his speech, he will argue that it should combine national and local events to give people the opportunity to celebrate "the best of being British" and "showcase all the colours of the British tapestry".

 

But an aide suggested he may change the text to say that the final Monday in August was the best choice as it was already a bank holiday "in some parts of the UK".

 

Mr Byrne's proposals have also come under fire from the trade unions, who are campaigning for a new bank holiday in October.

 

The TUC said a day of national celebration was a "great idea" - but a spokesman said it risked being rejected if it was held on an existing public holiday.

 

"It is a great idea to have a day celebrating Britishness, but it would be a shame that millions of people will potentially miss out as they will already have made plans to take part in other events.

 

"We think it would be a lot more effective if they introduced a new bank holiday.

 

"People already have an idea what the August Bank Holiday means - it is the Notting Hill Carnival, or the music festivals."

 

He called on the government to be "a bit more ambitious and bring in a new bank holiday that everyone can enjoy".

 

The TUC is campaigning for a new bank holiday in late October, to break the run of 16 weeks without a holiday between August and Christmas.

 

The spokesman said Britain had the second lowest number of public holidays in Europe - and he rejected claims by the Confederation of British Industry that a new holiday would cost £6bn in lost production.

 

As an advanced industrial nation, Britain could "easily afford it" and it would generate income for many firms, he argued.