MoogleViper Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 How do I tie this in? How about Nina Simone has better music than the Bieber, in my opinion. Fixed for you.
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 Who would think Justin Bieber would spark up an interesting debate, eh Dannyboy? :p
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Who would think Justin Bieber would spark up an interesting debate, eh Dannyboy? :p I'm not surprised, actually. Bieber has become such an icon, for better or for worse, that an interesting discussion was bound to come out of it.
Frank Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) Fixed for you. I was being cautious as I didn't want people shouting at me that Bieber is so much better :p This is actually a really interesting debate. What makes good music? What decides that one piece of music is better than another? Is it down to technical thing? Is it solely a matter of taste? as unfortunate as it sounds, it really depends on the listener. Although one piece of music should be considered much better than another, I think it comes to how the listener is affected by it. Such as someone may be more emotionally connected to something like the Crazy Frog song than something like the anti-racism songs that Billie Holiday sang. It's a little mental but that's people for you. Edited October 3, 2010 by Frank
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 I think good music, is music I like. And to me that's enough. So yes, I would listen to Bieber over Mozart and to me Bieber is better than Mozart. I guess I have no culture or taste though so it doesn't matter.
Paj! Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I just hate your terminology for things you like being the word "good". I've quite enjoyed lots of songs by Ke$ha, but I wouldn't consider them good. I like lots of songs by Katy Perry, but they aren't very good music. I think Get Sexy by The Sugababes is a musical abomination, but I've found myself enjoying the beat/bits of it in a club setting before. I liked it. Doesn't make it good. I fucking LOVE Miley Cyrus' last album - but it's nothing special or original or anything. That's how I see things. Anyway, we all have personal scales of what we consider good and bad music, and the debate of subjectivity versus objectivity always ends in contradiction so I'd rather not have to think about it/get into it.
Jonnas Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 If you seriously believe the quality of all music is completely subjective, I really can't begin to reason with you. Music quality is defined by people's taste. Mozart being a better musician than Justin Bieber is still an opinion, it doesn't matter how many people tell you this, it doesn't matter if they're respected individuals, friends or whatever. It's an opinion, and someone will disagree with you. It is subjective. As for the topic at hand, I am indifferent towards Bieber. I heard of him mainly thanks to those who hate him, so I guess they are secretly fans trying to spread the word through the powerful publicity machine of Internet Memes.
Raining_again Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I just hate your terminology for things you like being the word "good". Compared to his, your terminology is about as clear as mud...
Jonnas Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 This is actually a really interesting debate. What makes good music? What decides that one piece of music is better than another? Is it down to technical thing? Is it solely a matter of taste? Even technical differences are down to taste. There are those who'll rave on about "8-bit goodness", despite the fact that they're mostly beeps and bops. Nostalgia speaks there, but do motives really matter?
Paj! Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I mean - Someone saying, "I love Ke$ha and her music! So do millions of other people. Therefore she and her music are good." He doesn't even mean that, but his use of the word good just makes what he tries to say make no sense. Which I'm sure I've suffered from too as this pointless debate has gone on.
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 Compared to his, your terminology is about as clear as mud... It seems I've ran out of thanks. This has never happened before. But thank you Raining. Love you.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Music quality is defined by people's taste. Mozart being a better musician than Justin Bieber is still an opinion, it doesn't matter how many people tell you this, it doesn't matter if they're respected individuals, friends or whatever. It's an opinion, and someone will disagree with you. It is subjective. This is actually a very precise wording of my opinion on the subject matter.
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 I mean - Someone saying, "I love Ke$ha and her music! So do millions of other people. Therefore she and her music are good." He doesn't even mean that, but his use of the word good just makes what he tries to say make no sense. Which I'm sure I've suffered from too as this pointless debate has gone on. Sure they do. If someone loves a piece of music, then it makes it good.
Jonnas Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I mean - Someone saying, "I love Ke$ha and her music! So do millions of other people. Therefore she and her music are good." He doesn't even mean that, but his use of the word good just makes what he tries to say make no sense. Which I'm sure I've suffered from too as this pointless debate has gone on. Then what is your definition of "good"? You haven't answered that yet. My personal definition of "good" is "I like it, and I think most other people I know would, too". If I like it, but others don't, I call it "personal preference". If I like it, and it flies in the face of everything I usually like, it's a "Guilty Pleasure" So, what's your definition of good, anyway?
Paj! Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 Sure they do. If someone loves a piece of music, then it makes it good. mmmmmmkay
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (6 members and 1 guests) Diageo, Happenstance, Jonnas, Mundi, Paj Meen Ah, Raining_again Look at the interest we've attracted to a Justin Bieber thread.
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I'd argue that the words "good" and "bad" are in their very nature subjective.
Raining_again Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 "good" is never going to be a word that can be used as, or associated with, fact. You can argue and reason all you want but its only ever going to be based on opinion. Just cause one says that such and such is good, it doesn't make their opinion invalid, nor is it fair to say that they are wrong. It's not that insulting for someone to think bieber is good... Just sayin.
Frank Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 You know, all this talk about Justin Bieber made me think... I've actually never heard any of his songs and I honestly don't know any of them :S The only song that I know is the chorus to "baby, baby, baby oooh!" and that's it :p
Paj! Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 "good" is never going to be a word that can be used as, or associated with, fact. That is what's annoying me in the first place. Or I think it was. I can't even remember. Then what is your definition of "good"? You haven't answered that yet. My personal definition of "good" is "I like it, and I think most other people I know would, too". If I like it, but others don't, I call it "personal preference". If I like it, and it flies in the face of everything I usually like, it's a "Guilty Pleasure" So, what's your definition of good, anyway? Again, I didn't start off argueing with Diageo about the subjectivity/objectivity debate...mainly because I have little to no view on it. I just have my own way of listening to and appreciating music, so there's no point trying to tell people how to do that themselves (and you shouldn't). I know that "Go Long" by Joanna Newsom is a better song than "U Smile" by Justin Beiber. HOWEVER I can completely understand if people prefer to listen to "U Smile", as J.Newsom has a very divisive voice, musical style, Beiber's song is shorter, catchier etc. I'm 100% there's a better heavy-metal song than the r.n.b song "Your Love" by Nicki Minaj, but I personally don't really enjoy metal in general. I DONT even want to argue about this, It's not something I have a real opinion on, or was even talking about. I just hated the way Diageo phrased something. It's a contradictory arguement, but it's just how I think. It's not winnable, nor..should it be (or am I trying to). It's not even an arguement. That's why it's "clear as mud" - I'm being pulled into a debate Chair started. The end. Dead. I'm not trying to convince of anything other than what R_A just posted. I should've just said that. "good" is never going to be a word that can be used as, or associated with, fact. "good" is never going to be a word that can be used as, or associated with, fact. "good" is never going to be a word that can be used as, or associated with, fact.
Jonnas Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I just hated the way Diageo phrased something. It's a contradictory arguement, but it's just how I think. It's not winnable, nor..should it be (or am I trying to). It's not even an arguement. That's why it's "clear as mud" - I'm being pulled into a debate Chair started. Hmm... You are correct. chairdriver was the one who stated the whole "music quality can't be subjective" thing. Sorry, the two of you are easily interchangeable.
Diageo Posted October 3, 2010 Author Posted October 3, 2010 The two don't go hand in hand. To think they did is silly. This comment roped you into the argument. I said I disagreed. If he sells records then that means people like his music, and if people like his music then he is good. Unless they bought his music out of spite or something, but then he is still good, albeit at selling records to people who buy it out of spite.
Paj! Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) Fucking bury me. I have never in my life seen the word "good" used in such a way. I don't know how else to respond. You're equating sales with quality and worth. I think this is silly and not what one does. And the opinion that if someone likes something, it is "good"? WTF is this. (To go to the extreme...) People "liked" Hitler in Nazi Germany in WWII. Someone likes putting kittens in bins, then it's good? Um. The end. Leave me alone. I don't care. Edited October 3, 2010 by Paj!
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted October 3, 2010 Posted October 3, 2010 I know that "Go Long" by Joanna Newsom is a better song than "U Smile" by Justin Beiber. I'm not trying to convince of anything other than what R_A just posted. I should've just said that. ...? Does not compute.
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