Justin Bieber vs. the World, Hitler and Puberty

[Paj!]

I wish I was dead.

 

I hate the word good, okay?

 

I happen to believe in an element of objectivity in music. However, I DONT GIVE A FUCK. Anyone can think about music how they want. I alreayd said I didn't know what I was talking about, it was people bombarding me with stuff they meant for chair, that I was responding to wrongly.

 

And I said it was a contradiction. I just think like I do. People are religious. I have to deal with it.

[Diageo]

Fucking bury me.

 

I have never in my life seen the word "good" used in such a way. I don't know how else to respond.

 

You're equating sales with quality and worth. I think this is silly and not what one does. And the opinion that if someone likes something, it is "good"? WTF is this. (To go to the extreme...) People "liked" Hitler in Nazi Germany in WWII. Someone likes putting kittens in bins, then it's good? Um.

 

The end.

 

Leave me alone. I don't care.

 

Your putting "good" to use in its moral sense which is not the use we are using.

 

Although yes you could argue it as good. Hitler was good at killing jews, and to the people who liked him, he was doing a good thing. Also I can't really apply it to the bin thing because I'm not sure what you are referring to as good there. The person probably does think it's a good thing if they like doing it.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Hey, relax, it's not a third degree interrogation or anything. You know how we are on N-E. We get ... passionate when debating.

 

Anyway, I completely understand your point and opinion. I'll leave you alone now. :p

[Paj!]

They like doing it because it's wrong.

 

Like a kinky, secretive fetish.

 

Now what?

 

Also, I know that the moral sense of the word good didn't apply, I just couldn't think of an appropriate example, and Hitler always works as an extreme example of something.

[Diageo]

Isn't there a rule that if you use Hitler in a forum conversation you immediately lose?

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

A beautiful example of reductio ad Hitlerum.

[MoogleViper]

Isn't there a rule that if you use Hitler in a forum conversation you immediately lose?

 

Godwin's law. And that's not the rule. It's that as an internet discussion gets longer, the probability of hitler or nazis being mentioned approaches 1.

[Frank]

Let's just all take a breather!

 

 

Enjoy the music, man, and live and let live...

Edited October 3, 2010 by Frank

[Paj!]

Isn't there a rule that if you use Hitler in a forum conversation you immediately lose?

 

 

I'm going to send you a bag of shit in the mail.

 

Just to reiterate.

 

 

Also, just incase - I have nothing against you. You're just bizarre. And like to push buttons. But then so do I. Lozzle.

[Ashley]

Isn't there a rule that if you use Hitler in a forum conversation you immediately lose?

 

No.

 

[Diageo]

Just to reiterate.

 

 

Also, just incase - I have nothing against you. You're just bizarre. And like to push buttons. But then so do I. Lozzle.

I have nothing against you either. I also love the curious fact I unconsciously call you a she. It's quite amusing.

[Paj!]

I do actually really hate it. Genuine annoyance.

 

But whatever. I just think it's rude.

[Diageo]

No.

 

That is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.

Who is Hitler meant to be, Odwin?

 

I do actually really hate it. Genuine annoyance.

 

But whatever. I just think it's rude.

I really am sorry, I genuinely don't want to do it.

I would edit it away but I can't in mafias. I don't seem to do it outside mafia games at least.

 

Godwin's law. And that's not the rule. It's that as an internet discussion gets longer, the probability of hitler or nazis being mentioned approaches 1.

Well it worked.

[Paj!]

That is the most amazing thing I've ever seen.

Who is Hitler meant to be, Odwin?

 

 

It was before your time. It's meant to an old mod/admin/whatever called Jordan.

[Diageo]

I feel so excluded now.

It was before your time. It's meant to an old mod/admin/whatever called Jordan.

 

 

On a side note, loving the new thread title.

[Ashley]

It was before your time. It's meant to an old mod/admin/whatever called Jordan.

 

I'm a little annoyed. I mean come on...evil overlord...come on.

[Paj!]

I'm a little annoyed. I mean come on...evil overlord...come on.

 

You play up to the title though, and I never know why. You're so vulnerable inside. You're like a crab.

[Diageo]

Godwin's law. And that's not the rule. It's that as an internet discussion gets longer, the probability of hitler or nazis being mentioned approaches 1.

 

Wiki also says:

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[3] than others.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's law. It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized corollary that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful.[7]

[chairdriver]

I just find it mildly/vaguely irritating/offensive that you'd categorise Justin fricking Bieber alongside artists I'd, and most critics would, describe as "good" like, say, Jenny Lewis, Regina Spektor and Bon Iver -- by no means my favourites nor earth-shaking, but all leagues more accomplished and credible (and objectively more talented) than Bieber.

[Diageo]

I find it amusing this annoys you.

[chairdriver]

I find it amusing this annoys you.

 

I'm passionate about music.

[Diageo]

So what's your definition of good music?

[Slaggis]

I'm hardly a fan, but I'm sure somewhere I read a post saying he was a "shit" singer. In terms of his actual voice, that's far from the truth. Saw some video's of him a few years back when he was just known on You-tube, and he could sing damn well. (Technically, at least).

[chairdriver]

So what's your definition of good music?

 

Kind of a massive question, so any answer I could give is no doubt going to be somewhat flawed. But I'll Hit You With My Best Shot:

 

I'd say a quality of good music is that it forces you to care about the artist in question. In a positive way. Good music often challenges. Often it just is.

 

 

I believe there is such thing as an X-Factor; a determinant which objectively makes music good. Technical talent goes a long way in making music good, but it can only take you so far -- there's something that separates Laura Marling from Sandi Thom. They both play the guitar as well as each other, but there's something that makes Laura Marling appear in the "I feel belittled by her greatness" category in my head, where Sandi falls into the "meh" category. Laura is objectively better.

 

But then, this X-Factor is hardly a discrete thing. It's not about a binary of good or bad, or X-Factor or no X-Factor. There's a scale of X-Factor-havingness. So maybe the above paragraph is misleading?

 

You couldn't really measure all music in comparison to what makes Laura great. Her wise-beyond-her-years lyrics certainly factor in; compare to Bjork's childlike and simplistic lyrics. I'd probably place Bjork above Marling when push comes to shove.

 

Maybe its a society-driven thing? Society tells us that things which are inspired and things which are creative and society tells us things which are innovative are good. Society tells us things which challenge are good. [Or at least cultured society does -- shit society tells us to like Ne-Yo, because only ArtFags listen to other stuff.]

 

In the same way that society tells us what gender is. That a man can't like pink. That a man can't cry at a movie. That a woman must be good at sewing. At the heart of it all, everything is built upon the biology of the XY and the XX chromosomes. Its so ground into us that our sexual characteristics must govern action and thought that few question it - perhaps gender is fluid, and the standard gender roles we stick to are contrived?

 

But then, men are stronger -- better at fending off lions. Better at reading maps. Women are better at looking after children. So maybe that last sentiment is false, and gender roles are wholly natural?

 

And at the heart of it all, the qualities generally acknowledged re: good music are ultimately built upon the fact our brain likes certain combinations of certain soundwaves. Some sound waves sound better. Some combinations sound better. Some artists are better at using them.

 

But then, to take this line of thought too far to heart disregards the human emotion present in music. The human involvement. All the satisfaction and juissance which comes from this inexplicable X-Factor.

 

Writing it off as subjectivity disregards the power music has to influence and effect. To say the fact I genuinely cried when I first heard Kate Bush's This Woman's Work with real ears is a product of subjectivity discredits her extraordinary accomplishment in engaging with her audience. I'd sooner judge a person by their reaction to that song than I would that song by the reaction it has on people. If you dared to even entertain the idea that U Smile is a better song than This Woman's Work, I'd think worse of you from that day onwards.

 

It's hard to come up with defined reasons why I think music being totally subjective is a fallacy. Maybe I think it's objective, within a communally-agreed-upon set of rules, which are really, underneath it all, subjective. 90% of the world believes gender is binary, and there is nothing between man and woman, but 10% have divorced themselves from that concept. We've agreed subjectively that x,y,z makes music good, and once that is set in stone, things become objective.

 

I care about these things. You don't have to care -- just be aware that I'll think you're nothin'/nuttin' for having shit taste that reeks of unawaredness. If you engage yourself in music properly, you'll grow out of it, I promise.

 

 

tldr: I'm a Rambling Man. With lots of pretension. Because really the truth is Too Far Deep, and I'm pretending I can delve and dive so far. JUST LISTEN TO THIS, AND BATHE:

 

Oh, AND, gays, gender/trans, boring outrage (which I wish was bored outrage) etc etc. The usual.

Edited October 4, 2010 by chairdriver

[Nolan]

I'm certainly late to the party, but I completely get what your were getting at Paj(much clearer than mud to me). I absolutely love The Violent Femmes, but getting right down to it, the music isn't good. It's abrasive erratic and at times poorly written, but it all comes together in the most enjoyable way.

 

A different example without using Hitler would be the Earth Defense Force games, bad games when compared to common standards, and if Halo or CoD did some things like EDF they'd be slated for it. EDF however, is just bad enough to be hilariously fun. Thousands (since I doubt it sold millions) of people love it, mainly because it's bad.

 

B-Movies also fall into this trope. Although, I do think music gets a bit of a free pass on this. I don't encounter music of that type as often as I do other mediums, so I'd guess that most people buying Bieber quantify his music as their definition of good. So in a sense with music, popularity="good".

 

 

Eventually his voice will drop though and his music will no longer be "good". :p