Caris Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Quick question for anyone with either console and play through a 1080p TV. If you have the console set to 1080p and you play a older game that doesn't support 1080p does the game come through at 1080i or 720p? Is there any way to make sure they come though at 720p not 1080i? Sorry for putting the thread here, I just need the answer in the next hour or so. Thanks.
Aimless Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 To the best of my knowledge the 360 scales all games to 1080p — it's handled by a dedicated bit of hardware so doesn't affect performance — whereas PS3 games will default to outputting a 720p signal. If you deselect 720p as a supported resolution in the XMB then the PlayStation 3 will output in one of the modes that is supported, although I think the selection differs on a per game basis — Killzone 2 and Assassin's Creed 2 support special 1080p modes, not every game supports 1080i, etcetera. Basically the 360 shouldn't be an issue and for the PS3 you can just deselect 1080i in the display settings.
... Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 I have a 1080p LCD and have my 360 set on 720p because that's the native resolution of most games. Some games are even below that, like the Modern Warfare games, they both run at 640p or something like that, not even 720p. There should be a database online about which games are in what resolution. A few can be found, but they're rare and not complete.
Caris Posted December 19, 2009 Author Posted December 19, 2009 @ Aimless, 360 upscales some games, launch games such as Kameo don't upscale they just support 720p @ ... I'm aware of native resolutions etc including your COD example but you should really have your console set a 1080p. It will look much better trust me.
Dante Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Thinking of buying 1080p HDTV Caris? Stupid brother wont let me used the new family tv.
... Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 I've had it on 1080p before, things just looked smaller. And since I found out the games weren't really 1080p, I changed it. But I remembered now, the REAL reason I changed the console settings to 720p was to eliminate the awful screen tearing of RE5. It's impossible to play RE5 in 1080p, unless you have the console connected by DVI, which eliminates all screen tearing. However, if you put the game running at 720p, screen tearing disapears. Then, since most games are 720p or below anyway, I never bothered to change the settings back to 1080p.
Choze Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 No there is no dedicated hardware in the 360 or PS3 for scaling, it is all done by the GPU. adding extra load. There is a performance cost of 1-2 % frames usually for using 1080p for a 720p game. So you get even more screen tearing or framerate flaws than in 720p. Its best to let your tv do it as there is no peformance or quality loss going from 720p to 1080p. Sony have handled this correctly. PS3 owners dont have to worry about this.
Cube Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 No there is no dedicated hardware in the 360 or PS3 for scaling, it is all done by the GPU. Erm...one of the reasons for the E73 error on the 360 was the dedicated upscaling chip failing...
Nolan Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 No there is no dedicated hardware in the 360 or PS3 for scaling, it is all done by the GPU. adding extra load. There is a performance cost of 1-2 % frames usually for using 1080p for a 720p game. So you get even more screen tearing or framerate flaws than in 720p. Its best to let your tv do it as there is no peformance or quality loss going from 720p to 1080p. Sony have handled this correctly. PS3 owners dont have to worry about this. Actually, the quality of the console upscaling will blow away the quality of the TV upscaling. TV upscalers are quite often terrible. Which, is why you want to have your console set as close to the native resolution as possible. Many 720p TVs are really 1366x768, so setting it to that is recommended. I've heard you can do it with HDMI now, but before on the 360 only the VGA cable allowed for that.
Emasher Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 I've had it on 1080p before, things just looked smaller. And since I found out the games weren't really 1080p, I changed it. But I remembered now, the REAL reason I changed the console settings to 720p was to eliminate the awful screen tearing of RE5. It's impossible to play RE5 in 1080p, unless you have the console connected by DVI, which eliminates all screen tearing. However, if you put the game running at 720p, screen tearing disapears. Then, since most games are 720p or below anyway, I never bothered to change the settings back to 1080p. Why not just buy a DVI/HDMI cable? They're only like $10 online. Or are you on an older TV?
Choze Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) Erm...one of the reasons for the E73 error on the 360 was the dedicated upscaling chip failing... There is absolutely no scaling chip in the 360. E73 google search reveals is an ethernet port issue. Actually, the quality of the console upscaling will blow away the quality of the TV upscaling. TV upscalers are quite often terrible. Quite the opposite. You lose 1-3 frames a game by outputting a 720p game in 1080p via console. As someone pointed out with RE5 on 360. Any Tv will do a better job than a console. Technically if you have a 1080p tv you do get a 1080p image at the end no matter what anyway. So forcing 1080p on a console is not smart just to get 1080p in the info label. Edited December 20, 2009 by Choze
Nolan Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 Choze....it must be nice to live in your own little delusions.
Choze Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 Choze....it must be nice to live in your own little delusions. Its fine you can go force 1080p on games that were not designed for it and lose afew frames. Its not my loss.
Emasher Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 As someone pointed out with RE5 on 360. Any Tv will do a better job than a console. Technically if you have a 1080p tv you do get a 1080p image at the end no matter what anyway. So forcing 1080p on a console is not smart just to get 1080p in the info label. You seriously don't know what you're talking about. Yes, TVs have upscalers, but there are very few TVs that are able to upscale an image better than a console/Blu-ray player/ect, if any. The image will still look like a 720p/480p image, it just won't be quite as pixilated. And the 360 does have a dedicated scaler chip, its called Ana, and its error E74 that is associated with it, not 73.
Cube Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 And the 360 does have a dedicated scaler chip, its called Ana, and its error E74 that is associated with it, not 73. Yea, that one. Small typo there on my part.
Choze Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 You seriously don't know what you're talking about. Yes, TVs have upscalers, but there are very few TVs that are able to upscale an image better than a console/Blu-ray player/ect, if any. The image will still look like a 720p/480p image, it just won't be quite as pixilated. And the 360 does have a dedicated scaler chip, its called Ana, and its error E74 that is associated with it, not 73. E74 is the video output chip error. Eurogamer on the elite: The only other major change under the bonnet is the new HANA video display chip, replacing the old ANA version in the classic 360. This chip has erroneously been described as the silicon that deals with the 360's inbuilt hardware scaling. In truth, Microsoft has now confirmed to us that it's merely a video output chip - a means of transferring the framebuffer into all of the different signals: composite, s-video, RGB SCART, component, VGA and - the key addition with HANA - HDMI. Scaling itself is actually performed by the Xenos GPU (most likely using a variation of Lanczos resizing) so in that respect the Elite performs identically to the original Xbox 360. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/hardware-test-xbox-360-elite-review?page=2 The word scaler is used in low end products as they do just that, scaling to other resolutions and nothing else. You are not going to get a better picture or anything with the word scaler. When you mention Blu Ray players upscaling, they do alot more than just upscaling. Upscaling is just rendering the same picture in a higher resolution. Nothing else. No enhancements or anything. Which is one good reason to not worry about scaling. The other is doing the same process on consoles involves a prformance cost. Which is why TVs are always better as you are offloading that cost. Some games like RE5are affected by this. So far its pretty much just snake oil, like DigitalVHS back in the day. The way people got all excited about upscaling dvd players and freeview etc. is amusing.
Emasher Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 The Video Chip in some of the older 360 model (ANA) was a Scaler. The one in the elite (HANA) is not. The article you quoted mentions that the Elite's performance is identical though, where are you getting the statistic of loosing a few frames per second, you might be right, in the case of the elite model, but otherwise, the 360 did have a dedicated scaler chip. E74 would refer to HANA on the elite, as both ANA and HANA were video output chips. Obviously most of the DVD players that say 1080p upscaling on the box are nearly a scam, as they do very little, but most upscalers (though the ones in TVs don't usually) do more than just changing the resolution, although, you are right in the sense that the word scaler just refers to the changing of the resolution. But most TV upscalers aren't much better than those on DVD players anyway.
Choze Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 The Video Chip in some of the older 360 model (ANA) was a Scaler. The one in the elite (HANA) is not. The article you quoted mentions that the Elite's performance is identical though, where are you getting the statistic of loosing a few frames per second, you might be right, in the case of the elite model, but otherwise, the 360 did have a dedicated scaler chip. E74 would refer to HANA on the elite, as both ANA and HANA were video output chips. Well now its a considered a correction that there is no dedicated scaling chip. Which wouldnt have been practical back then nor now. MS misinformed a ton of people in their component, HDDVD and scaling era. Then again MS complicate the simplest things somehow. It surprises me that their video output chip alone had so many faults Obviously most of the DVD players that say 1080p upscaling on the box are nearly a scam, as they do very little, but most upscalers (though the ones in TVs don't usually) do more than just changing the resolution, although, you are right in the sense that the word scaler just refers to the changing of the resolution. But most TV upscalers aren't much better than those on DVD players anyway. Yep. What you are confusing is the additional video processing. All you need is the 720p image to look fine(resized to 1080p for fullscreen) and run well. Its not like the console is enhancing the 720p image. Which is much more than scaling. I think i now know why so many people used to think 1080p was the same as 720p because they were seeing scaled material.
Nolan Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 No one has said the Console is enhancing the image, just that a console (with dedicated graphics hardware) is scaling the video output and that it performs this task better than a TV. Better meaning less loss of fidelity. As there is a loss regardless of what device is scaling. In comparison, I can watch a DVD with my 360, it's scaled to 1080p, it looks...okay. I can watch the same DVD with my laptop upscaling it to a 1080p image (assuming fullscreen) and it looks better than the 360. They're hooked up to the same monitor as well. Source material affects the overall outcome though, a movie without any retouching will look like a VHS tape whereas something newer like Transformers scales quite nicely in comparison. Both the 360 and laptop however, do a better job than a regular DVD player hooked up with component to a 1080p TV.
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