Posted March 8, 2009 I think that the clock hitting midnight, with the blood and all, indicates that in the long run Veidt did nothing except kill 3 million. I like to think that in the end Rorschach got his way. That's definitely open for interpretation though. I don't remember that bit in the book. I suppose in that case we must seperate the comic ending and the movie ending completely, not just in terms of how the people died, as I feel in the movie, the diary wouldn't have that much of an effect, whereas evidently, this is not the case in the comic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I'm only ever referring to the comic in this thread. As much as I enjoyed the film it doesn't have the subtleties of the comic. It's the last page in the comic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I'm only ever referring to the comic in this thread. As much as I enjoyed the film it doesn't have the subtleties of the comic. It's the last page in the comic. Oh yes. IIRC, that image is recurring throughout, with the blood seeping lower etc.? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I think Veidt is right to have acted as he did for one reason: Dr Manhattan. Basically, the way I see it is that through the politicisation and weaponisation of what basically amounts to Godhood, the United States creates an environment in which political reasoning no longer applies to Nuclear War. Armageddon is therefore inevitable as peace is impossible. I love how it all comes down to the Masked Hero myth created by The Minutemen- If they hadn't become part of the national psychology, America would have never coined the idea of Dr Manhattan as 'Superman'. Osterman *should* have become an apolitical force for peace, existing without loyalties to fickle notions of nationhood but instead became an excuse for war that was insurmountable by any other means than Veidt's alien. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Veidt is like the anti-Superman. He knows that it's logical to kill the few to save the many. The truth is if it's the only way, that's the best way. Superman, who lives in a far more fantastical world, would say you never sacrifice anyone. Similar to Rorschach's 'no compromises' - but in the real world Superman would be wrong, and everyone would have died. Being the smartest man in the world, Ozymandias will just see the logic - it's the same as Heroes season 1, except they only aim to wipe out one city, and only for America (I remember back when Heroes first aired saying "hey, that's a bit like Watchmen - only not as good"). Kill the few to save the many. America were moments away from pushing the button, everybody would have died. Is there a smaller action he could've made that would've also saved the world? Probably not. Maybe he could've wiped out 9 cities instead of 10, killed 12 million instead of 15 million - but it would be impossible to draw the line. It was exactly like dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. But I still preferred the book version where they blamed it on aliens. Manhattan was one of America's assetts, the smartest man in the world would've factored in the idea that the Russians could've blamed it on America. Aliens, while less plausible, unite the world as a common enemy and can't be blamed on a human party. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I think your wrong there dare of the dan, i think that without the minutemen creating this superhero fad, osterman would have still been politicalised by the US. If only because both sides were looking for ways to beat each other, dr manhattan comes along and he has the power to stop it, and he's naturally on the side of the country he knows/is swayed by. I disliked manhattan's emotionally retarded/disconnectedness but can understand how he felt that way, as on mars, describing the miricles he does each day. I think the manhattan outcome (his mars trip) would have happened eventually tbh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I really think the smartest man in the world could have found a solution that didn't involve killing millions of people. There's that whole bit in issue 10 when he's sitting in front of the TVs discussing what stocks he's going to invest in. "It's just me and the world." It just seems like he is ultimately doing everything for himself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I watched this today, knowning effectively nothing about the comic, except it was a comic. I found it fascinating, each character worked perfectly against the other, I do agree however that as the smartest person in the world, there should have been a way to save the world without killing innocent people. Instead of using a domino effect, although it was clever to use Dr Manhattan. The film was a tiny bit too long, maybe slightly confusing at the start, maybe it was because I for once, decided to do no research on watchmen before. Rorschach was by far my favourite character to watch, to follow as he developed through the film, I think alot of people (including myself) were at least alittle blurry eyed within the cinema near the end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Cos if God did it, it's alright... If we are to believe God is Omniscient than I'd say yeah its fair game to replicate what he does if you feel it necessary. He is the pinnacle of goodliness apparently afterall (although obviously isn't so fond of people claiming themself to be Him but im not so sure about behaving in His manner). What would Jesus do afterall? But perhaps im oversimplifying and being a stupid dick again. Who knows. I really think the smartest man in the world could have found a solution that didn't involve killing millions of people. There's that whole bit in issue 10 when he's sitting in front of the TVs discussing what stocks he's going to invest in. "It's just me and the world." It just seems like he is ultimately doing everything for himself. I always just presumed that was supposed to be the message. We've fucked up. We've fucked up so badly the only way out of this is destruction. Tabula Rasa. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I watched this today, knowning effectively nothing about the comic, except it was a comic. I found it fascinating, each character worked perfectly against the other, I do agree however that as the smartest person in the world, there should have been a way to save the world without killing innocent people. Instead of using a domino effect, although it was clever to use Dr Manhattan. The film was a tiny bit too long, maybe slightly confusing at the start, maybe it was because I for once, decided to do no research on watchmen before. Rorschach was by far my favourite character to watch, to follow as he developed through the film, I think alot of people (including myself) were at least alittle blurry eyed within the cinema near the end. This thread is about the comic, dearie. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Well I invaded and said about the movie anyway ^_^, should put WATCHMEN - just comic. Hehehehehe.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Well I invaded and said about the movie anyway ^_^, should put WATCHMEN - just comic. Hehehehehe.. Yeah want me to add it to the thread title Daft? Try and sort out any more confusion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 If we are to believe God is Omniscient than I'd say yeah its fair game to replicate what he does if you feel it necessary. He is the pinnacle of goodliness apparently afterall (although obviously isn't so fond of people claiming themself to be Him but im not so sure about behaving in His manner). What would Jesus do afterall? But perhaps im oversimplifying and being a stupid dick again. Who knows. I was only making a sarcastic comment about how God doesn't have anything to do with it. You might as well have cited Dumbo. I always just presumed that was supposed to be the message. We've fucked up. We've fucked up so badly the only way out of this is destruction. Tabula Rasa. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Veidt's intent, which I think is completely selfish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Yeah want me to add it to the thread title Daft? Try and sort out any more confusion. Can you not just talk about both? We did do it for the dark knight after all! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Can you not just talk about both? We did do it for the dark knight after all! No, because the film is different. Quite a lot different. Add it if you want but I thought people might read prior posts in a thread before posting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I did read all the posts, just not the top of yours. Sorry, feel free to delete my posts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 I did read all the posts, just not the top of yours. Sorry, feel free to delete my posts Na, maybe you're right. It's just hard to talk about the main comic with some people just seeing the film. It gets confusing. Since the comic is the end all, it'd just be more productive, me thinks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 hold on, how is veidt being selfish? by saving the world? at the cost of millions? rather than billions? or are you saying that as the worlds smartest man he could have found a better way to solve the problems he faced? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 hold on, how is veidt being selfish? by saving the world? at the cost of millions? rather than billions? or are you saying that as the worlds smartest man he could have found a better way to solve the problems he faced? Well the point seems to be, as Jon says, "Nothing ever ends". Ozy getting rid of Doc Manhattan is what puts the world in the brace of nuclear Armageddon. He then engineers a solution to a problem he has made explicit for what reason? So that he can get revenge on Ed Blake who showed him up? So he can elevate himself to saviour to humanity? So he can invest in stock to bolster his world domination corporation? Fundamentally he is perpetuating a world that will inevitably destroy itself. He is and advocate for capitalism and so I'm left wondering if his motives were primarily selfish. He doesn't find a true solution to the problem. It is just a quick fix that has massive benefits for him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Ah but the point is that because the threat is external, the world unites to face it "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing, he saw the world about to destroy itself and couldn't let that happen, disvised a plan to stop that from happening, which according to intial reaction did, it was unfortunate that eddie found the island and had to die to let billions live but whats one more after the millions in new york? I struggle to see how his actions could be selfish, he wouldn't be noted as the saviour of the world, he rests in the knowledge that he did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 Ah but the point is that because the threat is external, the world unites to face it "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing, he saw the world about to destroy itself and couldn't let that happen, disvised a plan to stop that from happening, which according to intial reaction did, it was unfortunate that eddie found the island and had to die to let billions live but whats one more after the millions in new york? I struggle to see how his actions could be selfish, he wouldn't be noted as the saviour of the world, he rests in the knowledge that he did. Because his solution is an absurd one. He understands that the world cannot cope with a superman, a sole person who can chose who lives and who dies, yet that's what he becomes. The Black Freighter and all that. Why not use his company's massive economic clout to do something? Or his popularity? Why not try and enter politics? He puts the world in the position where it was on the verge of destruction. He spent 20 years doing this. I find it weak to think that in this time the smartest man in the world could not find a more appropriate way to address the world's problem. Like I said, in the end, he has only postponed the inevitable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 8, 2009 It was exactly like dropping the bomb on Hiroshima. I think Veidt´s decisions mirrors the bombing a bit, it was supposed to end the war (Before it started in the case of Watchmen) and sent a certain message and but the world in a stalemate in an arms debacle. Veidt created a situation where it was us against the squid people and that we have to unite against them and prepare. Like you all know, the Squid was fabricated and in the end people will start to forget and we are in a position where we are prepared for war but no one to fight. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2009 I tihnk, as a race, the giant mutant vagina squids are grossly misrepresented in the book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2009 This thread is about the comic, dearie. You said 'primarily' the comic, surely someone could answer your original question without reading the book? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted March 9, 2009 I found it obnoxious anyways, and besides, it wasn't a real alien Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
