The Conduit

[...]

You can't say 'oohh CONTROLS! either because, well it's bullshit. It has nothing to do with game design.

 

oh and for the record, Halo bought a ridiculous amount of new ideas in [like] perfection of the console fps control method

 

 

Yep, I had to check twice if you were really the same guy.... Kudos to your self ownage, there. Masterful.

 

 

Hellfire beat me to it, but anyway, it's worth pointing out twice.

[Zechs Merquise]

Although I can't contradict you on all of those due to my somewhat limited knowledge of FPSes, I can confirm you're wrong on various things.

 

1) Starsiege: Tribes did seamless vehicle/on foot coombat back in 1998.

2) It was Goldeneye and Perfect Dark that perfected FPS controls on a console, not Halo. Infact, I feel that Halo brought them down a notch if anything (fucking dual-stick controls).

3) Revolutionary level design? You obviously forgot about the highly criticised library level, amirite?

4) Perfect Dark on the N64 had a co-op campain, if I'm not mistaken.

 

I'm sure some people can confirm that the other claims you made are errorneous, though.

 

Too right my friend! Halo level design was nothing special. I loved the first but found many sections to be very repetitive - the library was one of the worst sections of a game I've ever played.

 

I would also like to second the fact that Goldeye and PD did more for FPS games than Halo.

 

I also stand by the fact that Goldeneye is still the best FPS to date - especially when it comes to single player. I've never played an FPS since that has had such a wonderful and fulfilling single player - Halo wasn't even close. The best thing since for me was Time Splitters 2 & 3.

[Guest Maase]

I would like someone to quote me with my maths and show it here to DanDare.

 

(My battery is almost out)

 

Wii is simply better for FPS's than XBOX360, DanDare, it could even have N64 graphics, i don't care. It will still rock the world of the entire XBOX360 and PS3 catalogue.

 

Simply because of... Yeah.. that's right.. the Wiimote

[Hellfire]

I would like someone to quote me with my maths and show it here to DanDare.

 

(My battery is almost out)

 

Wii is simply better for FPS's than XBOX360, DanDare, it could even have N64 graphics, i don't care. It will still rock the world of the entire XBOX360 and PS3 catalogue.

 

Simply because of... Yeah.. that's right.. the Wiimote

 

Let's not exagerate here, Wii has the potential to be much better at FPS, to me, but it's not quite there yet for an FPS fan. And it will never be the right console for those who eat and breathe online. (That would be the PC :P)

[D_prOdigy]

. And it will never be the right console for those who eat and breathe online. (That would be the PC :P)

 

*breathes heavily* What's this??? Did someone mention my precious Counter Strike???

 

*returns to foetal position, singing*

 

hee hee hee

[Gizmo]

This thread =

 

I would like someone to quote me with my maths and show it here to DanDare.

 

(My battery is almost out)

 

Wii is simply better for FPS's than XBOX360, DanDare, it could even have N64 graphics, i don't care. It will still rock the world of the entire XBOX360 and PS3 catalogue.

 

Simply because of... Yeah.. that's right.. the Wiimote

 

So The Conduit will be better than Bioshock/CoD4/Fallout 3? Riiiight.

[darksnowman]

Why do we need recharging health? Good old medikits are fine by me.

 

We need to keep our perspective on this. It won't blow the games on the PS3 or 360 outta the water with its graphics, but it can still be good/ great in the context of the Wii. They are putting the effort in which is too much of a rarity on the Wii.

 

The Conduit will hopefully bring a lot of fun to things, which is what we want, right? And who's to say it won't bring fresh ideas to the table? These guys making it seem to have some genuine enthusiasm for it, so they will want to make The Conduit the best game they possibly can. Maybe they have bitten off more than they can chew, that remains to be seen.

 

The main point of concern is... there's no need to descend this discussion into Wii vs PS3/360. Sure the games can be compared, but lets keep it friendly and non-flamey. Arguments are damned boring. Go play some games rather than post if you are gonna be argumentative.

[dazzybee]

Dan Dare why are you being so ignorant? I have all three consoles, I have played all their FPS's, I have all three Halo games and here are my conlusions....

 

- Halo is one of the most fucking overrated games I have ever played!! It's shit! Halo 3 couldn't be more dull! A few decent features? Who gives a shit when the game is that boring. Revolutionary? How long have you been playing games? I don't see anything revolutionary in that game

 

My other main observation is the wii mote, which for me is WAY more important that physics, graphics and even online.

 

The best forst person shooter on 360 or PS3 is Bioshock, and personally I prefer Metroid. I even loved Medal of Honor 2 because of the controls?

 

Now all this is my opinion. But do I troll on the 360 boards slating every single FPS because they can't compete with the wii controls? No. So why are you doing it here?

[Guest Maase]

Dan Dare why are you being so ignorant? I have all three consoles, I have played all their FPS's, I have all three Halo games and here are my conlusions....

 

- Halo is one of the most fucking overrated games I have ever played!! It's shit! Halo 3 couldn't be more dull! A few decent features? Who gives a shit when the game is that boring. Revolutionary? How long have you been playing games? I don't see anything revolutionary in that game

 

My other main observation is the wii mote, which for me is WAY more important that physics, graphics and even online.

 

The best forst person shooter on 360 or PS3 is Bioshock, and personally I prefer Metroid. I even loved Medal of Honor 2 because of the controls?

 

Now all this is my opinion. But do I troll on the 360 boards slating every single FPS because they can't compete with the wii controls? No. So why are you doing it here?

 

And graphics

 

So The Conduit will be better than Bioshock/CoD4/Fallout 3? Riiiight.

 

It was an Hyperbole (does this word exist in English?), still, some points to add:

-Fallout 3 is not a FPS

-Bioshock is boring and easy as hell (played it in PC)

-CoD 4 has a great multiplayer mode, so i guess you're right in that one, and i can't find any possible argument to attack back.

 

You know what would be awesome? CoD 4 with WiiMote controls

 

*Drools*

[jammy2211]

I think the Wii can't offer the FPS experience the HD consoles can, while it's control scheme may be better I still find the controllers a more then competent option.

 

I just don't think the Wii has the hardware, what FPS's on the 360 and PS3 do nowadays is just something else and not just in graphics, I'll find it hard to go back to a Wii FPS and enjoy it as it could always be a better game in nearly every way on another console. Metroid Prime 3 was great but not because it was a FPS (which it wasn't).

 

As for The Conduit, it looks nice, will probably be the best the Wii has to offer but I think it'd sink compared the big boys on PS3 and 360. As for Wii's online interface for something like this... no chance.

[The-chosen-one]

Too right my friend! Halo level design was nothing special. I loved the first but found many sections to be very repetitive - the library was one of the worst sections of a game I've ever played.

 

I would also like to second the fact that Goldeye and PD did more for FPS games than Halo.

 

I also stand by the fact that Goldeneye is still the best FPS to date - especially when it comes to single player. I've never played an FPS since that has had such a wonderful and fulfilling single player - Halo wasn't even close. The best thing since for me was Time Splitters 2 & 3.

 

 

i agree with you on that Goldeneye and perfect dark

but the best part ffrom goldeneye is still the multiplayer that was the most addictive part in my opinion lots of friends came over just to play goldeneye and blast eachother into oblivion haha loved it and perfect dark was the best with single player mode and now rare is screwed they dont make good games anymore every game i played sucked on 360 ( rare games i mean )

 

i hope they will come back some day and make good games for nintendo

[spirited away]

Dan Dare why are you being so ignorant? I have all three consoles, I have played all their FPS's, I have all three Halo games and here are my conlusions....

 

- Halo is one of the most fucking overrated games I have ever played!! It's shit! Halo 3 couldn't be more dull! A few decent features? Who gives a shit when the game is that boring. Revolutionary? How long have you been playing games? I don't see anything revolutionary in that game

 

 

Wow that was worth wasting time typing, wasn't it?

[The-chosen-one]

i have 2 consoles 360 and wii

i i have to agree that halo 3 is an overated game its nothing special single player is bad but the online play is fun to do but nothing special like everyone is making it look like to me its just the same as any halo game only that the single player got worse

[Patch]

The main point of concern is... there's no need to descend this discussion into Wii vs PS3/360. Sure the games can be compared, but lets keep it friendly and non-flamey. Arguments are damned boring. Go play some games rather than post if you are gonna be argumentative.

 

Hear, hear! Isn't it odd that people get so passionate about a videogame that's not even out yet? You'd think the entire staff of HVS and Bungie were posting on here.

 

Metroid Prime 3 was great but not because it was a FPS (which it wasn't).

 

Legendary.

[...]

 

Originally Posted by jammy2211

Metroid Prime 3 was great but not because it was a FPS (which it wasn't).

 

Legendary.

 

I actually agree with him, and I'll phrase it a bit differently: Metroid Prime (1, 2 and 3) is great BECAUSE it's not an FPS.

[darksnowman]

Hear, hear! Isn't it odd that people get so passionate about a videogame that's not even out yet? You'd think the entire staff of HVS and Bungie were posting on here.

 

 

 

Legendary.

 

Patch!? How do you have time to post on here? Get back to hunting down those last few trophies and stickers in SSB Brawl! Go on, get to it!

[Zechs Merquise]

i agree with you on that Goldeneye and perfect dark

but the best part ffrom goldeneye is still the multiplayer that was the most addictive part in my opinion lots of friends came over just to play goldeneye and blast eachother into oblivion haha loved it and perfect dark was the best with single player mode and now rare is screwed they dont make good games anymore every game i played sucked on 360 ( rare games i mean )

 

i hope they will come back some day and make good games for nintendo

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I loved the multiplayr too. We had massive tournaments at our school, we'd sit up till the early hours playing it. I would vote this as one of the top ten games of all time.

 

The thing that got me most was, when other games NEEDED multiplayer to keep them fresh, Goldeneye had so much customisation in it's single player, and so many ways to attempt each level, the single player game had more life in it than any other single player FPS i've ever played.

[Gizmo]

And graphics

 

 

 

It was an Hyperbole (does this word exist in English?), still, some points to add:

-Fallout 3 is not a FPS

-Bioshock is boring and easy as hell (played it in PC)

-CoD 4 has a great multiplayer mode, so i guess you're right in that one, and i can't find any possible argument to attack back.

 

You know what would be awesome? CoD 4 with WiiMote controls

 

*Drools*

 

Fallout 3 is a game in which you can look via third person and shoot, no?

 

Bioshock is fantastic and hardly boring. It's only easy if you play it on the normal settings, with vita chambers enabled.

 

I really don't see what people see in the Wiimote FPS controls. I played Metroid and I really wasn't that impressed - it felt a bit too imprecise. Maybe I just have a very unsteady hand :p

[Guest Maase]

Fallout 3 is a game in which you can look via third person and shoot, no?

 

Bioshock is fantastic and hardly boring. It's only easy if you play it on the normal settings, with vita chambers enabled.

 

I really don't see what people see in the Wiimote FPS controls. I played Metroid and I really wasn't that impressed - it felt a bit too imprecise. Maybe I just have a very unsteady hand :p

 

Fallout 3 is an RPG, PERIOD..

 

There isn't a need to discuss that, i told that a Wii Game could finish every FPS, Bioshock is not a FPS in the normal meaning.

Bioshock is really boring, i played it on Normal and got bored so quickly of it.

Also, Metroid Prime 3 is not a FPS in the normal meaning, even tough its great.

 

But yes, i got the hand unsteady too, but its just a question of getting the habit, lol.

[Emasher]

Perhaps the reason alot of people are unsure of how good an FPS could be with proper Wii controls. Is that there hasn't been a really good FPS on the Wii yet.

[Patch]

Patch!? How do you have time to post on here? Get back to hunting down those last few trophies and stickers in SSB Brawl! Go on, get to it!

 

*Sigh* Yes, master.

[Zechs Merquise]

Perhaps the reason alot of people are unsure of how good an FPS could be with proper Wii controls. Is that there hasn't been a really good FPS on the Wii yet.

 

Try MOHH2, 32 player online - enough said!

[Emasher]

Well, one game that alot of people haven't played due to thinking its just another WW2 FPS isn't really going to convince that many people. Though I've only heard good things about it. I'm going to have to pick it up if I can find it used.

[Zechs Merquise]

Well, one game that alot of people haven't played due to thinking its just another WW2 FPS isn't really going to convince that many people. Though I've only heard good things about it. I'm going to have to pick it up if I can find it used.

 

It's available from £14 NEW & SEALED on eBay. Beware though, some of the better deals are the Danish book and box version, so although the game is in English the packaging ain't! I got stung on that, and personally I'd rather pay £5 more and get the real deal.

[Edjamakated]

I think the Wii can't offer the FPS experience the HD consoles can, while it's control scheme may be better I still find the controllers a more then competent option.

 

I just don't think the Wii has the hardware, what FPS's on the 360 and PS3 do nowadays is just something else and not just in graphics, I'll find it hard to go back to a Wii FPS and enjoy it as it could always be a better game in nearly every way on another console. Metroid Prime 3 was great but not because it was a FPS (which it wasn't).

 

As for The Conduit, it looks nice, will probably be the best the Wii has to offer but I think it'd sink compared the big boys on PS3 and 360. As for Wii's online interface for something like this... no chance.

 

I posted this in a forum I frequent more often. It was entitled:

 

Even without HD, why the Wii can make the most realistic FPS.

 

:::HD =/= Realistic:::

 

First off, I believe making a game realistic doesn't mean it has to have realistic graphics. WiiSports Bowling is a perfect example of that. So the HD debate goes out the window. Still, I'd like to say that making the game realistically intuitive doesn't mean it has to be a waggle fest either.

 

I don't know about you, but GoldenEye: License to Kill: Pistols is still one of my favorite ways to play a FPS. I like the fact that it was fast, sharp, and fun. When it's easy to die, you are more worried about dieing. I know it sounds simple, but it's true. There's a sort of anxiety and adrenal that I felt playing that game, that I haven't felt in a long time. Why is that?

 

:::Realism stems from realistic behavior:::

 

A realistic game needs a realistic "game world", realistic collision detection as well as physics, animation, and AI. Graphics are the least important part. Imagine a game that took into account where you were shot. If you were shot in the leg, you would limp. If you were shot in the arm, you couldn't hold an assault rifle. If you were shot in the torso, it would slow your agility and speed. Games these days call themselves realistic, but really only have realistic graphics and weapons. There are facets of the game that need to be rethought with at least the same effort developers put into HD graphics.

 

Notice how the player has been shot in the left leg

 

:::Player-controlled-context sensitive buttons opens up restrictive gameplay:::

 

I believe the Wii is the only console that can benefit greatly from what I call "context sensitive control schemes." Similar to RE4 with it's ability to change it's control scheme from moving to shooting with a simple button-hold, I think the Wii can use multiple context sensitive schemes to expand the over-arching control scheme and do away with inventive but ultimately annoyingly inaccurate "waggle" control (ie pushing the remote forward to zoom in). Instead, zooming can work like this: when holding the "A" button, which brings up your scope, the "C" button, normally used for jumping, is now used in conjunction with the analog stick to zoom in and out. You hold the "C" button down as you move the joystick back and forth to adjust the zoom. Needless to say, you'll be holding two buttons, interacting with the joystick, and pressing a third button when your ready to fire. While that may sound complicated, the Wii controller is makes it easy due to the nature of the controller being disjointed.

 

 

Now that's just one example of changing a button's action in coordination with another.

 

This setup would finally put to rest any claims that the wiimote needs more buttons. That said, I'm not promoting the idea that every button needs 8 different functions. Instead, I'd like to think that the button (joystick, etc) would intuitively change to the appropriate action if you were to play in that certain context of a game for the entire game.... I hope I didn't lose you.... What I'm saying is: if I were to play the entire game through a scope of a rifle, wouldn't I want a fast and responsive zoom? If you break down a game into its parts and look at one specific part as though it were the entire game, you'll find that the easiest and most proficient control scheme for that part wouldn't coincide well with those from other parts of the game. So while jumping maybe necessary and deserving of its own button for the running and gunning portion of the game; when looking through a scope, you realize that the ability to manage your zoom is far more important. And that's exactly how the compliment is made.

 

(NOTE: The "C" button can also have another ability, one that's also context sensitive. Since it is used to jump, it would make sense for the game to prompt context sensitive commands that pertain to jumping: such as, jumping out of windows, or jump fences, and/or sliding down staircase rails)

 

:::Evasion is just as important as attacking:::

 

Another example of modern day games not being realistic is evasion. There are so many times in other games that I wish I could evade quicker but instead I have to try to run away and hide. It's because of this most games boil down to who sees the other person first. Dodging really is still a new facet of gameplay that has yet to be explored in a FPS, especially the dive roll. GOW used diving extensively, and I think they did it well; however, GOW gameplay still lacks in quality. The dive roll would work simply by pressing the "Z" button (which normally makes you crouch) while the analog stick is pushed fully towards one side. Also, when running (performed by double tapping forward) or jumping, pressing the "Z" button will make you dive. The view would switch briefly from FP to TP; returning to FP after about a second. You can even dive into people to knock them down. Diving into them from behind or in front could activate another context where you could bludgeon them. These are just a bunch of ideas, but I really think there needs to be a defensive evasive maneuver. The important thing about this maneuver is the fact that your aim is still independent from your movements. So while you maybe diving all over the place with your view switching back and forth, you can always rely on your aim to still be fixated on that persons head.

 

Another unexplored tactic is sliding. When running, if you press and hold the "Z" button, you will first initiate a running dive that will be followed by an on the back slide (if the ground permits). Sliding allows you to shoot or melee your enemy's while still fast-moving and low to the floor. And based on what type of ground your are sliding on, your slides can be as short as 2 meters (smooth cement) or can go on forever (sliding down a snow hill). This is more of an offensive maneuver.

 

These tactics will finally help put an end to stiff FPS's, where the only way to dodge is to strafe side to side or jump. Dodging will allow the player to experience far fewer deaths (especially poorly deserved deaths) and ultimately make the game more satisfying to play. If people are harder to kill, then it'll be more rewarding when you do kill a player.

 

:::The switch between different views lends itself to the most effective gameplay:::

 

One thing that Halo 3 does well (oh god, bear with me) is changing back and forth from FP to TP view. The Wii has capitalized on that switch before (Prime 3), but in this case it could be the frame MotionPlus support needs. Along side the normal weapons your character can hold is a melee weapon. Unsheathing the weapon (NOTE: by pressing a button different than the weapon-cycle button), be it a sword or pipe or whatever, moves the view from FP to over-the-shoulder TP to help the player better determine how far their reach extends ultimately making it easier to hit that unsuspecting enemy. To swing, you need to first hold "A" down (which locks the view), then replicate the motion one to one. The melee weapon can even be thrown simply by pressing "B" after holding down "A". (NOTE: Pressing "B" or fire when not holding down "A" first will instantly transfer you back to "gun-mode")

 

 

What's interesting is in this mode one could add a lock-on feature. If you happen to be aiming at someone, holding down "A" would not only allow you the freedom to perform 1 to 1 motions, but also let you strafe around the person you were aiming at.

 

The only problem with this idea, is how well aiming and turning in third person works.

 

:::Overall, fast, competitive, smart, versatile gameplay is the most important aspects of the FPS:::

 

With this setup, you can have a very realistic FPS that focuses on agility, sharp aim, and strategy.

 

Imagine a game that had no HUD except for a small ammo count and a transparent outline of a body that shows exactly where you are hurting; a game that focuses on managing your weaponry and ammo, instead of simply running and gunning; a game that focuses on disabling and sharp shooting, rather than spraying and hoping; a game where you can dive out of harms way, regroup, and exchange shots; a game where a pistol is actually a worthy gun; a game where your missions are clearly laid out, but not spoon-fed during the actual campaign.

 

Now, the FPS genre has come along in some respect. For instance, I like the fact that there is an auto-heal if you can manage to duck out of harms way. What I hate is the fact that it's unlimited. Running away when being shot too many times isn't a bad idea, but coming back out to fight as if nothing happened is annoying. And what's worse is that you can still shoot while your healing.

 

Instead, I think a compromise needs to made. Imagine being shot so bad that you barely make it out of harms way. You can heal yourself by way of morphine shot, but you only have so much morphine. You'll have to re-up to be able to continually heal your wounds. Plus, while you heal, you'll literally see yourself stick a needle into your arm; so no more shooting while you heal. This way people can't just run away as they wait to heal. Also, it'll make health an issue once again. Maybe you don't want to use your last morphine shot even though your arm was shot. Maybe you can survive until more morphine is available.

 

Anyway, I think that there needs to be more thought put in to FPS's and not just in the way of graphics, but rather fun and inventive gameplay with strategy and cleverness at its heart. That's where you'll get the adrenaline and the rush.

 

Your thoughts?