ghost_zero Posted March 28, 2008 Posted March 28, 2008 Oh right, yeah. If a PAL game comes with an update in the future it's advised that you use the Freeloader method of updating, to reduce the risk of the update blocking the Freeloader. I say reduce as it only installs components of the update necessary to run the game, eg the update in Smash Bros allowing the Wii to read dual layer discs. One of these necessary components may also block the Freeloader in the future. For now though it works perfectly fine. Well if you ask me that is not really what the FreeLoader does to ensure that further it will keep working after those updates. The main point probably is HOW the Wii handles updates here. All updates get added to the Wii BUT won't loaded unless you tell the Wii that it should load them or that the game itself loads them because needed. So those method probably still installs ALL updates. However, it won't let the Wii load system updates e.g. because if needed the games will load them theirselves AND so the risk for updates to stop the FreeLoader from working is nearly zero (of course, not completely zero because e.g. the could hide an update somewhere that gets installed later or whatsoever); however the most probably worst case scenario is that newer games might stop to work with the FreeLoader because the need to use the newer Firmware-Updates. However, even that is unlikely because the FreeLoader gets loaded BEFORE the game (at least not as long as the game doesn't some additional checking too). That is also explained on wiibrew.org regarding the IOS37 update. The update indeed would block the FreeLoader IF that update would get loaded by the Wii system BUT it doesn't as the Wii is told to still only load IOS30, only games currently might load IOS37 - however as said they load that update AFTER the FreeLoader got loaded already and therefore I think it is still unlikely that it wouldn't work, but at least already working games WOULD continue to work.
Gizmo Posted March 28, 2008 Posted March 28, 2008 Actually, I'm pretty sure it says on the Freeloader manual* that it only installs the necessary parts. *It's not really a manual, more a single piece of paper.
ghost_zero Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 It does... However it is more likely to be that way... I mean to identify which updates are needed and which not, isn't that easy - not to mention that required updates could block the FreeLoader too. You can also put it into the context I think it is, e.g. if they mean with installing that they get loaded with the Wii directly - well that's won't be many updates that need to be loaded with the Wii System BUT of course, I have not developed it and so I don't completely know but if you ask me it is not really possible to detect REALLY necessary updates becasue probably for the game all the updates on the disk are necessary to bypass the update procedure (at least I would think it is so).
Tales Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 I was so sure I posted this earlier.... Anyway, some time before the freeloader was released I read that when you have used it the first time, you have to use it on every single game you buy later regardless of region. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Has anyone even read this somewhere or am I imagining things? Sorry if I annoy you or something like that, but the last thing I want is for my Wii to brick just when I am about to play Mario Kart. I have no idea what the freeloader did to my Wii.
Rummy Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 It seems to be what is currently being discussed. You do not HAVE to use it on every single game after, Datel RECOMMEND that you do to avoid firmware that could stop it working from being installed. I do believe the Freeloader regular boot method totally bypasses any sorts of system update/firmware updates the disc offers, and the second method installs everything the disc wants to install. I find it hard to believe the freeloader is intelligent enough to selectively install off a wii disc.
ghost_zero Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 No, Datel said to use the second method (and that only for updating the Firmware before you can play the game normally) as it does not just install everything. It installs updates but tries to bypass probelms with the FreeLoader that might occur from such updates... Especially because some games require those updates to even work and therefore you will definitally need to install them. However, that method is called alternative, selective upgrade method BUT as I mentioned I believe it still installs everything BUT doesn't allow those updates to be loaded which is a normal Wii feature, like with IOS37 in the US, it got installed and every game can used BUT the Wii system itself doesn't use it (at least not now) AND I guess that is the same thing the FreeLoader does... Which is you could call it selectively install required updates as only the required updates will then get loaded by the game itself (however only by that game and nothing else)... Btw. that way is also the only way to avoid troubles with e.g. required US/JP firmware updates. I mean if you need to update because of a new US/JP game you will eventually run into problems, if this update gets loaded by the Wii system BUT as long as it gets added only but not loaded by the Wii system there shouldn't be any real problems... I don't think that there is much more possible. Only thing I could further imagine would be that the game itself has categories for needed and optional firmware updates BUT that would be STRANGE, as it installs all of them anyway normally.... OF COURSE, that is only what I think but it makes the most sense and as said Datel said to use the alternative, selective update method for European games too BUT only for the updates, afterwards you can use the game just fine the normal way (and I think regarding this it is most likely to be the way I mentioned above). You can also read this on the first page here...
Hellfire Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 Look, it's pretty much impossible to expect all future games to work without the complete updates, the freeloader cannot guess which parts will be completly necessary. There are no certainties, but thinking Freeloader will miraculously work forever is being way too gullible.
Rummy Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 I have to say, your posts are most confusing and I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're saying. The way I see it, the freeloader works as follows; Wii discs often contain firmware upgrades on them, presumably for people who haven't updated their wii through the internet for one reason or another. These discs will install the firmware on them unless a newer version is already on the Wii. The Freeloader will boot import games, and regular games, by somehow fooling the disc into thinking there is a more current version of the firmware or fooling it into thinking it doesn't need to install the update. This is with the regular method(put in once). With the alternative/second method/the one where you put the freeloader in twice, it makes the wii/disc ignore the region coding but DOES NOT bypass the firmware as in the above step. It boots the disc as a disc would regularly run on a wii system of its specified region. Hence, the button will say Update, instead of start, and when you update as such, it will take place exactly as if you weren't using a freeloader. The Wii now has the firmware, and the Freeloader no longer bypasses this or selectively decides what installed aspects to use. It does however, still fool discs into thinking they can run and not need to install new firmware. Look, it's pretty much impossible to expect all future games to work without the complete updates, the freeloader cannot guess which parts will be completly necessary. There are no certainties, but thinking Freeloader will miraculously work forever is being way too gullible. I second this notion, but found it hard to believe he was actually suggesting such a thing, as I find it a ridiculous idea. If it was the case, there'd be no need for alternate methods, surely?
ghost_zero Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 @Rummy: Do you mean me? You could think about it as if you add new page to a book but all old pages are still there. Yet the reader (which is the Wii) only reads the old pages (old firmware) but not the new one, as he doesn't know about that page (well he does know about it but isn't told to read them to be more precisely). Only certain games (readers who know about the new pages) will request those new pages. I know this example is not the best but that more or less is what e.g. IOS37 is about and I guess that might be the way the FreeLoader does firmware updates... It is just that way. Updates are installed but installing alone doesn't mean the get used by the Wii system (that's e.g. IOS37, it got installed on US Wiis but they still only load IOS30; only certain games load IOS37). The point is that the Wii itself does it that way (to be compatible with games that need an older firmware). The only thnk it might update too, is that it lets the system load the new firmware too and not only the games. And no the alternative update method is no normal update method, otherwise the booklet (see first page here; also regarding this it says to only avoid online updates) wouldn't recommend to use that method even for European disks. It either doesn't install certain updates at all (what I don't think) or it does it the way I explained above WHICH is what the Wii does itself, only that normally the Wii system would be informed about the "new pages". @Hellfire: It most likely won't work for future games (at least know if Nintendo plans to add additional protections on the game disks themselves, it isn't very likely - at least as long as you don't do any online updates AND if the FreeLoader does the alternative update method, the way I think it does - though I am not completely sure here), HOWEVER it will probably keep working with games it already worked with, as long as you don't update the Wii online. I am not saying the FreeLoader will work indefinitally, however I am thinking about the way it can/could work during the alternative upgrade process and in that case it would be most likely to at least keep working with all games it already worked before (if It does it the way, I guess it does). Btw.: If you ask me Datel might would be able to get an official license from Nintendo for the FreeLoader, if they would want it - that way would be the coolest, because in that case Nintendo would need to keep the FreeLoader working, even after Firmware updates However, they haven't and therefore, nothing is certain...
Gizmo Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 Firmware isn't like a book with "pages added." Lines of code are changed and lines are added. You can't pick and choose which lines of this code to read. The Freeloader simply checks what lines of the update need to be added to allow the game to run, installs them, then leaves the rest. It doesn't install everything then ignore some of it, computers can't do that.
Hellfire Posted March 29, 2008 Posted March 29, 2008 ghost, so you can play old game but you won't be able to play new ones, so you have to choose between them? lol seems like a great deal. Things don't work as simply as you make it seem, most likely you won't be able to play lots of games and get WiiWare stuff if you don't do the online updates, it's possible we'll see it soon with Mario Kart. Hopefully the Freeloader update method can bypass that, but it's better not to expect too much.
ghost_zero Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 Of course, it isn't as simple. It was more of an example. But it isn't as easy probably to block the FreeLoader from Game updates on disks - online updates will be a different part. As said Firmware-Updates for Wii aren't the same as Firmware-Updates are normally. (Just read also the part I will write @Gizmo). And I ONLY meant US/JP games (with older games), not European games (European shouldn't be a problem at all, of course not as your Wii is European). Of course, VC games and WiiWare titles might become a problem as the Shop-Channel might require firmware updates... @Gizmo: Normally not BUT with the Wii it is like this. It keeps all old firmwares too. Just look at wiibrew.org regarding IOS37 if you don't believe me. IT keeps the WHOLE firmwares. And you either load the complete old or complete new firmware. Not just some lines of it. And you can tell the Wii system which firmware it shall use. At least for the most parts of it. That is mainly done for compitability with games (the often need an older firmware to run). So the point is as long as the Wii will use an older Firmware for the system there shouldn't be any problem with the FreeLoader at least for games it already worked with... AND I think the FreeLoader tells the Wii to use the older Firmware for the system after the update (of course, I am not sure though). The game itself would load the new Firmware though but it would be only the game itself... But if it really does it do like this is another question (it should be possible though as this is a Wii feature regarding updates). One thing is for sure though, it does not just update, it does a bit more (but probably not to much)... EDIT: Anyway it doesn't really matter that much. Even if it is the way I think it is, Nintendo can still block it, if they want and if not it will be better anyway (however, they could still block it by blocking other things for the Wii like they did with the GameCube FreeLoader and Modchips)... We will find out about this in the future anyway...
BeerMonkey Posted March 30, 2008 Posted March 30, 2008 yey my smash bros which i ordered on 1st march is finally on its way (invoiced on 29th) smash bros party soon on mates projector my freeloader has just been sat next to my wii for the past 2 weeks
Tales Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 It seems to be what is currently being discussed. You do not HAVE to use it on every single game after, Datel RECOMMEND that you do to avoid firmware that could stop it working from being installed. I do believe the Freeloader regular boot method totally bypasses any sorts of system update/firmware updates the disc offers, and the second method installs everything the disc wants to install. I find it hard to believe the freeloader is intelligent enough to selectively install off a wii disc. Most of what you guys have talked about have went way over my head. Is there the slighest chance that something bad can happen if I play Mario Kart or any future game when I have used the freeloader on my Wii?
Guest Stefkov Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Just a question which has probably been answered. If I play NMH then turn off the console, do I need to do the shizaz with the freeloader again when I turn back on even if NMH is still in the drive?
Tellyn Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Yep. You just have to put the Freeloader in once though.
Tales Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 If no one knows for sure, tell me, and I will order a new freeloader just to be on the safe side. Something I need to do very soon if I want it in time for Mario Kart.
Guest Stefkov Posted April 1, 2008 Posted April 1, 2008 Yep. You just have to put the Freeloader in once though. You mean none of this put it in twice jazz? Aye it worked when I put it in once. NMH + Blood = Me like Wii for a while.
Tellyn Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 You mean none of this put it in twice jazz? Aye it worked when I put it in once. NMH + Blood = Me like Wii for a while. You just have to put it in twice when you first put a disc in, any time after that you just have to put it in once.
ShadowV7 Posted April 2, 2008 Posted April 2, 2008 You just need to put the Freeloader in twice for a game that has an update on it, apart from that everything else you only put in once.
ghost_zero Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 @Tales: You probably can't say for sure but I can tell you what I got from Datel as answer to my last mail to them (maybe this helps you to decide): Can it happen that there will be once a game that after doing the updates that the FreeLoader will stop working afterwards? If so, how will this be handled? – The parts of an update program which are allowed to be selectively run will not affect the usage of the product and we generally suggest using the Freeloader to load any region of games to avoid an update from been installed which may affect the usage of the product. What about games that might have new region checks and won't work with the current FreeLoader, how will they be handled? – As this is not a current problem I ca not confirm how this would be handled I am still not completely sure, how they determine those parts a.s.o. but regarding that it should work (but of course, I guess only time will tell)...
Tales Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Thanks, I decided to play it safe and bought the freeloader yesterday once again. Hopefully it will arrive before MKWii.
Eenuh Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Thanks, I decided to play it safe and bought the freeloader yesterday once again. Hopefully it will arrive before MKWii. Why though? If you weren't planning on importing and using the Freeloader anymore, then I don't see why you couldn't just update your Wii?
Tales Posted April 4, 2008 Posted April 4, 2008 Because the manual in the freeloader says that use of any game regardless of region can cause "unwanted problems", so unless someone can confirm it's safe to play MKWii or any other new game I will keep using the freeloader.
ghost_zero Posted April 5, 2008 Posted April 5, 2008 I think the UNWANTED problems can only occur with external region games regarding updates because they could e.g. interfer with the European firmware. Not regarding European games. For European games you shall only use the alternative, selective update method to avoid making the FreeLoader useless because of some firmware update... Btw. is there already known if Baroque will work with the FreeLoader..? Because currently I think it is not even known if that game will come out in Europe at all...
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