Banning of swords in the Uk

[Kurtle Squad]

Swords effect other people as well, usually the person at the pointy end. Alcohol also makes people effect other people, for intance effecting their face with their fist.

Not when a sword is in the right 'hands'.

Drug usage can affect anyone & everyone.

Alcohol is a drug:indeed:

Are you suggesting alcohol's banned?

[BlueStar]

Not when a sword is in the right 'hands'.

Drug usage can affect anyone & everyone.

Alcohol is a drug:indeed:

Are you suggesting alcohol's banned?

 

Sword usage can effect everyone as well, just like drug usage it comes down to personal responsibility. Alcohol is a drug, like you say and can effect anyone and everyone - you seem to be the one leaning more on the side of the criminalisation of drugs, why are you asking me if I want alcohol banned, surely that's the question I should be asking you?

[Kurtle Squad]

Sword usage can effect everyone as well, just like drug usage it comes down to personal responsibility. Alcohol is a drug, like you say and can effect anyone and everyone - you seem to be the one leaning more on the side of the criminalisation of drugs, why are you asking me if I want alcohol banned, surely that's the question I should be asking you?

No...I was condeming drug usage, and then u started condeming alcohol, as if it was a different subject (though it kind of is); thats why I'm asking you, as you brought it up as a branch of off drugs.

No, I don't think alcohol should be banned, and it wont due to the rest of the world and would cause more problems than it would solve, plus there isn't the same 'drinking culture' anywhere but here, maybe if the governent got to the root of that, then alcohol would be less of a problem that swords.

 

Sword 'usage' CAN affect everyone, but it doesn't....Most owners of a swords do not use them to maim people in the street.

All drug owners take drugs or at least supply them to someone who will.

 

Maybe if the Govt. focused on bigger problems like jail sentances and kicking 'hoodies' in the balls (rather than making love to them), they'd get somewhere in making the county better, banning swords isn't going to do that.

[Noodleman]

I actualy despair at the state of this thread I really do.

[Noodleman]

Fuck off then and go to Colchester town by paying a ridiculous amount on bus fairs and get your head kicked in by chavs or something.

 

One day you'll grow up enough to be able to have an articulate discussion with somebody who doesnt have the same opinion as you, without resorting to throwing childish insults around. Then perhaps we can talk.

[BlueStar]

No...I was condeming drug usage, and then u started condeming alcohol, as if it was a different subject (though it kind of is);

 

I'm not condemning alcohol, I'm talking about it as if it's the same subject, which it essentially is. Alcohol was brought up on the last page of this thread.

No, I don't think alcohol should be banned, and it wont due to the rest of the world and would cause more problems than it would solve

 

Indeed I agree, just like the war on drugs causes most drug related problems - in particular problems with canabis stem almost exclusively from its illegality and crime related to heroin could be slashed if it was available on prescription rathern than exclusively by giving stolen TVs to drug dealers.

 

Sword 'usage' CAN affect everyone, but it doesn't....Most owners of a swords do not use them to maim people in the street.

All drug owners take drugs or at least supply them to someone who will.

 

But not all drug users effect other people, just like everyone with a sword doesn't stab people with it, just like not everyone with a replica gun uses it to hold up a bank and not everyone with a nuke uses it to wipe out a country.

Maybe if the Govt. focused on bigger problems like jail sentances and kicking 'hoodies' in the balls (rather than making love to them), they'd get somewhere in making the county better, banning swords isn't going to do that.

 

The prison population in the UK rises every year. Are things getting better every year?

[Kurtle Squad]

But not all drug users effect other people, just like everyone with a sword doesn't stab people with it, just like not everyone with a replica gun uses it to hold up a bank and not everyone with a nuke uses it to wipe out a country.

 

 

The prison population in the UK rises every year. Are things getting better every year?

There is no real need for a replica gun, appart from the collector side of things; and the bad points just go back to where people actually use guns for a significant amount crimes.

 

The nuke thing's a little different to public weapons; plus, they are actually there to wipe out a country, if a country did something which a nuke is used to threaten, it would be used You have to be trustable to own a nuke too:)

 

The prison population rises because the countries getting worse, not that the length of sentaces is long enough. I actually believe people shuld be fined for things as well as put away too, and if they can't pay, then they must work for it.

[BlueStar]

Well ornamental swords don't have any more use than replica guns apart from the collectors side of things (you certainly wouldn't want to duel with them). And we've estalished swords being used in crime right across the country.

 

In terms of prison, I think the main problem is that it doesn't work in terms of reducing crime. It's a punishment, but I think punishment is secondry to actually stopping people reoffending - and I don't think harsher sentences makes makes much of a difference, American states with the death penalty certainly don't have lower murder rates. People tend to come out of prison just as likely to reoffend as they went in. I think more emphasis should be put on helping people get off hard drugs and giving them training so they can contribute to society and earn a living on release instead of reverting back to funding their lives through crime immediately on release. It's all very well saying lock people up for 10 years in a 2 by 2 cell with bread and water, but if they come out exactly the same as they went in then nothing's acheived at all. And unless everyone who commits a crime is going to be locked up indefinitely, turning the UK into a floating prison colony, we have to deal with the reality that most prisoners are going to be released at some point.

[Chris the great]

drugs controle peoples actions, people controle a sword. as long as the person weilding it isnt crazy enough to kill, there no more dangerous then a camara. If you leave a sword in a room fullof people, you won't enter to find them all dead with the sword grinning in the corner.

 

It just seems like a punnishment thats being forced on every one because certain people can't help them selves from being violent. the swords arn't the problem, certainmembers of the society have the problem. Imagine that a few people every year were beated todeath with games consoles, would you say that games should be made ilegal?

[BlueStar]

Alcohol is a drug which "controles" people actions as well though - does that get banned? You see, I have no problem with people who are completely straight edge harping on about intoxicants but people who have totally polar opposite reactions to booze and other recreational drugs I find to be hypocrits to be honest - especially when they give the impression that anyone who takes a 'drug' (ranging from poppers to weed to heroin and crystal meth) immediately becomes some kind of uncontrollable monster.

 

I doubt if you left people in a room with a sword and a big bag of weed you'd find a scene of slaughter either.

[4q2]

Alchohol would have been banned or have been on the cards a long time ago if it wasnt for its widespread usage and therefore a subject people understand.

 

As illustrated various groups within society think they know it all (ie. drugs) without actually having any real experience....they will condemn until the cows come home and they are not bothered about the real truth.

I can drink without wanting to knock 10 shades out of a person, its a small amount of people who have a problem with going too far, and that is understood by a large part of society, hence the reason for it being a tolerated vice.

Drugs do not control peoples reactions. I admit at various points in my life I have done everything other than heroin, and not once have I lost control of my thoughts, mugged or harmed another person, sold substances to anyone else, and strangely enough neither has any one friend of mine.

In fact drugs have been around in usage longer than weapons, and it never caused the downfall of civilisation before, the difference now is the material value of them and the law that forces that value up.

 

To my knowledge anyone I know who owns ornamental or real swords have not used them to commit crime.....

 

There is a good answer for all the above, its because the people involved were responsible and educated and actually have morals.

 

So to sum it all up:

Minorities of people can fuck things up for everyone.

 

Alcohol can be drunk by irresponsible people and there can be a million crimes committed off the back of it.

Drugs can be taken by irresponsible people and ditto.

Swords can be owned by irresponsible people and ditto again.

Cars can be driven by irresponsible people.....

Bricks can be flung by irresponsible people.....

 

The list can go on, but the whole point is you cannot really cry about the law pissing on your strawberries when you end up being part of that minority.

[Sooj]

I have one very big indian sword, eagles and what not are crafted into it etc etc which I bought from india early last year (funnily enough) and I hope to buy a few more so I'm signing it.

 

Swords are really cool, they have that wow factor that nobody can resist.

[Rummy]

That does sound pretty cool Sooj, you got a picture?

[Flaight]

Having a sword doesn't usually mean you are swinging it around to cut yourself and others. On the other hand, if you have drugs you are likely to be using them. So... by default (and I emphasise that "default"), the comparison is not one-to-one.

 

If we are to assume that owning a sword means you're self-harming etc, again there is still quite a difference. High-end drugs in particular impact your brain so profoundly and that comes with no particular effort other than taking them. Swords, in contrast, require much further deliberation to create comparable negativity. This contrast becomes particularly noticeable when you extend this further to include larger fraction of the society. It explains why there is zero-tolerance law on drugs in some parts of the world.

 

I think the crux of all this is, Swords are a particular problem. Drugs are a general problem. So their scope is fundamentally different.

 

But anyway, it's a senseless comparison, I don't understand why this is boiling over like this here.

[Rick Dangerous]

Alchohol would have been banned or have been on the cards a long time ago if it wasnt for its widespread usage and therefore a subject people understand.

 

As illustrated various groups within society think they know it all (ie. drugs) without actually having any real experience....they will condemn until the cows come home and they are not bothered about the real truth.

I can drink without wanting to knock 10 shades out of a person, its a small amount of people who have a problem with going too far, and that is understood by a large part of society, hence the reason for it being a tolerated vice.

Drugs do not control peoples reactions. I admit at various points in my life I have done everything other than heroin, and not once have I lost control of my thoughts, mugged or harmed another person, sold substances to anyone else, and strangely enough neither has any one friend of mine.

In fact drugs have been around in usage longer than weapons, and it never caused the downfall of civilisation before, the difference now is the material value of them and the law that forces that value up.

 

To my knowledge anyone I know who owns ornamental or real swords have not used them to commit crime.....

 

There is a good answer for all the above, its because the people involved were responsible and educated and actually have morals.

 

So to sum it all up:

Minorities of people can fuck things up for everyone.

 

Alcohol can be drunk by irresponsible people and there can be a million crimes committed off the back of it.

Drugs can be taken by irresponsible people and ditto.

Swords can be owned by irresponsible people and ditto again.

Cars can be driven by irresponsible people.....

Bricks can be flung by irresponsible people.....

 

The list can go on, but the whole point is you cannot really cry about the law pissing on your strawberries when you end up being part of that minority.

 

Yay someone with more than half a brain cell working! You have slightly restored my faith in humanity. I like to add if you ban something the problem doesn't go away it just gets pushed underground both in the case of drugs and weapons this can only be a bad thing.

[Chris the great]

im sorry, can't complain the law is pissing on your strawberrires when you end up beign part of the minority?

 

how come schools are required to have a vegitarian menu? why is there such a cuffuffle about not offending religious groups, why is the term spider diagrams now deemed "offencive to animals" (im not kidding about that)

 

the fact is that no matter how small a minority is, the members still have rights, and i feel that my rights would be violated if i wasnt alowed to collect swords when its perfectly legal to collect gun.

 

im not saying that swords arent dangerous, but so are guns! if there are worries about them falling into the wrong hands, sort out a licencing system, but then i suppose there are pleanty of people without gun licences owning them in the gengs.

[4q2]

Flaight, I understand what you are saying, but it does all come down to the same thing.....responsibility of the owner or user, its the reason these laws are forced into play. When this all goes through either of the two groups involved are criminals once caught in posession, that is where it is one to one.

 

'High-end drugs' (by this I presume you mean class A) can have a profound negative effect on the brain if done irresponsibly. The very society you live in can also do that too just by living in it. Stress can do the same. Again the list is never ending, I could go on forever with things that arent drug based can cause the same effect.

 

If you think it is irrelevant to the whole subject, then fine....to me criminalisation of something that could be abused is one and the same subject. Drugs are sat in here as an example of how peoples perceptions turn hypocritical when the law affects them.

 

Rick Dangerous....Its nice to see one with an open minded perception : peace:

 

Chris, Guns arent legal to collect unless they are dummy replicas (and if the law gets its way on that it'll soon be a thing of the past with the recent furore over BB guns and the like). Even replicas could get your house busted down by the police. Swords can easily be ground to a point, I mean what is saying that the swords you collect arent sharpened ?

What is saying that after a particularly stressful event you wouldnt wield that sword in a way society deems menacing (regardless of license)....

Add to that how could you really issue a license to sword collectors ?

It would only give an address of where swords are kept and taking some kind of psychiatric test to collect something does not seem right (some would argue collectiong is a form of mania anyway)

 

If the minority is small......why cant responsible people legally take drugs in their own homes and why is that particular group devoid/violated of rights ?

 

Swings and roundabouts comes to mind.

[Flaight]

'High-end drugs' (by this I presume you mean class A) can have a profound negative effect on the brain if done irresponsibly. The very society you live in can also do that too just by living in it. Stress can do the same. Again the list is never ending, I could go on forever with things that arent drug based can cause the same effect.

Then the general medical profession and you have a profound difference of opinion.

 

On Newsnight early in 2006 there was a brief programme that debated on the effect of drugs, especially class A, and the professional opinion was clear - it has a chemical impact that is beyond human descipline beginning from a small amount. Of course any random individual could get away with taking one without an enduring effect, but bio-chemistry dictates that the resultant statistics on the masses is significant because of those drugs' chemical potency on one's habit. In principle, hanging several swords in your bedroom wall (or carrying them) does not even come close to being comparable.

 

I understand that your view is, ultimately, individual's sense of responsibility is what dictates how sensibly something is used (in fact my opinion stated in my post earlier agrees with you). I just wish you didn't make such effort to draw a line between swords and drugs. If anything, it makes your point less clear.

[Kurtle Squad]

It would only give an address of where swords are kept and taking some kind of psychiatric test to collect something does not seem right (some would argue collectiong is a form of mania anyway)

Collecting is just a harmless psycological thing, especially in males; I expect you don't even have to be directly collecting things to show signs of similar behaviour.

[McPhee]

How did this thread end up with drugs being compared to swords? Only read the first 2 pages...

 

IMHO Swords shouldn't be banned.

My reasons:

1. Sword collecting is a legitimate hobby. Also quite an expensive one if you're collecting proper well-made ones. So far there is no evidence to link these collectors items to killings.

2. Sword fighting is a legitimate sport. Should Fencing, Kendo & other sword sports be banned? They're good exercise and they teach skills that are used in every day life (physical + mental control, hand-eye co-ordination etc.)

3. To the best of my knowledge the sword killings that have gone by so far have been done by idiots who, if swords weren't available, would have picked up a different weapon.

 

Swords dont kill people, people kill people. Take the sword out of a murderers hand and he(or she) will pick up a knife.

Simply put this is our governments way of delaying the problem (again). They need to look like they're doing something so they ban swords. Why swords? Because guns are already banned and a knife ban would cause them too much trouble.

 

I'm quite worried by this ban, its bringing a question over the future of one of my favorite hobbies (fencing)

[Chris the great]

The solution is clear. Ban hands.

[4q2]

Then the general medical profession and you have a profound difference of opinion.

 

On Newsnight early in 2006 there was a brief programme that debated on the effect of drugs, especially class A, and the professional opinion was clear - it has a chemical impact that is beyond human descipline beginning from a small amount. Of course any random individual could get away with taking one without an enduring effect, but bio-chemistry dictates that the resultant statistics on the masses is significant because of those drugs' chemical potency on one's habit.

 

But to the same effect a World Health organisation report stated that the only lethal dose of cannabis would be "a 1 ton lump dropped directly onto someones head from a great height" (Untelevised of course....not sensational enough imho). In the same percentage of cases carbon monoxide can have effect on brain chemistry, so can prozac, so can an unhealthy love of swords or anything weapons related...My scientific theories on this subject are based on reality, not a thesis of what happens when a lab-rat is pumped with half its bodyweight in MDMA or a spider is spike fed with methyl-amphetamine.

You are open to your own opinions on the subject, but I can bet most is formed from a million and one sources that are biased into looking for ill effects as opposed to the positive aspects. (For unbiased accounts and experimentation try erowid.org rather than asking 'Frank')

The reason for banning swords is also based on research looking for their negative impact as opposed to their positive. (end of drugs/swords example)

 

Back on track and as I have already stated though, Im not against sword ownership (I am part of that group), I am not against people drinking alchocol, I am not against societies use of prostitutes. As long as it does not infringe on on an unwilling person I am fine with it, but you just have to sit and accept if its on the books to be made illegal, then so be it, cause rioting in the street certainly wouldnt help a case like the one in question......no amount of signing petitions will change that when it is seen as there is some potential to go wrong.

 

I understand I am in the wrong place to debate the usage of drugs, I anticipated and mentioned it in the first post I made about using drugs as an example to how society psychologically acts to the issues of what should be illegal and what shouldnt be and got the response I expected, it may take a while for people to understand what I have been saying and its relationship to the subject, it may never be understood.

I also understand that being in a forum that has a high intake of martial arts and manga/Japan culture and paraphenalia I will come across plenty of reasons why swords should be legal to keep.

 

The moral of all this:

Just let it all serve as a warning that if each little group of do-gooders in society keep getting their way there will be nothing left to enjoy....

Tolerance within reason is what the world needs, and this generation has the power to turn that around. If it had have been that way before modern society started acting like a bunch of self righteous know it alls, this thread wouldnt have existed in the first place.

[Kurtle Squad]

I am not against societies use of prostitutes.

Neither am I; I don't see ANY reason for the illegality of them...

(I'm not saying I'd use one:heh:)

 

The moral of all this:

Just let it all serve as a warning that if each little group of do-gooders in society keep getting their way there will be nothing left to enjoy....

Yep, and I've known that since forever; it's part of the cause of everything bad in our country, whether directly, or indirectly through a domino effect.

[Flaight]

I anticipated and mentioned it in the first post I made about using drugs as an example to how society psychologically acts to the issues of what should be illegal and what shouldnt be and got the response I expected, it may take a while for people to understand what I have been saying and its relationship to the subject, it may never be understood.

Yes, I think I understand. That anticipation would've had me leaving it out in the first place...!

 

Anyway. I don't know if banning will ever be the answer. I'm generally against banning. The reason why I have mixed feelings is because there is a common denominator to many problems today. I'll try explain it in a paragraph.

 

Freedom came about as a result of people being responsible and considerate of one another. Then after decades freedom gained its own status as 'human rights' and became an independent concept. Then we lost the sense of responsibility. So now, we have both freedom and irresponsibility, which are contradictory. Now we are seeing side effects of this "clash".

 

I think the act of banning is a response to this paradox. A short term fix, sort of thing.

[That dude]

Fools! Haven't you seen Kill Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!