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Commercialism, Capitalism, Communism, Anarchism, and a bit of Buddha love

Dante

By Dante
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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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I suppose its an understandable confusion. I'm aware capitalism tries to make us not think, and I do enjoy capitalism. However I am not trying to find any sort of spiritual enlightenment but that doesn't mean I don't wish to think. In fact, I think if capitalism and its gains were taken away I probably would aspire toward knowledge, just the academic not religious type.

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jayseven Newbie

jayseven

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Wildesque...

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(and I believe it was supposed to suggest you never can be perfect, but have to keep trying)

 

Wildesque in itself kinda suggests "yeah, it's not an actual Wilde quote, but similar in a certain way", and then after I described it that way, I went on to say specifically why I thought it was similar, ja?
I'm aware of the goal of capitalism thank you but I think even if you removed capitalism and capitalistic gains from my life I would still be bored, still strive for something more. Ultimately I don't think I'd be happy with just my life. It would be boring. To live in the here and now, never try and do any better. If you're not striving for perfection you may as well be dead because then, you have nothing to go for. Thats it. Die. Now. We are not swans, we're sharks.
There's a lot of points in here.

 

- Of course you would still strive. That's kinda human nature, right? But that you equate 'better' with material goods, and material goods with 'perfection' worries me.

 

 

 

I'll have you know I'm not hungry for a new iPod thanks. I don't need the extra space. Granted I may sometimes gadgetlust over something but I am quite sensible, I'll buy a new iPod/phone/whatever when I need one, not when a shiny new one comes out. I'm not Jordan thanks very much :heh:
A moot point. whenever you 'need' one isn't really when you need it though, is it? I can't really argue with you personally on this without looking at your bank statements and tutting and shaking my head a lot. And, of course, your 'need' is a complex thing in itself with social, personal and other reasons behind it -- but I'll still say that your 'need' is far closer to 'want' than you'll ever admit to, and far more to do with commercialism than you even know (but yeah, not as bad as a lot of people :P). Sorry - my arguing style is sort of attacking 'you' and 'your kind' without specifying far too much. 'You' are, in this thread, the avatar of 'your kind', hence far too much stupid generalisation that belittles us into petit focus.

 

Of course choice is false, of course capitalism numbs our ambitions. I think there's an over willingness to blame capitalism/advertising but I wasn't just raised on adverts. Hell, until 3 or 4 they're all just flashing pictures. Don't go italicising and SHOUTING to try and make yourself look like some kind of mad genius :heh:
If you think your ambitions are numbed, then just think how much closer to perfection you'd be without it! How much happier! Lol. Adverts, the media, kids TV, the shape of cars, fashion, whatever -- I'm just saying we, the consumer, have no say in it besides buying what we like, based on what 'target consumer group' we best fit into anyway. Sure we're all individual, but only so far as a box of 12 crayolas are all different.

 

And yeah, I can't meditate or sleep well either. Too much rambling through my mind about one thing or another. Its a general thing with me really; I can't rest because I always feel like there is more I could be doing. Its why I prefer TV because watching films alone part way through I tend to get thinking "I could be doing this..." Ants in my pants as my nan would say.
I love sleep and dreams! Dreams are one of my favourite things. Totally free, totally natural wild hallucinations that you have no control over, that you've created yet they have almost a will of their own, twisting and turning your emotions in ways you weren't expecting.

 

When I talk about meditation I'm talking about a wide range of things. Ultimately there's a conflict between the speed our mind is processing such a volume of data and the speed our communication/schematic labelling works. Meditating allows us to communicate between the different thought processes. 'Getting to know yourself', or whatever you want to call it, makes you feel stronger and safer and more able. Makes you nicer and more understanding of others. And it's fuggin' free.

Exactly, desire can be a very good thing.

 

We shouldn't shy away from being upset or unhappy for periods if it leads to us improving ourselves for the better. If we are unhappy with our jobs, we will improve. If we just tell ourselves to be happy and care free, nothing will change and we will go nowhere.

 

Direction is very important, so if I came across a fork in the road, I'd think long and hard about it.

It's not about repeating some mantra like that. You say that if you're unhappy with a job then it's a good thing because it leads to improvement. I'm saying that action, that desire to improve is pretty much you telling yourself "I want to be happy and care free, not unhappy and weighed down with this job. I need to do something."

 

Maybe we're all just labelling different things the same, and the same things different!

Im with Ashley in that i welcome anything that distracts me from thinking too deep and would also point out that everyone posting here is doing so via a heavily advertised, capitalist-born computer

 

More evidence for our mismash of ideas.

 

Glad to see the hypocrite point :P Very valid. I think I'm more spiritual than others (I certainly have a less, but not missing, material life), and that there are others totally moreso than me who don't exist in the material world at all. I certainly like certain elements of capitalism, but I certainly dislike other elements. That I'm sitting on a 4-year-old laptop that is broken in about 7 different ways and not feeling like I NEED a new one proves, if only to me, that I'm not as bad as others.

 

My earlier point is that I can't lead the life I want to lead. Nobody will give me three acres of land, so I guess I have to play the capitalist game to get it. Only still once I have my land, I have to play the government's game. Follow laws. Obey someone else. Never be my own man. But I can be my own soul! I can at least see that this isn't the highest point of humanity, and I can see that capitalism will never be able to get there. Most people tend to think "well it ain't happening in my lifetime, and I am only one person after all, so I'm just gonna sit here and not give a crap." Well that's fine, it's your life. Ultimately I'm only here on this planet to feel content with mine, and you with yours. I'm just going to sit here and feel like I have the best of both worlds, and stuff.

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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I'd say in contemporary society having to be around the general public, be it on transport, in shopping centres etc, some form of musical device is needed :heh: Okay its a want, but I never upgrade because I want, I upgrade because what I previously wanted is now dead for whatever reason. And what does my bank balance have to do with anything? :heh:

 

My passion and my interest is creative, specifically animation at the moment but it flipflops, so adverts actually fuel me. I can read them and disregard their messages. I've spent the last 6 years studying the art of media message making and the process of rejection. But when I see an advert I don't see the product as such, I see the art style, the direction, the way in which the message is communicated etc etc.

 

As you say its all different things. I get happiness and a sense of reward from my creative pursuits and yes, I enjoy buying new things and using money to go places. And you enjoy late nights, lie-ins and drinking (amongst other things obviously such as reading and poetry and whatnot) and to me that's as frivolous as capitalism. Its another form of mental sedation. Each their own :)

 

But are you not upgrading your laptop because you would rather spend the money elsewhere which isn't so much getting one up on capitalism, its active choice in how to use capitalism.

 

And I normally enjoy my dreams but they keep featuring my uncle lately and I hate that my unconscience is giving thought to that worthless cunt ^_^

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jayseven Newbie

jayseven

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Well I think a lot of the points we have are the same, and we can either get more personal with them and try and define our own existense, or go larger and try and think how theoretically we ought to, or could, live.

 

For example, something I said earlier; if there was no further creative progress, be it in the arts or with technology, would it be so bad? Would you get bored, or would our tastes become more refined as we get the chance to read those books, watch those films, or whatever? The 'more IS progress' mentality of capitalism prevents us from getting the most out of the present standard, so maybe tomorrow's standard is a step in the wrong direction... *shrugs*

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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Are you saying if come tomorrow nothing creative was ever created again would we get bored? I'll uncharacteristically answer an obviously-never-going-to-happen hypothetical and say no, as you yourself have said (I think...) we'd just delve into the back catalogue. But that's still more to make progress, its just more of the past rather than more new stuff.

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jayseven Newbie

jayseven

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Ok, so I'm not being argumentative anymore as this is a train of thought I genuinely don't know where I stand yet, without more definition anyway.

 

If we could be content with what we have now, or content with what is to come, then why do we choose what is to come? Is it because we know someone else has already (probably) fully experienced everything there is past and present?

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MoogleViper Newbie

MoogleViper

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The more stuff you have the more stuff you want. The further we advance technologically, the more we need advancement. Personally I think we would get bored. We've come far enough that we need more. We're always waiting for the next step, the newer model, the harder, better, faster, stronger. Whereas would A.D. people feel the same? You may argue that they wouldn't due to their lack of knowledge and experience. But what about modern day people who live without technology? People who live in the rainforests, deserts, Arctic etc. They know of technology yet do not strive for it. Who has the better existence? Who is the happiest?

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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If we could be content with what we have now, or content with what is to come, then why do we choose what is to come? Is it because we know someone else has already (probably) fully experienced everything there is past and present?

 

First sentence; is that a genuine "or" question or (...) is it just the wording making me think; what the hell kind of question is that? :heh: If we could be content now or have more why would anyone choose to just have what they have now. I don't think anyone could claim they have everything they want in life just perfectly (where this mentality spawns from is a different matter). But are you saying "that's it, what you have here and now is it" (kinda like Jericho in a way...supplies dwindling and what not) or "that's it, you won't get any more but you'll continue to get what you have now as regularly as you currently do"?

 

Second sentence: I don't see how it relates to the first personally but I doubt anyone has ever experienced everything.

 

To touch upon Moggle's final point; don't they strive to live. Aren't we all striving to live? Isn't it just we have different components. You can't really compare, particularly something like happiness, as its not quantifiable.

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MoogleViper Newbie

MoogleViper

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First sentence; is that a genuine "or" question or (...) is it just the wording making me think; what the hell kind of question is that? :heh: If we could be content now or have more why would anyone choose to just have what they have now. I don't think anyone could claim they have everything they want in life just perfectly (where this mentality spawns from is a different matter). But are you saying "that's it, what you have here and now is it" (kinda like Jericho in a way...supplies dwindling and what not) or "that's it, you won't get any more but you'll continue to get what you have now as regularly as you currently do"?

 

Why would you not rather be content with what you have? What's the point in wanting more just for the sake of wanting? Or for the sake of advancement? Why advance if it isn't going to make you happy? You'd rather be rich and sad than poor and happy?

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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Why would you not rather be content with what you have? What's the point in wanting more just for the sake of wanting? Or for the sake of advancement? Why advance if it isn't going to make you happy? You'd rather be rich and sad than poor and happy?

 

I suppose its just different mindsets but as I look at it; I'm 22. If this is it, if I have no more until I die, at hopefully a good age, surely everyone would get bored. To go the next 50-70 years without nothing more?

 

As I look at it we should advance because we can. If you're happy fine, but I can't see myself happy just sitting around going "ho hum this is a nice life". I'd like to know what else is out there, what is possible and to push the limits in my own personal ways.

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MoogleViper Newbie

MoogleViper

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I suppose its just different mindsets but as I look at it; I'm 22. If this is it, if I have no more until I die, at hopefully a good age, surely everyone would get bored. To go the next 50-70 years without nothing more?

 

As I look at it we should advance because we can. If you're happy fine, but I can't see myself happy just sitting around going "ho hum this is a nice life". I'd like to know what else is out there, what is possible and to push the limits in my own personal ways.

 

But wasn't that Jay's point or did I misread? The fact that you would be happy with nothing more (hypothetically of course).

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jayseven Newbie

jayseven

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First sentence; maybe 'content' was teh wrong word... I think I'm trying to say that most people would rather keep the floodgates open and see what the future brings than to go through the back-catalogue of things.

 

In this hypothetical world then we would continue to live on the same amount of fuel, food, etc, with no increases or decreases :P

 

Second sentence; I don't mean one individual who has experienced all, more that all things have been experienced by someone or other.

 

Moogles points; I think you can compare 'content' more than happiness, which is why I've tried to squeeze that word in everywhere. I would say a closed community is more content because there is less 'greener grass' syndrome around. But I don't think we're capable of being happier than their happiest, nor do I think that we can be happier than any past individual's max potential either. All that changes is the cultural outline of this is what makes you happy.

 

That 'the more stuff we have, the more we want' thing; it's true, but why? What element can we say is 'human' and what can we say is, if at all, the 'fault' of the direction our society has gone in? I personally think that we are certainly greedier than we need to be, and I also thinkthere's an element of force (brainwashing being too strong and conspiring a term)... a subversion involved. Ashley; you said yourself you watch adverts to see how they convey their message -- and that's it. Advertising is basically "you are uglier/worse off without this product." They never directly say that sort of thing, but they suggest it with the trillion methods they have -- and these methods have been attuned over decades. Manipulation, bros.

 

And I think we get bored, excited, aroused, upset, elated and all those other ones no matter what new/old stuff there is. Because we're human.

 

That basic life is what we are. The rest is decoration. Except with capitalism we don't get any say in the decoration, and the decorators have assured us in very convincing terms that these are the best decorations for us, so we're cool with that.

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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Ashley; you said yourself you watch adverts to see how they convey their message -- and that's it. Advertising is basically "you are uglier/worse off without this product." They never directly say that sort of thing, but they suggest it with the trillion methods they have -- and these methods have been attuned over decades. Manipulation, bros.

 

Ignoring the obvious 'well duh' reply; "and that's it" meaning "and that is all advertising does" or "and that is all you read from it"? Because the latter certainly isn't true. Advertising doesn't just affect or not affect. Its a spectrum. And its individual, both with the sender and receiver of the message. Furthermore it depends on the product itself. A car advert, any car advert, doesn't make me want a car even if it looks as swish as a Merc, is as safe as a Volvo or has gadgets as numerous as Dick Dasterdly's because I'm not in the market for a car (arguably 'provable' because I don't know any difference between one car and the next, and I couldn't tell you what cars are featured in that 'spot 56 whatevers' and 'we have it in neewyar' adverts which are two of the most prominent at present). I however interpret them for their artistic merit, or lack thereof.

 

Again, I have studied advertising in depth. Don't need to tell me about manipulation bro :heh:

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Ashley Enthusiast

Ashley

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So do you think you're immune to manipulation, and do you think it's ok for manipulation to occur?

 

EDIT: Seperated questions^

 

The majority of the time I am able to actively interpret an advert yes. There are times, as with anyone, where I just switch off but I think even then its a case of washing over me. Its like I never read a news story and believe it at face value.

 

And yes.

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