MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 for me, the welfare state is one of the things that's actually good about this country. I beleive that the rich and prosperous should be taxed to help those at a genuine disadvantage in life, with the aim of helping them achieve an independent life. I dislike the idea of the system being abused as much as the next person, but the principal of a strong state is something I beleive in. If you want to see why it's good, just look at america and the massive problems of a captialist welfare system. I agree. but it should be used to help people who contribute to society. not to fund drug habits and layabout criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 well, yeah. That's an educational problem though, not one of the welfare state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheikah Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 No, i just recognise the tories as oppotunistic, say anything toffs who'll glady say just about anything to get in on popularity contests, no matter how groundless and empty their proposals are. They stand for little, and what they do stand for is bad, unless you're a silverspooned, upper % ****. They're agaisnt everything I stand for, politically, i hold them personally responsible for most of the bad things to happen to my city and most of my region, and the thought of them in power is so god damn depessing that i might just leave. They also have a party leader who looks like a shiny new potato with a smug grin scribbled on it by a stupid child. But you said you are morally opposed to everything they do. To say that about everything they do (e.g. backing banning bottled water for environmental reasons, proposing green taxes etc) is ridiculous. Are you morally against conserving the environment as well as some other ideas which definitely seem sensible? Do your morals instead agree with tripling the cost of University fees? You could say that Conservatives are for silverspooned bints, I could say Labour are for lazy poor people. Now, where do silly generalisations like that get us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 well considering I'm right, about as far as this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Because he is hilarious and we need hilarious people in charge. So, with this said, why the heck do we complain when our leaders turn out to be villains in smart clothing? (idiots vote for idiots...Fact). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamba Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 for me, the welfare state is one of the things that's actually good about this country. I beleive that the rich and prosperous should be taxed to help those at a genuine disadvantage in life, with the aim of helping them achieve an independent life. I dislike the idea of the system being abused as much as the next person, but the principal of a strong state is something I beleive in. If you want to see why it's good, just look at america and the massive problems of a captialist welfare system. I understand the benefit of the welfare state but I think that it is something that should only be an assisstance. Many people with disabilties can work and many companies have a legal requirement to have them. I'm all for helping them to an extent as they obviously can't get jobs as easily. The problem with welfare is that it is a safety net for people. It takes away that pressure that means that people have to work and earn to survive. With the net there, they lose a sense of responsibility to help themselves. I live in the North East now and the abuse of the system that goes on here is at a gross level. Not to mention very few people understand that if you want money you have to earn and save it not spend it on getting pissed down the put 4 days a week or by buying an HD fucking tv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Yeah while like I say, it's a problem of stupid people, not a stupid system. I think there's something serioiusly wrong in this country with reguards to a culture of responsibility and empathy, but it's not the fault of the welfare state. I'm not even sure who's fault it is, but it's a very big one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Not to mention very few people understand that if you want money you have to earn and save it not spend it on getting pissed down the put 4 days a week or by buying an HD fucking tv. A-Fucking-greed! : peace: I've met too many stupid parents who complain about rent, bills etc...But whats the next responsible thing they do? They go out and buy a 42" HD Tv and brag about it....Fools! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Yeah while like I say, it's a problem of stupid people, not a stupid system. I think there's something serioiusly wrong in this country with reguards to a culture of responsibility and empathy, but it's not the fault of the welfare state. I'm not even sure who's fault it is, but it's a very big one. There will always be stupid people. The government should stop them from being able to be stupid. The problem is not with education. People can get more money more easily by sitting on their fat arses claiming benefits and being a **** to society than they can by working 9 to 5 for 5 days a week. If we let people be pricks then they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamba Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Yeah while like I say, it's a problem of stupid people, not a stupid system. I think there's something serioiusly wrong in this country with reguards to a culture of responsibility and empathy, but it's not the fault of the welfare state. I'm not even sure who's fault it is, but it's a very big one. Bullshit. The welfare state totally facilitates the problem and the fact that it is almost totally uncontrolled is the governments problem. Wake the fuck up. A big section of this country work hard and pay their tax and a screamingly large fraction of the population steal, yes steal that money from the government forcing them to increase income tax to compensate for the loss. Yes the theory of a welfare system is ok but the current welfare system is a shambles and Labour is making it worse. They have also taken no charge in the credit situation which is precipitated by bad mortgage agreements from the banks and scandolous projects from credit card companies. This puts the badly educated in huge debt which they cant pay off. It gives them seeming financial security and preys on the human nature of taking the easy way out. If the government had put a stop to this then that demographic wouldn't blow all their money on things that they think they can afford. Not to mention, the loans just make another safety net and absolve responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Of course, the problem with the tories is that they're quick to decry the welfare state for it's issues, but they don't offer any solutions- they'd just dispose of the poor and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheikah Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Of course, the problem with the tories is that they're quick to decry the welfare state for it's issues, but they don't offer any solutions- they'd just dispose of the poor and be done with it. What, they'd just say no more benefits to people not working? As if. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Which is why I keep saying that both Labour and Conservative are complete shit and we should all vote for the other parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 What, they'd just say no more benefits to people not working? As if. oh shit, I used hyperbole! To elaborate, the tories would probably prefer the american 'system' but offer no alternative system for us. Alot of talk and no action. That's why I can't stand them-their core ideology of 'selfish is good, fuck anyone under you' is utterly repugnant and I'm continually amazed anyone would ever vote for such repulsive practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 I'm continually amazed anyone would ever vote for such repulsive practices. but boris iz lolz!!!!11one1!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 If i shot him in the head, I'd go to prison. People don't appreciate a good deed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamba Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 oh shit, I used hyperbole! To elaborate, the tories would probably prefer the american 'system' but offer no alternative system for us. Alot of talk and no action. Wow predicting the future? That's a new one. Seriously, I understand the all of the parties lie but how do you know this? Honestly? The Tory suggested scheme of working for your benefits is a good idea. Are you basing your claims on how the Tories were when they were in power? That's why I can't stand them-their core ideology of 'selfish is good, fuck anyone under you' is utterly repugnant and I'm continually amazed anyone would ever vote for such repulsive practices. I've heard this crap before. It's the same hard-done-to talk that people pull when they don't actually have any reason to argue against the fact that hard working people on average earn more than people who don't. You angry resentment for people with money totally disgusts me. You have no inclination to actually understand what it is like for those who have earned what they have (which is the majority of the wealth in this country now). People like you judge how the wealthy earn their money even though they have done so by hard work. Many will use it to educate their children to give them better opportunities in their lives and you resent the fact that they have that due to their own actions and work. Labour have raised inherritance tax to a disturbing level now. It is getting increasingly pointless for people to earn large amounts of money over their lifetime as they cannot use it to help their families after they pass. There is no such thing as a family inheritted home now. So if I can't do that, why should I bother earning at all? Why should I get up and go get a job? I can live, earn and have a house by doing absolutely nothing. I don't need a job, suggests Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Labour have raised inherritance tax to a disturbing level now. It is getting increasingly pointless for people to earn large amounts of money over their lifetime as they cannot use it to help their families after they pass. There is no such thing as a family inheritted home now. So if I can't do that, why should I bother earning at all? Why should I get up and go get a job? I can live, earn and have a house by doing absolutely nothing. I don't need a job, suggests Labour. I agree. I agree with most tax but inheritance tax is a joke. When you earn money you pay tax on it. Fair enough. When you buy goods with said money you pay tax on it. Fair enough. But why should said money be taxed a third time through inheritance tax? It's a complete joke. That money has already been taxed when the deceased earned it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 I've heard this crap before. It's the same hard-done-to talk that people pull when they don't actually have any reason to argue against the fact that hard working people on average earn more than people who don't. You angry resentment for people with money totally disgusts me. You have no inclination to actually understand what it is like for those who have earned what they have (which is the majority of the wealth in this country now). People like you judge how the wealthy earn their money even though they have done so by hard work. Many will use it to educate their children to give them better opportunities in their lives and you resent the fact that they have that due to their own actions and work. Hahahahahaaha! right, for one thing I'm from a perfectly decent, middle class background with plenty to spare and I'm in my third year at university so fuck your assumptions. You seem to think I'm some kind of raving mad prole. As for judging people for having money? no. I judge people for being selfish, self serving wankers with no social conscience. I don't judge people for money, but you were quick enough to judge the lower classes (and presumably me) for being a bunch of parasites. my politics are nothing to do with my economic situation, I just believe in the responsibility of the rich to help the poor on fucking principal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheikah Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 and I'm in my third year at university so fuck your assumptions. Which means you narrowly missed the tripled yearly University fees. It's funny how people don't give a shit about what doesn't affect them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 what the hell has that got to do with this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheikah Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 The fact that you see flaws left, right and center with Conservatives, yet fail to care about Labour's tripling of University fees. This leaves people who wanted to better themselves with an increased, greater amount of debt. But given you missed the introduction of the top-up fees, it seems all but natural you completely failed to identify this problem with Labour. Blah blah blah, Conservatives this, Conservatives that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan_Dare Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 this, of course, assumes that I'm an ardent supporter of everything they do. besides, It's not that much money, and you don't even pay it untill you leave and earn enough to pay it back without any trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbob Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Conservatives won in my area, and they weren't even on the voting cards in Caldicot where i live. If they were, well thats where my vote would of gone to, as i don't vote Labour at all. I got confronted by 2 candidates trying to get last minute votes at the polling station by asking people who they are voting for, and i told them that if i told you, then you would be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamba Posted May 3, 2008 Share Posted May 3, 2008 Hahahahahaaha! right, for one thing I'm from a perfectly decent, middle class background with plenty to spare and I'm in my third year at university so fuck your assumptions. You seem to think I'm some kind of raving mad prole. As for judging people for having money? no. I judge people for being selfish, self serving wankers with no social conscience. I don't judge people for money, but you were quick enough to judge the lower classes (and presumably me) for being a bunch of parasites. OK, fair point, to some extent I was judging you as your smearing judgements of all those with above average wealth led me to think that you were doing so out of ignorance. But actually my point still stands, you fail to understand what it is like for that group of people, even if you are from within. If you look closely, I actually used the words "people like you" at a point with which I was referring to people who share your political views. I tried to word this carefully but you have obviously misunderstood. Also I haven't accused you or indeed any socio economic group of being a parasite. I'm fully away that there are decent hard working people in every group and there are lazy uncooperative selfish people too but you seem quite comfortable in smearing anyone with an above average income of being "greedy, selfish and selve serving". my politics are nothing to do with my economic situation, I just believe in the responsibility of the rich to help the poor on fucking principal. And this is why you are arrogant and presumptious. I'm personally fine with you having that view but you don't understand that people dont share those views. Your system forces everyone to charity (yes it is charity) their money irregardless of of their own personal views. To me, if a person earns their money then it is their choice with what to do with it. In my system, you still have the choice to help the needy which you could but in your system you would facelessly tear the money off everyone without even asking. Oh and congratulations on totally avoiding actually having any kind of discussion about the points which I put forward concerning your political views. Maybe politics is your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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