Oxigen_Waste Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 As a theory, Communism is perfect. In practise? Its horrific due to human nature. The Jardon said it all. It doesn't work because we are a horrible breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zechs Merquise Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 As a theory, Communism is perfect. In practise? Its horrific due to human nature. It is not perfect at all in theory. The theory assumes everyone is equal and we are all capable of the same, where as everyone is different and has different strengths and weaknesses which is why it fails. A theoy that doesn't work in practice is no good, thus a poor theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 It is not perfect at all in theory. The theory assumes everyone is equal and we are all capable of the same, where as everyone is different and has different strengths and weaknesses which is why it fails. Huh? (reads again)..... Huh?!? Surely that's not the case at all, in fact pretty much the exact opposite. Karl Marx coined the phrase "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." ie those who are most capable do more to support those who are weaker. Indeed you see this in things like socialised medicine, something which some Americans think makes us pinko commies. Those who are highly intelligent or physically strong or excellent footballers pay taxes from the jobs they find themselves doing to pay for the care and medicine of people who are, for example, brain damaged and can't feed and dress themselves never mind go out and earn £20,000pa. Capitalism however DOES like to present as its basis this myth that everyone is the same and everyone can "make it" if they just apply themselves. Of course the truth is that if there really was equal opportunity for all and everyone decided to "make it" then the whole basis of capitalism would crumble because it needs poor people doing menial jobs to support it. Thatcherite stuff like the poll tax is the kind of mentality that assumes we are all capable of the same and can all contribute the same to society (if society existed, which of course as Maggie pointed out to us, it doesn't). So John Terry pays the same amount as some starving pensioner war veteran who can barely pay his heating bill, completely ignoring things like the ability to pay. Cue riots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meta_Omega Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 I'm somewhere between a communist and socialist politically.Communism is branch of Socialism. The other, "peaceful", branch is Social Democracy. The thing that differs between the two is how they get in power, communists commit revolution whereas social democrats do it in a democratic fashion through voting and peaceful reforms. And about my opinion: What Jordan and Oxigen_Waste said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 It is not perfect at all in theory. The theory assumes everyone is equal and we are all capable of the same, where as everyone is different and has different strengths and weaknesses which is why it fails. A theoy that doesn't work in practice is no good, thus a poor theory. BlueStar already said it, but I just have to make sure. Did you really think that that was what communist equality meant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danny Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Capitalism however DOES like to present as its basis this myth that everyone is the same and everyone can "make it" if they just apply themselves. Of course the truth is that if there really was equal opportunity for all and everyone decided to "make it" then the whole basis of capitalism would crumble because it needs poor people doing menial jobs to support it. Everyone can make it in capilaism. Everyone as in an indervidual. As long as you apply yourself more than everyone else. But not everyone in the collective term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shino Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Everyone can make it in capilaism. Everyone as in an indervidual. As long as you apply yourself more than everyone else. But not everyone in the collective term. I think you missed the retard part of his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 As a theory, Communism is perfect. In practise? Its horrific due to human nature. Definatly no way is it perfect lets not be shifting all the blame onto humanity here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zechs Merquise Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Definatly no way is it perfect lets not be shifting all the blame onto humanity here. Too right. At least someone on hear doesn't live in political cloud cuckoo land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Too right. At least someone on hear doesn't live in political cloud cuckoo land. Precisely. This is isn't cloud cuckoo land because of human presence. Otherwise it would be. You said it all there. The ideology itself is absolutely flawless from every single point of view, but people aren't that perfect. We are flawed, hence, it can never work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Communism is branch of Socialism. The other, "peaceful", branch is Social Democracy. The thing that differs between the two is how they get in power, communists commit revolution whereas social democrats do it in a democratic fashion through voting and peaceful reforms. Actually, just to be precise, there are two main peaceful branches of socialism - democratic socialism and social democracy. The former seeks democratic legitimacy with the aim upon election of eradicating capitalism and implementing socialism. The latter also operate in the democratic process, but once in power, their aim is not to dismantle capitalism, but rather to incorporate socialist measures within the current system (eg. welfare, progressive taxation). And then of course there is the supposed 'third way', which is what the New Labour big-wigs talked up in the 1990s. It's questionable whether this was actually a serious ideology though, or just an attempt to give ideological credibility to New Labour's pragmatic agenda. The party dropped the phrase all together by the end of the 90's, so that probably says something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Precisely. This is isn't cloud cuckoo land because of human presence. Otherwise it would be. You said it all there. The ideology itself is absolutely flawless from every single point of view, but people aren't that perfect. We are flawed, hence, it can never work. Ok then in that case every political theory is perfect bar humans lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Precisely. This is isn't cloud cuckoo land because of human presence. Otherwise it would be. You said it all there. The ideology itself is absolutely flawless from every single point of view, but people aren't that perfect. We are flawed, hence, it can never work. So the ideology is perfect - except for the huge problem that it completely misunderstands people? (people being afterall what the ideology purports to serve/benefit) I think given the latter fact, 'fatally flawed' would be the only valid description. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Too right. At least someone on hear doesn't live in political cloud cuckoo land. Someone 'hear' is ignoring the post they made where they demonstrated that they didn't have the first clue what they were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 So the ideology is perfect - except for the huge problem that it completely misunderstands people? (people being afterall what the ideology purports to serve/benefit) I think given the latter fact, 'fatally flawed' would be the only valid description. Or not. If we made an effort as a community, it would work. It's not ignoring the fact that we're human, it just assumes that we're not scumbags, wich we sadly are. I'm not defending communism or anything, I'm not a communist, I'm just stating the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zechs Merquise Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Someone 'hear' is ignoring the post they made where they demonstrated that they didn't have the first clue what they were talking about. I disagree. I believe communism to be a sick ideology that whether it actually views everyone as equal, the fundamental aim is to make everyone equal. The failing of this is it is nigh-on impossible to raise the levels of the lowest to that of the highest, hence in communist societies so many are murdered - often the brightest and most free thinking - in an effort to reduce the population to the lowest common denominator. So the ideology is perfect - except for the huge problem that it completely misunderstands people? (people being afterall what the ideology purports to serve/benefit) I think given the latter fact, 'fatally flawed' would be the only valid description. Any theory that fails to account for a major variable is fatally flawed in the highest sense. Or not. If we made an effort as a community, it would work. It's not ignoring the fact that we're human, it just assumes that we're not scumbags, wich we sadly are. I'm not defending communism or anything, I'm not a communist, I'm just stating the facts. You've contradicted yourself you state communism 'assumes', well assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups. and Communism in every place it has been implemented turned out to be one big messy f*ck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 I disagree. I believe communism to be a sick ideology that whether it actually views everyone as equal, the fundamental aim is to make everyone equal. The failing of this is it is nigh-on impossible to raise the levels of the lowest to that of the highest, hence in communist societies so many are murdered - often the brightest and most free thinking - in an effort to reduce the population to the lowest common denominator. Jesus man, do you never think to, for instance, at least scan a wikipedia article or something before jumping in with both feet into an argument? Anyway, at least the Commies were on our side during the war, we'd have been proper fucked without them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mundi Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 The main flaw in communism are the flaws of man because it requires that everyone is equal and people in power tend to shift the balance. Because as most people should know power corrupts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zechs Merquise Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Jesus man, do you never think to, for instance, at least scan a wikipedia article or something before jumping in with both feet into an argument? Anyway, at least the Commies were on our side during the war, we'd have been proper fucked without them Yes, however the Soviets were shooting many thousands of their own people, other Eastern Europeans and in many cases their own troops. Infact, if you look back to WW2 Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way around. The whole war was started over the neutrality of Poland, of which large parts were actually former German soil inhabited by Germans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Jesus man, do you never think to, for instance, at least scan a wikipedia article or something before jumping in with both feet into an argument? Anyway, at least the Commies were on our side during the war, we'd have been proper fucked without them Yeh the Soviet Union helped us loads and we would have been in massive trouble without them. Your point is? I mean for god sake they were completley self serving they allied with Hitler. Hitler the Fascist! Then it was only when he betrayed them that they were forced to come to our side! Then after the war they annexed half of Europe. Having said that without them we would have been in big big trouble and frankly god knows what would have happened but I mean morally or however your tryna frame this not so good. And after the war they werent exactly big pals with us or eastern europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meta_Omega Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Hitler the Fascist! For your information, he was a Nazi, rather a National Socialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodleman Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Under Hitler the Nazis where only a socialist party by name. They where about as right wing as you can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 I mean for god sake they were completley self serving they allied with Hitler. Hitler the Fascist! Hold on, lets put this into a little context here http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSnazipact.htm In the 1930s Joseph Stalin became increasingly concerned that the Soviet Union would be invaded by Germany. Stalin believed the best way to of dealing with Germany was to form an anti-fascist alliance with countries in the west. Stalin argued that even Adolf Hitler would not start a war against a united Europe. Neville Chamberlain, the British prime minister, was not enthusiastic about forming an alliance with the Soviet Union. He wrote to a friend: "I must confess to the most profound distrust of Russia. I have no belief whatever in her ability to maintain an effective offensive, even if she wanted to. And I distrust her motives, which seem to me to have little connection with our ideas of liberty, and to be concerned only with getting everyone else by the ears." Winston Churchill, an outspoken critic of British foreign policy, agreed with Joseph Stalin: "There is no means of maintaining an eastern front against Nazi aggression without the active aid of Russia. Russian interests are deeply concerned in preventing Herr Hitler's designs on eastern Europe. It should still be possible to range all the States and peoples from the Baltic to the Black sea in one solid front against a new outrage of invasion. Such a front, if established in good heart, and with resolute and efficient military arrangements, combined with the strength of the Western Powers, may yet confront Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Ribbentrop, Goebbels and co. with forces the German people would be reluctant to challenge." Stalin's own interpretation of Britain's rejection of his plan for an antifascist alliance, was that they were involved in a plot with Germany against the Soviet Union. This belief was reinforced when Neville Chamberlain met with Adolf Hitler at Munich in September, 1938, and gave into his demands for the Sudetenland in Czechoslovakia. Joseph Stalin now believed that the main objective of British foreign policy was to encourage Germany to head east rather than west. Stalin realized that war with Germany was inevitable. However, to have any chance of victory he needed time to build up his armed forces. The only way he could obtain time was to do a deal with Hitler. Stalin was convinced that Hitler would not be foolish enough to fight a war on two fronts. If he could persuade Hitler to sign a peace treaty with the Soviet Union, Germany was likely to invade Western Europe instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin Posted November 14, 2007 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Oh my, this is all getting a bit serious isn't it? Let's all have a cup of tea and a chocolate digestive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 You've contradicted yourself you state communism 'assumes', well assumption is the mother of all f*ck ups. and Communism in every place it has been implemented turned out to be one big messy f*ck up. Nonetheless, it's our fault, not the ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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