Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

[Agent Gibbs]

This whole debate has got me watching loads of video's on youtube on the issue, and i've been enjoying the two video's of this woman so far

 

 

Its not specifically a counter to the objectification of women discussed in Anita's video, but provides a counter not argument, but train of thought on the objectification of men and women and the upsides and downsides to both

 

-8.09 in as i write this so it could go down hill...

 

could also be used in the gender discussion thread as she's now onto nature vs nurture

 

 

found another good video

 

Shamefully i was drawn to the video for her atire, thinking she was going to be literally arguing the title as her point....the irony of it all

 

but she makes a good point

Edited March 15, 2013 by Agent Gibbs

[Ville]

And to be honest if anyone ISN'T a feminist they're pretty fucking disgusting.

That's like saying that if you're not a Christian, you're fucking disgusting. I mean Christians wish for all people to be saved and be happy, don't you wish that? : o

If you believe men and women are born equal, you're a feminist so all these anti-feminism people don't really know what they're saying.

And if you believe in treating your fellow people with love and respect, you're basically a Christian.

 

Point #1: Why can't a man / woman believe in equality without having to sign to some ideology? It's exactly the same argument as people saying that you can't be a good human being without being a part of religion X. In other words, cramming your ideology down people's throats.

 

Point #2: If feminism really is the ultimate ideology of equality between men and women, then why is it called "feminism", i.e. "womanism"? Last time I checked, the human race consisted of 2 sexes, not 1. "Feminism" as a movement of equality is an oxymoron by just the name of it, and pretty telling of what the real emphasis behind it is... >_>

[Magnus]

And if you believe in treating your fellow people with love and respect, you're basically a Christian.

I can't stop laughing at this argument. :p

[Agent Gibbs]

JudgyBitch is an interesting read/view

 

(currently reading this one, after watching her hilarious rape culture video, theres a point there burried under the sameless advertising of her blog and hilarious "examples")

 

oh god i can't stop watching these video's now! i'm following all the liked links of the ones i've watched

Edited March 15, 2013 by Agent Gibbs

[Ville]

I can't stop laughing at this argument. :p

 

Yes, it has been a terrible blow for atheists around the world, not to mention the Satanists... ; D

[Agent Gibbs]

okay one more because i'm getting further away from tropes in video games and more towards the Feminism/humanism/equality debates and the hypocrisy spouted by all, but this THIS is a hilarious way to get your point across

 

[Rummy]

You say that like they need to be expanded upon.

 

Well yes, that's because they do; because I don't exactly get what YOUR point is.

 

This thread was about an original video titled Tropes Vs Women in Video Games. It focused on the Damsel in Distress trope. I have seen half the people in this thread however, rather than discuss the points made in the video, discuss the people around it.

 

A few people have argued counterpoints against the points in the video, or posted videos that present counterpoints.

 

Then a few people, such as yourself, haven't really said anything. Why are we posting here? I'd like some debate about the points being made tbh! Ok, original video makes points a b and c, but I feel they've invalid for points d e and f - ah yes, but have you considered h i or j?

 

You know, some real debate and discussion. Whilst I agree it's a point that can be argued to to many different conclusions, I'd still like to see that actually done in a discussion here!

 

 

 

You straw manned half the points of the video in your post too.

 

Having a problem with women as objects that need to be rescued by men basically means you wouldn't save your loved ones from a burning building.

- No. It said that you would want to rescue your loved ones from a burning building, and so why is it ridiculous to want to rescue them when kidnapped - even if it is by some weird dinosaur guy?

 

It's okay for games to be sexists as long as they sell.

- No. It said that these games were made as they were because they sell, it didn't say they're ok to be sexist - it said that capitalism didn't care.

 

 

Player characters can die in video games and that's sexist because they're usually men.

-No. It said that the male hero in these games tends to be worth less in that he has even less dialogue and is thrown away, his life is worthless. The damsel in question is not subjected to this. There is little to no pain and suffering shown on her part.

 

Blah blah comments are turned off blah.

-Blah blah, blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blahblah!

 

And my favorite: if you don't like it, make your own game.

-Why not?

 

Come on people, bring some discussion of the actual subject matter to the table!

[Magnus]

Well yes, that's because they do; because I don't exactly get what YOUR point is.

My point was that the video was ridiculous.

 

If you can't see that, then there's very little point in trying to discuss it, as has been shown time and time again in this thread. So excuse me for giving up and deciding to sit back with a bowl of popcorn and enjoying the whole 'discussion' on a purely ironic level instead.

[Rummy]

My point was that the video was ridiculous.

 

If you can't see that, then there's very little point in trying to discuss it, as has been shown time and time again in this thread. So excuse me for giving up and deciding to sit back with a bowl of popcorn and enjoying the whole 'discussion' on a purely ironic level instead.

 

Exactly the sort of response I expected. You've not tried to actually discuss any of your points in this thread, which leads me to conclude none of them actually hold much merit. Give it a go maybe, just for argument's sake eh?

[Ville]

@Magnus Come on man, it seems that 1) you're either afraid that we're gonna gut you alive if you argue your position, or 2) you think that we're total dumbasses that are beneath your godly opinions. I hope it's the former. I just don't get why you're so evasive, constant sniping but no explanation. I mean you do know that you can actually disagree with us, we're not gonna kill you even if think totally differently?

 

It's just that your arguments look extremely weak, when you don't bother / are too afraid to flesh them out at all. End result? A total waste of time... :/

[Magnus]

And yet Hamish knew exactly what I was talking about.

 

Funny that.

 

 

- No. It said that you would want to rescue your loved ones from a burning building, and so why is it ridiculous to want to rescue them when kidnapped - even if it is by some weird dinosaur guy?

It's completely separate to the point she's making. Men always saving women is sexist - who said anything about whether or not wanting to save a loved one is the normal thing to do? Why can't it be two women saving the hero's boyfriend? That's the issue. Not a five-minute rant about how weird she is for having not empathy for her loved ones.

 

- No. It said that these games were made as they were because they sell, it didn't say they're ok to be sexist - it said that capitalism didn't care.

Also completely irrelevant. Did she ever claim she didn't understand why sexist games are made? He makes this point twice, like it somehow negates the point she's making. She thinks there are too much sexism in games and wants there to be a change, but sexist games sell! So what?

 

-No. It said that the male hero in these games tends to be worth less in that he has even less dialogue and is thrown away, his life is worthless. The damsel in question is not subjected to this. There is little to no pain and suffering shown on her part.

He spent, like, a minute and a half showing different ways in which Dirk can die because it's so hard to be a video game hero and boohoo. Also, a lack of personality for the player avatar is hardly a strong argument for them being sexist. Chrono in Chrono Trigger has no personality to speak of, but that doesn't make him sexist. It's just a very common way to make it easier for the player to pretend it's them doing all that damsel saving. And even if we assume that the portrayal of Dirk in Dragon's Lair is sexist, that doesn't make the portrayal of Daphne less sexist. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Never mind the fact that it's entirely possible to get through the entire game without dying once and kicking butt the entire time, while Daphne always gets kidnapped and always spends the entire game waiting for be rescued.

 

-Blah blah, blah blah blah. Blah blah, blah blahblah!

Well, this is just needlessly passive-aggressive.

 

-Why not?

Why not indeed. Just like anyone who doesn't like Transformers 2 should make their own blockbuster. Why is it that people think that telling anyone who criticizes a work of fiction to go make their own game/write their own novel/film their own movie is a valid counter-argument? Maybe she does have some great ideas for video games and maybe one day she will make a video game of her own! But maybe she shouldn't have to? And maybe her points about gaming can be valid whether or not she has an interest in making her own game?

 

And on a side note, the title of the video is needlessly inflammatory and his explanation for it is complete bogus. That's the point where you should know not to take anything he says seriously.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Magnus

[Rummy]

That's more like it, and all I really wanted.

 

Now, I do agree with her, and your, points. However, her presentation I do no. Her examples as I said I feel are outdated. Zelda and Mario were concieved in what, the 80s? 30 years ago? Mario even more previously so as he's actually Popeye, which she raises herself. I'm not saying it should have happened then, but it did.

 

As said, I don't think it should happen now in Mario or Zelda not just for sexist reasons but because it's tired. Admittedly I am more disappointed it still happens in Zelda because they actually put more work into characters there, and I think it could be so much better if they gave Zelda a decent role other than just getting kidnapped/lost for once. There are exceptions to her examples in the Mario series, but the video tries to limit it to just the offending games of the 'core' mario(ie platform) titles. SMB2 has already been mentioned - the character was still female. NSMB has been mentioned - it was a technical issue apparently. SPM has been mentioned too; where they actually do turn it on itself and whilst she's kidnapped give her some actual agency in the game. Really it'd have been ideal if they'd had a third mario brother at some point who they were always rescuing - but then would there be a complaint of no female representation at all etc?

 

The capitilism vs sexism thing doesn't negate it no, not in any way. It is WHY it happens, and WHY it's hard to change. Starbucks and Amazon and many other corporations aren't paying their tax - does that make it ok? No. Is it difficult to fix? Yes. Why don't I fix it? Because I have little influence on the government. Why don't I take my money from the big corporations who bankroll them and bank ethically? Well, maybe I will.

 

I'm not saying we should give up trying to fix things in games either. This also runs on to the 'Why not make your own blockbuster?' - the games ARE being made to sell, and who's responsibility is it to step up and make the games that change things? The existing companies, with their existing franchises that already make them money? Or someone new to try and break the mold? If I was bankrolling the successful games, and someone came and said 'do this because it's politically correct' yet it'd affect my sales I'd tell them quite plainly no way. Should I spend potentially millions on a game with a female protagonist saving a male damsel in distress; potentially not making anything close to enough sales and wasting all that money? I'd say no. Who's to say such a game hasn't been done and flopped already? Mario sells because it was the genre definer of sorts, it did it and it did it right at the time - to try to just counter-damsel-in-distress it won't really work imo.

 

The only way forward IS for someone who opposes the idea to make the game. You say maybe she shouldn't have to, but as I said - why NOT? Why should someone else have to do it for her? Tomb raider exists with its female protagonist - someone made a move in that direction. Super Princess Peach was made, no? There's probably countless other examples so no, no she DOESN'T have to - but if she isn't happy with any of these and feels it still needs work then who else to do it? What about when a dev has a vision for a game type that just hasn't been done before? Would we say maybe they shouldn't have to? Who will, that's my question. This is a positive of the video, maybe it'll manage to encourage somebody to make the next big thing, with a suitably fantastic female lead as opposed to a male one.

[Hamishmash]

Super Princess Peach is an incredibly sexist game and shouldn't be used as a counter in this argument.

 

Mario and Luigi get super powers from flowers and stars and leaves and defeat their enemies with fire and jumping.

 

Peach gets her powers from being overly emotional.

[Ville]

Super Princess Peach is an incredibly sexist game and shouldn't be used as a counter in this argument.

 

Mario and Luigi get super powers from flowers and stars and leaves and defeat their enemies with fire and jumping.

 

Peach gets her powers from being overly emotional.

 

Well what would the alternative be then? They're clearly playing the "femininity" card in SPP, i.e. accentuating the fact that Peach is a woman. Alternatives might look a little something like this:

 

1) She gets her powers just like Mario and Luigi. Complaint would be that she's just a carbon copy, i.e. man with tits.

 

2) She has her own power-ups with which to destroy the enemies, probably something a bit more feminine. Complaint would be that they're too girly and thus condescending against the whole female gender.

 

3) She has some kickass powerups, not girly at all. Complaint would be that she's just a mindless destroyer now, not representative of a real, feeling woman o_O

 

4) She's a feeling, compassionate and wise woman, who instead of indulging in mindless battles with her enemies, negotiates and talks with them, resolving conflicts with her wit and downright awe-inspiring command of the (English) language, just like a real, truly empowered woman would do. Complaint would be that the game would be dead boring xD

 

In all seriousness, Hamish what kind of game would you make out of SPP?

[Rummy]

Oh, Ville made the 'Man with boobs' argument. What would you have Super Princess Peach be like, @Hamishmash Goddamit Ville stop asking my questions! That it might appeal to girls, and maybe boys, alike? Should we reskin a mario game with peach, or try something new, or a middle-ground of the two? I'm not saying it's the best example; but it DID feature Peach in her own title. As said, I'm interested to see what is said about it in the second part(or whenever it comes up), though I imagine it will still have criticisms. I foresee most of what is presented being in a negative light, but I'm hoping for more positives than just in one episode.

 

What are people's opinions of Zelda and Peach in titles like Smash Bros, or for the latter in Strikers? What's the opinion of Rosalina in Galaxy?

 

(i have really not played much mario in the last few years)

Edited March 16, 2013 by Rummy

[Yvonne]

You could make the same argument about people making documentaries like "the cove" etc. Why bother to do anything when that money isn't being used to cure cancer. It triggers my yawn reflex

 

Oh I did that thing where I read page 1 then replied and it appears on page 6. Oh dear!

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

If you believe men and women are born equal, you're a feminist

 

This is incorrect. Feminism is an ideology with theories and discourse that go far beyond simply believing men and women are equal.

[Yvonne]

It's the central point

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Granted, but it's certainly not all there is to feminism, and I simply cannot subscribe to the whole package.

[Magnus]

Unlike Christianity!

[Yvonne]

there is more to it, but it isn't a package. my feminism is different to someone elses

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Which is natural for an ideology. And that's exactly my point: It's an ideology; a set of beliefs. It's not merely a describing adjective with a clear definition, and as such you simply cannot assign it to people.

[Yvonne]

I'm also an atheist, but my atheism is probably quite different to many others

[Diageo]

Feminism

the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.

 

If that's the definition, just because you don't like the direction some of its members are taking doesn't change the definition.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

So you view atheism as an ideology? I think of it as purely descriptive, but I can see how the culture in atheist circles could be considered an ideology. However you choose to look at it, though, the point still stands: People cannot be assigned ideologies, they have to choose to identify with them.