Nintendork Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 Huge interview, I will bold some interesting points if you can't be arsed to read it all. Basically Iwata is interviewed to cover some unanswered territory. Not up for the size? Original interview can be found here. Nagata So, why did you originally decide to undertake this particular project? Iwata As I wrote in my introduction, I felt that we should accurately document the course that led to the creation of Wii. With Wii, Nintendo has taken the idea of breaking with the past and made a console with the somewhat overblown code name "Revolution", all in the hope of dramatically changing the way things are done. This was definitely not an easy path, and we often worked without being able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. I felt very strongly that I wanted to document this process. Of course, for people that want to know what ideas were behind the creation of Wii, this kind of record might be valuable and interesting, but I didn't want to force it upon other people that might not be interested in hearing it. That's why we decided to put it on Nintendo's homepage, so it would always be available to everyone who wants to read about it. We thought that this would be the ideal format to inform people about the history of Wii and the ideas that went into its development. Nagata What made you decide to interview your own employees? Iwata Put simply, I thought that the current structure of Nintendo would enable me to do it. As the president, I am involved in all of the final decisions regarding every aspect of the Wii project. Therefore, in objectively telling our readers how Wii was created, I thought it would be the most expedient option for me to lead the discussions. Although there are not many precedents for this kind of undertaking, I thought it would be possible with Nintendo's current structure. The biggest hurdle to overcome was taking all of the important points from our conversations and turning them into understandable, readable articles. I would like to make this point clear, so please leave it in the final draft! (laughs) I normally write all of my own speeches, and I don't feel comfortable unless I've prepared all of the materials for a presentation myself. But for this series of interviews, there was no way I could find the time to put together the articles myself. However, it isn't possible for myself or the people I am interviewing to always speak in a way that is clear and easy for the readers to understand. So I realised that we would need someone with good writing and composition skills in order to get this project off the ground. Well, I've known you since the time you worked at a gaming magazine, and since we still keep in touch with your work at the "Hobo Nichi"2, the first person that came to mind was you, Nagata-san. Nagata Well, thanks for thinking of me! (laughs) I'm finding the whole experience fascinating. Iwata If you don't mind, I'd like to ask you a question. What's it like to be present at these interviews? Nagata Well, firstly, I'd say that I was surprised to find out that in addition to the details of the Wii project, you also know the personalities of all your employees very well. Iwata I think that might be a bit of an overstatement! (laughs) With over 1300 employees here at Nintendo, it wouldn't be possible to remember everyone! Nagata Well, at least with the people involved in these interviews, I can sense that you have a mutual understanding of each other's personalities. Iwata That might be because Nintendo deals with a relatively limited range of products. Also, since I myself come from a development background, I think I understand the minds of developers better than most executives. Nagata I also got that impression. Iwata In addition to that, we brainstormed with each other from square one. We were all running into the same walls, and we made the critical decisions together. I talked with a lot of people, such as Takeda-san and (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san, along the way at each juncture. In that sense, I think the fact that I have been centrally involved in the creation of Wii is the biggest factor in explaining why my staff and I understand each other so well. Nagata You used to make games by writing programs, and with Wii you have worked to create a piece of hardware. Comparing these two experiences, have you noticed any differences in your approach to the creative process? Iwata Well, of course, the sheer number and types of issues to be considered are vastly different, but my basic mindset didn't change that much from one to the other. Since I don't have the time to write programs myself anymore, of course I am not directly involved in that way, but I feel that I can clearly call myself one of the creators. When I am discussing things with the developers here, I am not just a bystander, and I discuss it as such. Nagata Once, during an interview with Shigesato Itoi for the "Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun", you said that you never wanted to be a bystander. Iwata That's right. Nagata In that sense, the interesting thing - which is perhaps unprecedented - about these interviews is the fact that someone who has been involved in the project is interviewing other people who were also involved. Iwata That's a good point. One of the reasons I am doing it this way is because it's possible to discuss the project more deeply than would be possible if we called in an outside interviewer. Even though I know a lot about the development and was in fact involved in all of the major decisions, there are still a huge number of interesting stories I am hearing here for the first time from people that were more deeply involved in specific matters than myself. For example, stories about what was causing difficulties, what was the key to a certain problem, or what ideas led to a certain feature are extremely interesting to me. Nagata Those stories are really intriguing for me too, even though I am just sitting here listening to them. Iwata Well, you've been sitting pretty close to me, I think you can sense how much I've been enjoying these interviews, can't you? Nagata I really can. You already know about most aspects of the project at a surface level. If the project were a plant, then you would know about everything visible from the soil up to the top of the plant. Then you ask a question about one of the leaves or flowers, and as a result part of the root is revealed. You always seem so pleased when something unexpected is discovered like this. Iwata Well, you're certainly right about that! (laughs) Nagata And it's not just you, either. All of the developers taking part in these interviews are also smiling. Iwata It might seem a little odd to say this about my own employees, but I would say it's the look of satisfaction on their faces after knowing they've done a good job! (laughs) Nagata (laughs) They probably look so satisfied because they are in a place where age and rank don't matter, working with other people that share the same values in order to complete a major project. Iwata That might be it. Nagata You know, normally when I interview game developers, it is after the product has already been completed and many of them are starting to have some regrets. Iwata Because it has already been released, right? Nagata Right. The more earnest a developer is regarding their work, the more likely they are to start feeling regrets, that they should have done something differently. Since I do so many interviews in that context, I hear a lot of the same comments and rarely get to see the satisfied looks I have seen here. With this project, I find it very interesting that I am able to hear you talk about the project just before its final completion, and all of you are so excited that you are just about to cross the finish line, so to speak. Iwata There is definitely that kind of excitement. But I think the reason that everyone has this content look is because the creation of Wii has been so completely different from the development of previous hardware. Nagata I see. Is that, for example, completely different compared to the development of the GameCube? Iwata It goes without saying, but I don't mean to imply at all that there was no value in making the GameCube or the other products that were made for it. But in the end, the GameCube was built as an extension of its predecessors. With Wii on the other hand, I feel as if we have broken with tradition, taking a jump to a different dimension. I think we feel such excitement, as well as a sense of achievement, precisely because we have made this leap. Once Wii is actually released and we have a chance to see the reactions and criticisms of the consumers though, I am sure that everyone, myself included, will feel as if we should have done some things a little differently. Really, there is no such thing as a product that everyone is completely satisfied with. But with Wii, I have a feeling that the sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that has come with developing something so new and unusual will not dissipate even after its release. That's what the mood is like around here. Nagata Maybe this isn't the best way to say it, but when you challenge yourself to do something new and try to make that leap, it's a kind of gamble, isn't it? Iwata It is. When you try to do something that has never been done before, it goes without saying that there is no guarantee of success. It also becomes more difficult to defend your efforts by saying that you know they will result in at least a certain amount of success. For all you know, it might turn out to be a complete failure. Nagata That's true. But the people I have heard in these interviews don't seem to have any sense of gloom or pessimism. Iwata I think that's because they're already beyond that stage at this point. Nagata Ah, I see. Iwata As was mentioned in previous interviews, everyone had their own misgivings at the beginning of development. I am sure that people were concerned about technical issues, the fact that they didn't know what they were working towards, and even their inability to understand the company's strategy. It's frightening to take a different path than everyone else. Nagata Of course. Iwata Even though it is an accepted part of life in modern society to find security in facing the future together, everyone has to do something different from everyone else. And even though it is a part of Nintendo's culture to praise people for doing something different, this time around the nature and scale of the difference was huge. In one sense, we were even going in the opposite direction. Nagata If that's the case, I suspect that the one most strongly affected by the fear of going in the opposite direction would be you, Iwata-san. How did you deal with that fear? Iwata Let's see... For me, I actually found that it would have been more frightening to take the conventional path. Of course, no one knows the most ideal time for change. When we decided to change the direction of the ship, so to speak, we didn't know how long it would take people to understand what we were trying to achieve. Would it be in one year? Or would it be two, three, or five years down the road? We knew that there was no future on the conventional path. That path would eventually lead to a battle of sheer brute force with our competitors, and fewer and fewer consumers would be able to keep up. So the only thing we were sure of at first was the fact that we wanted to point the company in a different direction. But we weren't sure how much change the consumers were willing to accept. In any case, we knew there was no future on the path straight ahead of us, and we realised that there would be no meaning to our efforts if we were just slowly plodding towards the end of that path. So we decided to do something about it. We were convinced that if the number of people playing games increased, there would definitely be a future ahead of us. Nagata I see. So, you changed the direction of the company even before the Nintendo DS became a smash hit. Iwata That's right. At that time, I wasn't so blissfully optimistic to think that the Nintendo DS would be so well received to the point that it would become a social phenomenon even in Europe and America. And the same is true now just before the launch of Wii. As the developers have mentioned several times in these interviews, we are anxious about how the world is going to react to something so unconventional. But at the same time, that's also the reason why we have this burning desire to tell the world about it. Nagata I see. Everyone else who has been a part of these interviews says something similar to what you have just said yourself. I think it's pretty incredible that everyone here shares the same values, that there is such consistency in the mindset of the organisation as a whole. Iwata It is remarkable, isn't it? I think we've made a lot of progress in this area over the last three years. Nagata So, specifically, how did it come to be this way? Iwata Well, I would have to say that it's the result of a lot of small steps forward over time. Just because on one occasion the president tells everyone what he wants to do doesn't mean that everyone accepts it immediately. Nagata I see. Iwata That's why after being told about the vision for Wii time and time again, a few people at a time were able to understand what I was getting at and began to support the idea once parts of it started to become a reality. The idea that certain things must be done in order to accommodate this vision eventually spread to everyone in the company. This is what led to everyone sharing the same vision of the near future. So I suppose it was the result of continually repeating the same mantra. Nagata Well, I think you would have had a hard time achieving these results by just repeating your message. Do you think it was facilitated by the fact that you had some clear results to accompany what you were saying? Iwata Well, there was also an element of luck in producing those results. Taking the right path doesn't necessarily guarantee good results. It's just like trying to second guess what people will find enjoyable. It's even more true when releasing a new product: whether it's going to be a hit or not lies beyond our control to a large extent. Nagata That's true. Take Brain Training, for example. Before it was released, you could have said that it was fun, but no-one could have predicted that it would sell 6 million copies! Iwata "It's a lot of fun!" can quickly become: "Well, it's a lot of fun, but..."! (laughs) In truth, it's not like everyone at Nintendo who saw Brain Training said "This will be a hit!" What I'm trying to say is, we might be able to raise our batting average through our own efforts, but we can never guarantee we'll get a hit 100% of the time. Nagata That's true. To sidetrack a little, with relation to "hitting it", the example that Mr. Shigesato Itoi often uses is that of Tsurube Shofukutei3. When you wonder why such funny things always seem to happen to him, it's not because his "batting average" is high. Rather, it's got to do with the fact that he steps up to the plate more often than other people, so to speak. What I mean is that Tsurube-san is the kind of guy who if someone is handing out free samples or flyers in the street, he'll always stop to take one. When people say hello to him, he'll generally stop to have a chat. Iwata Ah! I see what you mean! (laughs) Nagata So, rather than sitting around thinking about their batting averages, it's the people who just keep going up to the plate who have more chances to get a hit. It's pretty obvious advice, but it isn't that easy to keep putting yourself out there. However, if you have something to aim at, I think the persistence with which you work towards your goal becomes more important. If you have a goal, but it doesn't go well at the first attempt and you never step up to the plate again, well, nothing's ever going to happen. For instance, if (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san had given up on the concept of putting the player inside the game on Mario Artist: Talent Studio4, there would never have been a Mii Channel. Iwata Absolutely. Without Miyamoto-san's persistence, it would never have happened. To be honest, I don't think Talent Studio was a perfect piece of software when we released it. This is something that I think will come up in the interview about Wii Sports, but we had some software called "Manebito Camera" (there were plans to put this out as Stage Debut, but it was never released). Here he also doggedly tried to pursue the same goal. In spite of the fact that this was never fully realised either, Miyamoto-san still wanted to implement the kokeshi5 idea when we worked on Wii. If we hadn't had his persistence - dare I say, obsession - then, when I laid eyes on the prototype software for the DS which became the model for the Mii Channel, I never would have thought: "Wait a minute! This is what Miyamoto is after!" I would never have shown it to him. Nagata Without that, perhaps the Wii would have turned out very differently. Iwata Wii would most certainly not be the same console we have today. It wouldn't have the Mii Channel, and Wii Sports would be very different as well. Nagata Then all those fans around the world wouldn't have been grinning from ear to ear when you and the others were playing tennis at the E3 presentation. Iwata Right. This is something that I've said throughout these interviews, but in developing Wii, we didn't work to a fixed plan. Rather, we had to improvise a lot, and the finished product is the result of a lot of groping in the dark for what was a workable solution at a given time. I think the reason we arrived at where we are now is that, even when there was uncertainty, we never wavered from pursuing the clear goal we had in mind. Nagata May I ask a rather blunt question? Imagine you were, plainly speaking, far and away the market leader, as you were at the peak of the Super Nintendo's success, and let's say that you felt "there is no future down this path." Would you still have been able to steer the ship as you are doing now? Iwata Well, let me see...To be sure, the way the ship is steered was not the same when we had the biggest market share as it is now. But although the way you steer may change, as market leader, you have to go forward with a sense of urgency. Time passes very quickly, and if you are complacent, you'll be too late. If you feel that the course you are on has no future, then you have to change your direction even if you're the market leader and everyone is telling you "You're at the top, so there's no need to change. Just keep going along as you are." But the way you would go about it does change depending on whether you're market leader or not. Nagata I understand. I apologise for asking such a difficult hypothetical question! Iwata Not at all! (laughs) I've also got a question for you. As a game fan who has observed Nintendo over the years, how do you feel about the recent developments? Nagata Well, I'm very excited. What more can I say? But a statement like that isn't much good to anyone! (laughs) Hmmm...I think there are game fans out there who are a little concerned. Iwata Do you think they are worried that in the future we won't give priority to making the kind of games they have come to expect? Nagata Yes, those kinds of concerns. As a gamer, there is a side of me that likes to stay up at night, playing alone, silently, head-to-head with the game. Of course, Zelda and Mario will come out, and listening to your speeches, I understand that you don't intend to neglect your core fans. I understand all that, but even so... Iwata Although we're putting a huge amount of energy into Mario and Zelda, since those games don't feature that much at the Wii Preview events, they don't seem to be the main pillar of Nintendo's strategy. Is that what people are saying? Nagata Yes, it seems so. How can I put this? I understand it on an intellectual level. When I hear you say that there is no future in simply continuing in the same way, I think you're right. But even though I can see that, the more a gamer understands that reasoning, the more they feel excluded by it. It's not that they don't understand what you are doing, it's simply how they feel on an emotional level. (laughs) Iwata It does seem that there is a level of misunderstanding among some people. I am concerned about this. It's true that Nintendo is reaching out to non-gamers, but this does not mean that we are ignoring game fans. I believe that if we don't make moves to get people who don't play games to understand them, then the position of video games in society will never improve. Society's image of games will remain largely negative, including that stuff about playing games all the time badly damaging you or rotting your brain or whatever. If that happens, then even people who enjoy games will start to feel a strange guilt when they play them. If people who haven't played games up til now start playing them, and appreciate how enjoyable they are, it is highly likely this situation will change. Society will be more accommodating towards people who play games, and it will become even easier to produce "traditional" games. In reality, while Nintendo is looking to reach out to people who don't play games, it's not as if we've become less committed to Zelda. On the contrary, we've invested four years and a huge amount of effort into developing the new Zelda. There's no question that we are passionate about it. For the people who are willing to wait for them we will absolutely continue to produce games like that. But I think if we don't also develop things for non-gamers, the future for game fans will become bleak. Nagata I see what you're saying. Iwata Now going back to that "but..." you mentioned... (laughs) Of course, I know exactly the sort of emotion you're describing... Nagata (laughs) Iwata But having said that, we don't develop games with two categories in our mind: "This one's just for people who don't play games..." or "This one's just for gamers..." Take Wii Sports, for instance. I think gamers will enjoy the Target Practice mode more than anyone else. Even with something like Brain Training, which generally isn't seen as being a game, lots of users recognised that there was the same excitement in trying to beat the clock, as there is in a racing game, to put it in very basic terms. Nagata Ah, yes. It's the same feeling of enjoyment. On the calculation problems, searching for numbers on the edge of your field of vision...that thrill when your hand movements have become almost robotic...it's very much like that of a puzzle game. Iwata It's exactly the same. I think the place in your brain where this feeling comes from is the same in both cases. That's why, even in Touch! Generations software, the core elements have all the original fun of a game. Nagata You've simply expanded the scope of what a game can be. That is to say, ever since the DS came out, everything you have done has ultimately boiled down to broadening the dynamic range of video games. You are not trying to replace, or reject, the games that have come before. Iwata You're exactly right. Nagata All of the developers who have been featured here have been unanimous in saying that they believe they are expanding this scope. But if you stop to think about it for a moment, this broadening of the dynamic range by Nintendo has come with no reduction in the number of products you release, or drop in quality. Normally, that is not something that can be done easily, or to put it simply, it is going to present problems relating to manpower. Listening to everyone speak, that is not the case...but perhaps there are screams emanating from the Nintendo R&D section as we speak? (laughs) Iwata Well, everyone is busy...! (laughs) People have a certain amount of potential within them. Ensuring that this potential is used as productively as possible greatly helps an organisation. To put it another way, there is a vast amount of energy which disappears inside organisations, or is expended going in directions which don't end up leading anywhere. If all that energy is properly directed, it can add up to a huge amount of power that can be used to produce visible results. That's why I think that over the last three years, as the level of awareness shared by the staff has increased, each individual's understanding has also developed. I believe this has meant that the total amount of energy in the company has increased more than it would have by simply increasing the number of staff. That is to say, the overall potential within the company has become more fully realised. Nagata I see. Iwata The fact that the number of developers who can sit here and give clear and precise opinions has increased may well be proof of that. In fact, one of the motivations behind doing these interviews was my desire to push these developers more to the forefront. Nagata Yes, I got that impression. Iwata To be more precise, I thought it would be good if there was an opportunity for people besides Miyamoto-san to speak about their work in detail. Needless to say, Miyamoto-san remains Nintendo's linchpin, and it is essential that he continues to work at the very heart of our production. But it is precisely because there are others beside Miyamoto-san that we are able to put out such a large number of products. While it's impossible to get everyone involved to speak about their work, by making the public even just a little more aware of the existence of such people, I hope to help Nintendo look like an interesting, diverse group of people. Nagata But one thing I found really interesting sitting in on these interviews, was that even when Miyamoto-san wasn't present, his name would always come up. Iwata It does always come up, doesn't it? (laughs) Nagata It's an interesting phenomenon. Also, whenever the conversation turns to Miyamoto-san, you always seem somewhat happy. Iwata Well that's because, as you can imagine, I have learned a vast amount about making video games from Miyamoto-san. It might be better to say that I didn't learn from him, but rather stole from him! From the early days of working at HAL Laboratory6, I was always watching and learning from him. From outside of Nintendo I used to observe him, my eyes like saucers, wondering: "Why does Miyamoto-san always succeed?" Now, by a curious twist of fate, we've ended up in these relative positions to each other...it really is funny how things turn out! (laughs) Nagata I get the impression that your experiences outside Nintendo are really useful to you now, making decisions as Nintendo's president. Iwata I would say that, of the things I have experienced up to now, there is very little that has not proved to be useful. Nagata Well, I don't know all of the details, but I think that in your old job there were a lot of cases where you turned dead-end situations around and found a way forward. The rebuilding of HAL Laboratory is one example, Mother 27 is another... Iwata Yes, there are a lot of experiences that still carry a lot of relevance for me. The decision to temporarily call off Mother 38 is one of them, as is the process which gave birth to Kirby and made him into a star. Another is when Smash Brothers was released, after a lot of twists and turns, and was well-received worldwide. There are a lot of examples. Nagata Do you have any experiences of being unsuccessful, as opposed to something simply not being quite as successful as you had envisioned? Iwata Well I think you could say that Mother 3 fits into that category. (laughs) Nagata But Mother 3 was finished, eventually. Iwata Well, in the end, I suppose so. Nagata Ultimately, I think you could say it was a success. Iwata Well, as long as you have chances... Hmmm...well, it's about always looking for the chance to realise your vision, but there's more to it... Nagata You have to stop being a bystander, and just step up to the plate! Iwata (laughs) Well, we've spoken at length, so to recap, Wii was a product where we were not able to see how things would end up from the start. The only thing that was clear was the fact that there were no answers along the path we were on, so we decided to change our direction. Of course, time is limited, and we have to keep releasing products, just as we always have. Looking back on what we have done - releasing a new portable console while preparing for the release of this new hardware - during that process, there are plenty of small things about which I could say: "If only we'd done it like that!" But, strangely enough, there is nothing about the completed Wii about which I could say: "We should have done that differently!" I can say with absolute conviction that, even if we turned the clock back, we would end up making the same console. I think that's why everyone has looked so content during these interviews. Nagata Yes, I think you're right. Iwata And that just about wraps it up. Ummm...in the end, it certainly didn't turn out to be another "Iwata Asks" feature, even though I had planned for this to be a special edition where I asked you all the questions. Nagata No! This is a special interview. I'm sure the readers will be more satisfied with the "Asking Iwata" style of this feature. Iwata (laughs) (Next time, the interview on Wii Sports begins) 1 Shigesato Itoi is a famous Japanese copywriter and game designer. He is most well known for his work with Nintendo's Mother series (known as EarthBound in the United States). Itoi voiced the father in the Japanese version of the My Neighbor Totoro anime film. 2 Hobo Nichi is another term for the Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun. 3 Tsurube Shofukutei is a famous Japanese comedian, most well-known as a teller of comic stories in the rakugo tradition. 4 Mario Artist: Talent Studio is an animation production studio which lets the user insert captured images such as human faces onto 3D models and then animate the models. It was released exclusively in Japan in February of 2000 as part of a bundle with the Nintendo 64 Capture Cartridge. 5 Kokeshi are traditional wooden Japanese dolls. They are cylindrically-shaped, with no arms or legs. 6 HAL Laboratory, Inc. is a Japanese video game developer. The company's most famous character is probably Kirby, but it is also well known for the Super Smash Bros. series. Mr Iwata began working as a games programmer there. 7 MOTHER 2, developed by HAL Laboratory, was a game released for the Super Nintendo as Earthbound in the US in 1995. 8 MOTHER 3 was originally scheduled for release in 1996 on the Nintendo 64. However, this was cancelled in 2000, before being released this year in Japan for the Game Boy Advance. Edit. After reading it, there's nothing actually that interesting in there. sorry for wasting your time.
fatnickc Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 The other discussions were much better than this.
triforce_keeper Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 Huge interview, I will bold some interesting points if you can't be arsed to read it all. Edit. After reading it, there's nothing actually that interesting in there. sorry for wasting your time. LMAO!!!! Classic.
Rapture1984 Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 LMAO!!!! Classic. Glad I scrolled down and saw this before I started reading. Lol! Still, might give me something to do at work tomorrow :p
Raven Posted October 16, 2006 Posted October 16, 2006 Edit. After reading it, there's nothing actually that interesting in there. sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like a quote of the week...
Dante Posted October 18, 2006 Posted October 18, 2006 Part 2 - DID ANYONE SAY IT SHOULD LOOK REALISTIC? Iwata Wii Sports and the Mii Channel fit together very well, don't they? So much so that one would never guess that they had been developed separately. Eguchi That's true. By being able to use a Mii that has been made in the Mii Channel as an in-game character, I feel these five sports games have come together very nicely. It even feels as if we designed Wii Sports this way so that everyone could appreciate how great the Mii concept is. Iwata Before the Mii Channel and Mii characters were incorporated into the internal system functions, there were a lot of lengthy discussions about what to do about the characters in Wii Sports, weren't there? Eguchi Yes. First of all, one of the most important concepts for Wii is making something that everyone in the family can relate to. We thought the best way to do that was by having something in the game that represented the player or other people in their family. Of course, the best way to do that is by having characters that resemble those people. Iwata At the beginning, you even seriously considered having users take pictures with their digital cameras, putting that data on Wii via an SD card, and then pasting the pictures on the faces of their in-game characters. Eguchi But we realised that hardly anyone would actually do this unless they were really familiar with what to do. So no matter how much you wanted to get someone in your family involved in a game, there would be no way to do it unless someone else set it up for them first. We then realised that even the act of making a character to represent yourself would have to be something that people would want to try out for themselves. It was around that time that we heard about the kokeshi 1 idea from (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san. Iwata You mean the idea of putting a kokeshi version of yourself in a number of games, right? Eguchi Right. Miyamoto-san had been talking about it for ages. And separately from that, there was a very simple prototype in which kokeshi-like characters were already implemented. Ota-san and many others who played this prototype said that they really felt "That's me!" when they played it. Ota At the prototype stage, the characters that were used were very plain, simple models. This was mostly because our group didn't have a designer! Iwata Ah, I see. Because there were only programmers in your group, you didn't have a designer! (laughs) Ota That's right. When we tried playing with these very simple characters, we really felt that we were the ones in the game. We tried using Mario as a character once, but then it didn't feel like we were the ones playing anymore. It felt like Mario was actually the one playing and we were just controlling him. But it wasn't the same when we used these simple models. Rather than feeling that the kokeshi model was playing, it actually felt like we were the ones in the game. But with such simple models, it felt like something was missing. Around this time, the caricature software for the DS was created. Iwata We also talked about this in our discussion of the Mii Channel, but it was when I came across this software and showed it to Miyamoto-san that things really took off, wasn't it? Eguchi Yes, although at first we were not talking about making the Mii Channel a core system function. We were only thinking about using this software to make the characters in Wii Sports. But the more we talked about it, the more we realised that rather than incorporating this software in a specific game, it would be better if there were a place on Wii where these characters could be made. Before we knew it, we were planning the Mii Channel. Iwata We also had some good fortune here, didn't we? In a discussion of the course that led to the Mii concept, we can't forget about Mario Artist: Talent Studio, which Yamashita-san worked on a long time ago. Could you explain to us what kind of game that was? Yamashita Sure. Talent Studio was a piece of software that was developed for the 64DD, a hardware attachment for the Nintendo 64. There was a series of software for the 64DD called Mario Artist, in which the player could make their own creations. To be a little more specific, there were three games in the series. Paint Studio allowed the player to draw pictures, Polygon Studio let the player create 3D models, and Talent Studio allowed the player to create their own characters. I worked on the Talent Studio project, and... well... let me just say that it was very tough! All (laughter) Yamashita At that time, there was already a way to incorporate actual photos. Of course, SD cards weren't around yet, so the process wasn't that simple. The player had to use the Game Boy Camera to take pictures and then connect an accessory called the Capture Cassette to the 64DD. Just coming up with a way to let players do this was a lot of work, but what caused us the most trouble was finding ways to make use of the characters that the user had gone to all the trouble of making. We tried various ideas such as using the characters in mini-games, and... what do you call the type of game where the character has to move around on top of a ball? Iwata I believe it's called "tamanori"2. Yamashita Right, tamanori! We tried using the character in a tamanori mini-game and so on. We ended up making a movie mode where the player's characters could be used. In the end we weren't able to successfully use the character in an actual game. Looking back at it now, I was still new at the company, and honestly speaking it was a tough time for me. Of course, I had fun with parts of it too, but... Well, to cut a long story short, when I first heard about doing personalised characters for Wii, I thought "Oh no!" All (laughter) Yamashita At first I felt anxious about it, but as I heard more about how it would fit in with the Wii concept, I came to realise that it was a good idea. With Talent Studio ten years ago, we didn't have the concept of bringing the family together. Iwata Well, ten years ago, you started development with the simple idea that it would be fun to create a person that would appear in a game. Yamashita Right. In those days, we were just happy that we could make and manipulate a 3D image. I feel that over the last ten years the idea has been pared down to its essentials, leaving Wii to inherit only the most important parts. Iwata Were you able to apply any of the lessons you learned from Talent Studio to development this time around? Yamashita I think so. One thing that didn't satisfy me about Talent Studio was the fact that we overdid the number of effects. I mean, when you decide to make caricatures, you want to try out a ton of different ideas. You want to try making realistic depictions, as well as trying to make them in the style of a manga 3 or American comic book. Ten years ago, the design of the end result was disorderly and fractured, so with Wii Sports I kept telling everyone that all of the effects had to be neatly arranged. Around that time, someone showed me the DS caricature software and I thought "This is it! It's already done!" All (laughter) Iwata It was already possible to use the characters you created in the DS, so it was very convincing, wasn't it? Yamashita Definitely. Iwata At that time the DS software was already up and running, and everyone who saw it said: "That's what we've been looking for!" If it wasn't for that, it wouldn't have all come together so quickly. Yamashita Well, Miyamoto-san had been talking about the kokeshi idea for a long time, but we never really reached any conclusions about it. We weren't sure how or to what extent we should allow users to make their own characters. Speaking of which, after Talent Studio came Manebito! (laughs) Iwata Ahh, Manebito was the same kind of software, wasn't it? Shimamura-san, could you explain a bit about it to us? Shimamura Ahhh, I didn't think the topic of Manebito would come up - after all, it was a game that never saw the light of day! Well, Manebito was a game for the GameCube that came about in the same way as Talent Studio. It was even shown at exhibitions with the name Stage Debut. It was also a game that allowed you to design characters to look like yourself, but it put more emphasis on the ability to customise the characters. There were hundreds of outfits and accessories to choose from, allowing the user to create characters with an incredible amount of detail. In the end it was never released... The big problem was... well... what to do with the characters once you'd made them! All (laughter) Shimamura Once you had created a character that looked like yourself, well, that was it. When we asked people what they thought about it, they always asked "What are we supposed to do next?" Iwata You ran into the same wall that they did with Talent Studio, didn't you? (laughs) Shimamura We did. So when I heard that caricatures were going to be used in Wii Sports, I also thought "Oh no!" All (laughter) Iwata In other words, even though there are a lot of possibilities for playing with personalised characters, you couldn't narrow it down enough. So time just kept on going by while you were looking for an answer. Shimamura That's right. We knew that even if there were a ton of mini-games, people would soon get tired of playing them, and in the end the characters they made wouldn't be used anymore. This problem was solved with Wii Sports by giving the characters a proper place, so to speak. In this game, you can have the experience of being a professional tennis player via your on-screen alter ego. I never realised how much fun it could be to feel like you're really in a proper game, as opposed to just in a mini-game that doesn't have any depth. Simply put, the level of emotional involvement in the game is completely different. Iwata Even with the plain kokeshi characters, you really feel like it's you in there. I know I've already asked you all this before, but the kokeshi are very far from being realistic. Didn't you feel some uncertainty, that they were just too simple? Eguchi Did anyone ever say they should look realistic? No one did, right? Ota I actually wanted to go ahead with just the plain kokeshi. During development when we tried it out with Mario, I was pretty nervous. I wouldn't have known what to do if the kokeshi were replaced! (laughs) Yamashita The kokeshi might be simple, but your mind helps make it more real. In Wii Sports Baseball, even though the arms and legs aren't shown when the fielders move, it feels realistic when you see them in motion. Shimamura Also, I think to some extent it's precisely because the characters are simple that they fit so well with the concept of creating personalised characters. Since the models are super deformed4, you just move the eyes and eyebrows apart a little bit and you've got Yamashita-san! (laughs) Eguchi I think it's great fun to see characters that resemble people you know playing tennis or baseball like pros. Shimamura People usually end up making people they know, don't they? In the end, I think that's the most fun. Yamashita Speaking of which, the other day we got a family to come in to play Wii Sports so we could hear their impressions. We made Mii characters of everyone in the family in advance, and they were all really happy with it. When the grandmother made a nice catch in baseball, everyone was so excited! They were all saying "Way to go, Grandma!" Beforehand, I had wondered if something like that would happen. Needless to say, their reactions exceeded my expectations. (To be continued...) 1Kokeshi are traditional wooden Japanese dolls. They are cylindrically-shaped, with no arms or legs. 2Tamanori means to balance oneself on top of a ball in Japanese. 3Manga is the Japanese word for Japanese-style comic books. 4Super deformed is a technical term for the Japanese style of caricature, common in manga, where characters have unrealistic or exaggerated features, such as small bodies and oversized heads for example.
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