Metroid (NES)

[Grazza]

Thanks to the 3DS and the save state feature, I have just completed the original Metroid! Certainly a gruelling, arduous experience! Two things surprised me:

 

Firstly, although it is a challenge to play, there aren't any particularly difficult moments, as such. The bosses in particular were surprising. I was expecting them to be big, difficult and intimidating, but the opposite was true. Kraid is not easy, but is the standard "Learn the technique, easy when you know how" kind of boss. He's also tiny! Ridley is also tiny, and a pushover! Mother Brain is about what you'd expect (thankfully the force fields stay destroyed, even if you fail). Basically, you will find far more frustrating bosses in Metroid Prime, Metroid Prime 2: Echoes and many/all of the others.

 

But that's not to say the game is easy: not at all. If you fail at any part, you have to spend ages restoring your health and missiles. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of my play time was spent doing this.

 

The second thing that surprised me was how many power-ups were missing. I suppose I assumed Metroid had been fully-formed since the beginning, but this is not the case. Things not in this game include Super Missiles, Plasma Beam, Power Bombs, Bomb Jump, Wall Jump, Speed Boost, Space Jump, any suit better than Varia, Save Rooms (or Save Points), diagonal aiming, downward aiming... the list goes on. No wonder Super Metroid made such an impression, as it is the first game to have most of these.

 

So, overall, I'm glad I played it. I always loved Zero Mission, but playing the NES original has made me realise just how good that remake really is. It provides everything important from the original, yet to modern, luxurious standard!

 

Have you completed Metroid? What are your thoughts on it?

[EEVILMURRAY]

I couldn't get into it at all. I tried playing it but it bored me. Rather like the original Zelda.

[Grazza]

I couldn't get into it at all. I tried playing it but it bored me. Rather like the original Zelda.

 

Yeah, I just completed the original Zelda as well. I'm trying to make my way through the NES games I got with the Ambassador scheme, although to be honest, I don't know quite why. To me, NES games in general are massively outdated, especially when you compare them to how good the SNES sequels are (Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Link to the Past). The jump from NES to SNES is probably one of the biggest ever in terms of ease-of-play and accessibility.

 

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be controversial), I don't think any NES games are good enough to charge money for nowadays, but they were a nice bonus. As I've said in other threads, the fact this is on the 3DS Virtual Console would be a terrible reason not to make a 3D Classics version or to put Zero Mission on there (if, in fact, it does have anything to do with it).

[Captain Falcon]

Although I never actually played it on the NES, the original Metroid probably ranks right up there as my most played NES game given how much time I've spent with it on Metroid Prime, Zero Mission, the Wii VC and now the 3DS VC.

 

Since I refused the FAQ route, I never got very far on the MP version but having played the crap out of Zero Mission, I know the maps well enough to get quite far before I eventually caved and used a bit of help to get me back on path. Now, I know exactly where everything is (well, major power ups anyway - not every missile tank, though most) and the fastest way to both Kraid and Ridley.

 

I think the grind for health is really annoying upon death unless you're in Tourian where it's super easy thanks to the Metroids. With Mother Brain, I go into the chamber, destroy a couple of barriers and then retreat to stock back up before heading back. There are so many bulllets in there that are ridiculously hard to dodge and the slow down is horrendous that it really spoils it. I don't mind hard, I just prefer it fair and I don't feel that part is.

 

As for the NES game debate, I think they are worth charging for, though not necessarily worth the asking price Nintendo sets, and I do wonder how that plays into the whole 3D classic selection process (as I touched upon in another thread).

 

Speaking of NES to SNES improvements, compare Zelda 1 to A Link to the Past. Big improvements no doubt. Now compare A Link to the Past with Link's Awakening on the GB. Aside from the smaller world, and obvious graphically and button limitations, they played the same with the same ideas and same design philosophies. But the GB is no more powerful than the NES so that shouldn't be possible, right? If anything, the jump to the SNES took the shackles of gameplay ideas that they thought not previsouly possible. Once they implemented those, they could see it was more their way of thiking holding them back rather than the hardware itself. Let's face it, a lot of early NES games were pioneering the genres at the time and it's difficult to see what is and is not possible and what will and won't work when you have no previously set boundaries to base it off.

[Grazza]

Since I refused the FAQ route, I never got very far on the MP version but having played the crap out of Zero Mission, I know the maps well enough to get quite far before I eventually caved and used a bit of help to get me back on path. Now, I know exactly where everything is (well, major power ups anyway - not every missile tank, though most) and the fastest way to both Kraid and Ridley.

 

Another thing about this game is that you can only use a maximum of six Energy Tanks, even if you collect all of them. Do you know how to get the one in Kraid's room? It just seemed impossible to me (I didn't have the Screw Attack at the time, if that helps?)

 

Speaking of NES to SNES improvements, compare Zelda 1 to A Link to the Past. Big improvements no doubt. Now compare A Link to the Past with Link's Awakening on the GB. Aside from the smaller world, and obvious graphically and button limitations, they played the same with the same ideas and same design philosophies. But the GB is no more powerful than the NES so that shouldn't be possible, right? If anything, the jump to the SNES took the shackles of gameplay ideas that they thought not previsouly possible. Once they implemented those, they could see it was more their way of thiking holding them back rather than the hardware itself. Let's face it, a lot of early NES games were pioneering the genres at the time and it's difficult to see what is and is not possible and what will and won't work when you have no previously set boundaries to base it off.

 

Very true. I also didn't have anything like as much trouble with Metroid II as I did Metroid. Metroid II would benefit from a map, and it would help if the Save Points restored your health, but it still feels much more modern than the NES game.

 

Personally, I think the next step in ease-of-play is autosave, but perhaps I should leave that for another thread. I was surprised New Super Mario Bros 2 didn't have it, actually.

[Captain Falcon]

Another thing about this game is that you can only use a maximum of six Energy Tanks, even if you collect all of them. Do you know how to get the one in Kraid's room? It just seemed impossible to me (I didn't have the Screw Attack at the time, if that helps?)

 

Yeah, I knew about the energy tanks thing and it is a bit strange. Maybe it's to do with the way they allocated the memory for health but there are numerous ways they could have done it so I'm not sure what the reason could be. Maybe somebody just forgot to code for it. Since it's only slot wide, you have to be in morph ball mode. So after falling in the lava and shooting the wall, jump back to the top and roll off the one of the ledges, I think either side will actually work, and hopefully you will crash into it. It's a real pain and I normally end up using most of my health trying to grab the thing.

 

Very true. I also didn't have anything like as much trouble with Metroid II as I did Metroid. Metroid II would benefit from a map, and it would help if the Save Points restored your health, but it still feels much more modern than the NES game.

 

Personally, I think the next step in ease-of-play is autosave, but perhaps I should leave that for another thread. I was surprised New Super Mario Bros 2 didn't have it, actually.

 

I've never played Metroid 2 - after Zero Mission, I've been holding out for a remake and I know there is that guy/team online using the ZM sprites and gameplay as a basis for a remake but I'd prefer the real mccoy. Doesn't Metroid 2 feature a more linear pressentation of the worlds though? I mean, until you shoot the Metroids and reduce the lava, aren't you fairly restricted in where you can go?

 

 

 

Autosave is good as long as it doesn't shaft you over and save at a bad spot. It's like when you're falling to your death on a PC game and hit the quick save key instead of quick load - the game instantly restarts when you do die and your stuck in a loop of eternal death. It's less an issue these days as they are designed better but the principle of saving in an awkward position still remains. With games that feature individual levels, it's easier to identify appropriate save points but it's not so easy with something like Metroid or games that don't have an auto-regenerating health system. Just imagine if the old resident evil games used an autosave? I've always found the save system in that contentious anyway but at least it's technically my fault if I save before a boss with no ammo and herbs. To not feature in NSMB2 does surprise me a little. Can you manually save when you want? I always thought the save system was stupid in the first NSMB game.

 

[Ike]

To me, NES games in general are massively outdated, especially when you compare them to how good the SNES sequels are (Super Mario World, Super Metroid, Link to the Past).

 

Actually I disagree with this, I think they've aged amazingly well and still hold up today, they are just as good as the SNES games. In some cases I prefer the NES games over the SNES games (Super Mario). They maybe missing some features (maps, areas that don't all look the same :P) but the core gameplay is still up there.

[Grazza]

Doesn't Metroid 2 feature a more linear pressentation of the worlds though? I mean, until you shoot the Metroids and reduce the lava, aren't you fairly restricted in where you can go?

 

Oh yeah, it's far less complex than the other games, but if they ever made a remake, a map would be very welcome. As you say, the actual worlds are clearly defined, but they are complicated enough that a map would help.

 

Autosave is good as long as it doesn't shaft you over and save at a bad spot. It's like when you're falling to your death on a PC game and hit the quick save key instead of quick load - the game instantly restarts when you do die and your stuck in a loop of eternal death. It's less an issue these days as they are designed better but the principle of saving in an awkward position still remains. With games that feature individual levels, it's easier to identify appropriate save points but it's not so easy with something like Metroid or games that don't have an auto-regenerating health system. Just imagine if the old resident evil games used an autosave? I've always found the save system in that contentious anyway but at least it's technically my fault if I save before a boss with no ammo and herbs. To not feature in NSMB2 does surprise me a little. Can you manually save when you want? I always thought the save system was stupid in the first NSMB game.

 

[spoiler=]Absolutely. I just meant autosave would be useful for when you got a significant item (such as Bow, Boomerang or Heart Piece in Zelda; Ice Beam, Missile Expansion or Energy Tank in Metroid) or cleared a difficult puzzle, rather than positional autosave which, as you say, could be problematic if not done carefully.

 

It's just that I've seen so many people not understand the save system in Zelda. Maybe it would help if the dungeons were divided into areas that had an autosave "event", although not mid-puzzle, obviously. Just certain bits where it wouldn't cause a problem.

 

As for New Super Mario Bros 2, you can only save after Fortresses and Castles, until after you've completed the game. Personally, I think having to save is a reasonable-sized barrier with less experienced gamers, so autosave after every level would have been very useful.

 

 

Thanks for the advice about the Energy Tank.

[Hero-of-Time]

To be honest (and I'm not saying this to be controversial), I don't think any NES games are good enough to charge money for nowadays, but they were a nice bonus.

 

I would pay a stupid amount to have Duck Tales or Little Nemo on the VC!

[mcj metroid]

Speaking of NES to SNES improvements, compare Zelda 1 to A Link to the Past. Big improvements no doubt. Now compare A Link to the Past with Link's Awakening on the GB. Aside from the smaller world, and obvious graphically and button limitations, they played the same with the same ideas and same design philosophies. But the GB is no more powerful than the NES so that shouldn't be possible, right? If anything, the jump to the SNES took the shackles of gameplay ideas that they thought not previsouly possible. Once they implemented those, they could see it was more their way of thiking holding them back rather than the hardware itself. Let's face it, a lot of early NES games were pioneering the genres at the time and it's difficult to see what is and is not possible and what will and won't work when you have no previously set boundaries to base it off.

 

I've often thought this too.

 

I'd give Donkey kong land as a good example of this.

If you look at the restrictions here it's incredible these games came out the way they did especially considering how even the country games were top of their graphics game for the SNES. The gameplay is here much like the Zelda examples above.

 

Even pokemon red/blue.

Pokemon is one of the deepest RPGs ever created and shows that with great restrictions you can do a game as good as the consoles were getting.

 

I almost wish these days developers would push handheld games as far as their console counterparts but this doesn't happen. Super mario land 3ds is a FAR cry away from Super mario galaxy and Zelda phantom hourglass is a far cry away from OOT.

[EEVILMURRAY]

I would pay a stupid amount to have Duck Tales or Little Nemo on the VC!

Fuck yes on both counts. I loved Duck Tales and Little Nemo when I was young. And Solstice too. Although that would be better if you could use an analogue stick/circle pad.

[Grazza]

Are we sure the Game Boy was weaker than the NES? Could it not have had some sort of advantage?

 

Another thing is that Game Boy games were a lot more generous with having battery back-up. Take Metroid. There are no Save Points at all in the NES game, but there are in the GB sequel. Then again, Legend of Zelda also has battery back-up, so this theory doesn't explain the Zelda series.

 

I almost wish these days developers would push handheld games as far as their console counterparts but this doesn't happen. Super mario land 3ds is a FAR cry away from Super mario galaxy and Zelda phantom hourglass is a far cry away from OOT.

 

That's true, but I always wondered if Phantom Hourglass was the result of questionable thinking. The DS wasn't powerful enough to deliver an N64 experience, yet at the same time, they no longer had faith in the Link to the Past/Minish Cap model. Now we have a handheld that at least should be able to deliver an OOT/MM-quality Zelda (I don't believe the 3DS could do Wind Waker justice), so I'm hoping we get something like that.

 

As for Mario, we could have had a Mario 64-style Zelda, sure. Again, I hate to say it but I think Super Mario 3D Land was another example of confused thinking. 2D Mario? Great. 3D Mario? Great. 3D Mario largely confined to side-scrolling levels? Not so great.

[Captain Falcon]

[spoiler=]Absolutely. I just meant autosave would be useful for when you got a significant item (such as Bow, Boomerang or Heart Piece in Zelda; Ice Beam, Missile Expansion or Energy Tank in Metroid) or cleared a difficult puzzle, rather than positional autosave which, as you say, could be problematic if not done carefully.

 

It's just that I've seen so many people not understand the save system in Zelda. Maybe it would help if the dungeons were divided into areas that had an autosave "event", although not mid-puzzle, obviously. Just certain bits where it wouldn't cause a problem.

 

As for New Super Mario Bros 2, you can only save after Fortresses and Castles, until after you've completed the game. Personally, I think having to save is a reasonable-sized barrier with less experienced gamers, so autosave after every level would have been very useful.

 

 

Thanks for the advice about the Energy Tank.

 

 

saving upon the collection of an item makes more sense, especially when it's one that refills life. Killing a boss always releases some health in Metroid, so then making a save seems ok as at least the player isn't potentially at super low health, but if the player wasn't required to fight a boss to get the item, then they do still run that risk of being respawned with minimal health - which is, for me, one of the better traits of auto heal in games. Busting your gut to get a missile tank you weren't supposed to get and then saving could be potentially game breaking too. I was playing Fusion the other day and thought I'd go for the missile tank in Noc before I had the Varia suit - I managed to just about get past the forzen Xs on my way there but couldn't make it back out again. Had it saved, I'd have to have reset my entire file.

 

So NSMB2 saves the same as the first game then. At least that part of the development phase must be considered lazy as I don't think there was a reviewer alive who didn't take issue with the save system - sleep mode be damned.

 

For pre-established gamers, I think we know how to handle the save managment system of our games but for a newcomer, it's not something they think of. I do like the system used by Bethesda's in Skyrim though - you can make saves whenever you want, and the game emplys an autosave with multiple slots that occurs whenever a change of location takes place or a preset amount of game time has passed. It covers both bases rather nicely.

 

 

 

 

 

As for the energy tank, just thinking a bit more about it, if you fall from the left hand side, so Kraid's platform, I'm not sure you can get far enough right in time to get the Energy tank just by rolling off - so do a bomb jump, as crappy as it may be, to get a little extra height first of all and buy yourself some time. It also propels you right faster than just the d-pad alone.

 

EDIT: I've just started a new game and ran through to that point. If you stand on the right ledge by the door, roll off left and then hold right and you will get it no probems.

 

I've often thought this too.

 

I'd give Donkey kong land as a good example of this.

If you look at the restrictions here it's incredible these games came out the way they did especially considering how even the country games were top of their graphics game for the SNES. The gameplay is here much like the Zelda examples above.

 

I know the DKC games looked good, but they really weren't pushing the system as much as people think they were. After all, all the complex graphical processing was done on the SG workstations before being transformed into simple sprite sheets that operated just like any other game on the system using sprites. Yeah, they used parallax scrolling with several layers, including the foreground but it wasn't like it was bringing the system to it's knees. But back to design and yes, you're spot on. It mimics its 16-bit cousins remarkably and demonstrates a far greater level of complexity concerning level design. DKC2 did it even better. It paired down the detail a touch but that had several benefits such as improving the clarity of the image, reducing the slowdown, and also allow for fast loading of the levels. IN DKL2 and 33, you can fall much farther before the game kills you. In DKL1, you can fall knowing full well there is a platform bellow you and still die because the system can't load it in time.

 

Are we sure the Game Boy was weaker than the NES? Could it not have had some sort of advantage?

 

Another thing is that Game Boy games were a lot more generous with having battery back-up. Take Metroid. There are no Save Points at all in the NES game, but there are in the GB sequel. Then again, Legend of Zelda also has battery back-up, so this theory doesn't explain the Zelda series.

 

 

 

That's true, but I always wondered if Phantom Hourglass was the result of questionable thinking. The DS wasn't powerful enough to deliver an N64 experience, yet at the same time, they no longer had faith in the Link to the Past/Minish Cap model. Now we have a handheld that at least should be able to deliver an OOT/MM-quality Zelda (I don't believe the 3DS could do Wind Waker justice), so I'm hoping we get something like that.

 

As for Mario, we could have had a Mario 64-style Zelda, sure. Again, I hate to say it but I think Super Mario 3D Land was another example of confused thinking. 2D Mario? Great. 3D Mario? Great. 3D Mario largely confined to side-scrolling levels? Not so great.

 

I was very deliberate when I say the GB was no more powerful than the NES because in some ways, it does have benefits and you could code certain things to perform much better on the hardware - the chip used in the GB has instructions not found on the NES version for improved performance. But the GB CPU had to handle virtually everything whereas the NES had multiple chips - which is why it's clocked so much higher (relatively). Ultimately though, the NES has a bit more graphical oomph that mean the GB could never out perform it in real world scenarios - Kirby's Adventure being a fantastic example. Also, look at the pirate NES version of DKC, which runs on a real NES - it's quite impressive. Think of it like the the DS and the N64 - the DS could handle substantially more polygons than the N64... it just wasn't able to draw as many as the N64 on the screen.... which is also a bit like the PS2 and GC.

 

Phantom Hourglass was born entirely out of the stylus control scheme and a desire to keep it simpler for first time gamers the DS was bringing in. It went downhill from there.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Captain Falcon

[Grazza]

Phantom Hourglass was born entirely out of the stylus control scheme and a desire to keep it simpler for first time gamers the DS was bringing in. It went downhill from there.

 

True, but the DS was also an odd machine in one specific way - it was generally capable of polygon-based games, but didn't have an analogue stick. It might even be the only games machine with that particular issue.

 

Personally, I'd have said "The machine's got a d-pad, let's make a d-pad Zelda (ie. a wholly 2D one)", but there you go.

 

I hope Nintendo stops focusing on touch and motion controls because I think they're barking up the wrong tree (not totally eliminate them; just use touch for things like shop displays). As I say, I think things like autosave, Super Leaf/Super Guide and a (very carefully done) map screen/level select system could be better ways to refine games in a way that makes them more welcoming.

[Darren]

The original Metroid is a bit of a pain for me, while I respect the origins of the series, NES games are HARD! I found some parts quite frustrating. For example, there are particular rooms where you have to shoot out blocks and climb them, and unless your timing is perfect, the blocks will respawn and you will take damage and fall back down the shaft. It was unnecessary and annoying. Another was the lack of a map, I guess I am too used to having one when I play my Metroid games. When backtracking through areas I do like to know where i'm going. There were lots of dead ends in the game and I feel a map would have helped drastically.

 

While I respect the game and its challenge, it's not something I can enjoy. I think the save state feature will be a huge help when I complete the game again.

[Grazza]

When I was playing this I still didn't quite understand the difference between "Resume Game" and "Restore Points". The Resume Game feature was helpful, but Restore Points would have been even more so. Can't believe I didn't think of it! Let's say you are about to face a boss... Build up your health and missiles to maximum and create a Restore Point - that way, even if you fail, you'll be able to get back into the game very quickly. Of course, there aren't many bosses, and there are plenty of other points where you need to restore your health, but it would still be useful.

[Ville]

The restore point function is great, just what these old games need. Definitely gonna try beating this at some point.

[Darren]

The restore point function is great, just what these old games need. Definitely gonna try beating this at some point.

 

I hope you enjoy it, it's not an easy game, it will chew you up and spit you back out again! Stick with it..

[Ville]

I hope you enjoy it, it's not an easy game, it will chew you up and spit you back out again! Stick with it..

 

And beaten in one day! Good lord, finally after all these years...one piece of my childhood puzzle is now complete. So awesome.

 

I knew the game had its drawbacks, so I armed myself with an online map and a walkthrough. A really good idea...also, the 3DS' restore point was the crucial thing for enjoying this game. For example, Mother Brain was pretty hard, so without a quicksave function she would've totally turned into the nastiest bitch in the galaxy...

 

Anyway, nice game! Graphics were cool, music was good and I really liked finding new abilities and beams along the way. The health replenishing is rather shite in this game, but after obtaining the ice beam it kind of becomes a moot point since you can just freeze the enemies. That is, until you die and lose all your energy tanks... o_O

 

Still, with the quicksave function and the online guides, this game turned into a totally playable and enjoyable expedition into an old game of my childhood memories. So happy I was finally able to finish this...and it only makes me look forward into the next games I've never finished, like Zelda 1 & 2, Kid Icarus etc! I hope the WiiU eshop gets the same kind of quicksaving, because it changes the whole experience really radically. Even the most frustrating games of old suddenly become playable and even fun...and that is a huge factor for me, at least. Make it happen Nintendo, would totally boost the VC sales...