Raspberry Pi

[Marcamillian]

I don't know what people are expecting kids to write. They're not going to be making changes to an OS, deleting dll's or making network wide changes.

[Charlie]

What happens when they learn to write something to circumvent security etc?

 

At school under the Windows 2000 Professional myself and a friend found a HUGE security flaw in the network. It started off by messing about with the 'net send' command in command prompt which let us send messages to other users/computers.

 

This then went onto finding out that you could remotely log people off their computers, remotely restart and shut down the computer or network group (i.e. the entire school network).

 

We then made it easier and wrote a program in Visual Basic that let us do it all through a GUI.

 

So yeah, you shouldn't let people mess with a network. We only ever used it responsibly (ok, we restarted our friends computers a few times and lol'd at their confused faces) and didn't tell anyone else about it but we didn't shut down the whole server or anything which we could've done.

 

At the end of 6th year we gave the source code and GUI to the head of IT who shut down the loophole.

[Marcamillian]

In that case I agree wholeheartedly then, kids shouldn't be let near computers ever

[Jamba]

I'm baffled at what all the fuss is about.

 

As Cube said... I don't see why this is any more beneficial to a kid learning to program on a PC, other than a big marketing push. (other countries where personal computers are less standard is another issue)

 

Kids are 1000's of times more likely to screw a computer downloading stuff from the internet than programming.

 

After investing millions in computers... why should schools shell out more hardware (though admittedly low price) for a more limited device. In addition to this... monitors still need to be bought to plug the thing into.

 

One argument I've heard is giving kids a persistent workspace they can take home, but I don't know if schools should risk them going walkabout at home.

 

The most convincing argument is that the simpler architecture makes it easier to do low-level stuff with the hardware.

 

In terms of encouraging kids to program I'd think it'd be far more beneficial to push simpler development stuff on consoles. The spectrum was a development tool not just a media playback device. Kids are used to consoles, they associate them with fun. Get a development push on them and we'll be sorted for young programmers.

 

I think your looking at the situation from an old fashioned approach to education. In the words of a very well known (to the teaching crowd) video: "we are teaching our kids for jobs that don't even exist yet".

 

So what is the point? Teaching kids transposable skills that helps them use their brain in a general sense. I used to teach science in secondary school in London and I can tell you that NONE of my kids are ever going to use their knowledge of the limestone cycle, atomic shell structure or displacement reactions. But what they will use is the problem solving, logic, deduction and analysis that they crafted by learning it.

 

In my view programming is far more relevant to modern culture, genuinely helpful for our younger kids. It gives them something to connect with and understand the kit they frequently use.

 

And as far as the applications of Pi, I have had more conversations then I can count with colleagues and clients about ideas that they genuinely want to pursue.

 

What if I said in 3 years you won't have a PC anymore. You'll just have a Raspberry Pi box that you plug into a monitor with a kinnet camera, linked to a service like the one OnLive is doing right now which allows you run a virtual PC on the cloud, and THATS how computing is done.

[Rummy]

I don't know what people are expecting kids to write. They're not going to be making changes to an OS, deleting dll's or making network wide changes.

 

They're hopefully not, no, but I don't know what kind of permissions stuff will need to run if they're learning to program on regular PCs, but I just imagine it'd need non-restricted rights, because it'd probably look at is as ABLE to execute malicious code, even if they won't? I genuinely don't even know lol, how sad is that.

[Marcamillian]

I wasn't saying "what's the point in teaching kids to program", I was saying "what's the point of Raspberry Pi".

 

I agree programming is amazing for developing a structured approach to problem solving that will help in all of a persons life.

 

Schools have had the facilities to teach programming for years, just not the curriculum. Logo on an Acorn in year 7 was something but then it was 4 years of building the same databases and spreadsheets.

 

It just seems like they're saying their failure to teach computing more widely was due to not having this "magic device". Hell they could have just bought a butt tonne of ZX Spectrum's and taught kids BASIC. Arduino boards have been around for years.

 

Call me a cynic but if I was a hardware manufacturer I'd sure be spending my time convincing the government that it would be better to buy my device rather than just install an IDE on the computers they already have.

[Supergrunch]

Still no Pi for me yet, but then I knew I was in the second batch - I'm expecting mine sometime in May.

So what is the point? Teaching kids transposable skills that helps them use their brain in a general sense. I used to teach science in secondary school in London and I can tell you that NONE of my kids are ever going to use their knowledge of the limestone cycle, atomic shell structure or displacement reactions. But what they will use is the problem solving, logic, deduction and analysis that they crafted by learning it.

Aw, I hope they do use that knowledge, even though a lot of the models are simplifications and/or outdated. I use stuff I learnt at school every day. But yeah, the general skills are of course more important.

 

As for the continued discussion about how much point there is in Raspberry Pis, I've mostly said my thing below, but I think people are consistently underestimating how much access there is to computers both in schools and in the home for the average child.

[Burny]

There are tons of benefits to be had teaching children to program on very basic machines like these in contrast to anything like a modern PC or a console. If this takes off or ends up as a toy for enthusiasts is another matter. Precondition would be to have teachers actually educated in programming of course, which I suppose is the real issue.

 

For one thing, you don't see "the strings" on modern (Windows-)PCs any more. There is a myriad of things going on at any time. Such a basic concept as creating a program that will be executed as a process and uses the standard-IO (console) is nowadays buried under a mountain of GUI applications that make people click buttons. If children aren't actively looking to learn this nowadays - and there is little reason for them to do so unless they plan to become computer scientists anyway - they will never learn about it.

 

Consoles probably are a far worse option to start teaching children programming. For one thing, they're pretty much elaborate toys instead of general purpose PCs. And as they are so elaborate, they're also expensive.

 

Things like the Rasberry Pie however are within the price realm of a school book and unlike consoles can be used as actual general purpose PCs. That also solves the problem who's supposed to buy these things: Not the schools, but the parents. Schools aren't afraid to ask parents to buy schoolbooks for hundreds of Euros every year, many of which are more expensive than a Rasberry Pie would be. They could very well ask parents to equip their children with such a mini PC for computer science classes.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Burny

[Emasher]

Precondition would be to have teachers actually educated in programming of course, which I suppose is the real issue.

 

You only really need a few teachers per school (the actual number dependent on the number of students) that are qualified to teach programming. Just like most schools only have a few physical education or music teachers. I mean, you're going to need a special room dedicated to this anyway (due to the monitors, keyboards and mice required), so its not like different classes will be able to do it at the same time anyway. High schools (or whatever they're called in whatever country whoever reads this is from) already tend to employ one or two teachers capable of teaching programming for computer science classes, so I don't see why elementary/primary schools can't do the same.

 

I don't really see any reason why you can't learn to program within a modern operating system though (if you can call Windows that). There are tons of tools out there like Greenfoot, for instance, that would be great for teaching children how to program. And use a real language as well, unlike Alice or the MIT equivalent that they've been talking about. If you really want a UNIX like environment you can always use Cygwin.

[Jamba]

You only really need a few teachers per school (the actual number dependent on the number of students) that are qualified to teach programming. Just like most schools only have a few physical education or music teachers. I mean, you're going to need a special room dedicated to this anyway (due to the monitors, keyboards and mice required), so its not like different classes will be able to do it at the same time anyway. High schools (or whatever they're called in whatever country whoever reads this is from) already tend to employ one or two teachers capable of teaching programming for computer science classes, so I don't see why elementary/primary schools can't do the same.

 

I don't really see any reason why you can't learn to program within a modern operating system though (if you can call Windows that). There are tons of tools out there like Greenfoot, for instance, that would be great for teaching children how to program. And use a real language as well, unlike Alice or the MIT equivalent that they've been talking about. If you really want a UNIX like environment you can always use Cygwin.

 

I think there is an inherent philosophical difference with teaching someone to code in Windows. Using Linux exposes kids to an OS that is open and non-profiteering such as Windows, potentially allowing them to become part of a cooperative community.

 

Also don't forget that the device needs to be able to run the OS. Windows is too fat.

 

I meet so many people who are fixated on sticking with Windows systems just because they have had less exposure to other systems. Doesn't get much better than the Linux for routing and networking, that's for sure :-)

Edited April 21, 2012 by Jamba

[Supergrunch]

I don't really see any reason why you can't learn to program within a modern operating system though (if you can call Windows that). There are tons of tools out there like Greenfoot, for instance, that would be great for teaching children how to program. And use a real language as well, unlike Alice or the MIT equivalent that they've been talking about. If you really want a UNIX like environment you can always use Cygwin.

Debian and Fedora etc. aren't modern? And they're pushing that MIT thing for young kids, but it also supports Python, C, and Perl (and BASIC, lol). And, well, anything you care to put on it. But it's an ARM processor, so it's not compatible with Windows.

[Emasher]

Sorry, I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not suggesting running Windows on a Raspberry Pi, that would be ridiculous. I thought you meant kids should be learning to program in an OS that doesn't have the bloat that many modern operating systems have. Of course the OSs that you listed are modern, and for many things are much better than Windows. The only reason I'm bringing up Windows at all is because that's what most schools already have running. Even with Raspberry Pi, the schools do need to make a bit of an investment, as you need monitors keyboards and mice to use the devices. Unfortunately schools don't like students (or teachers for that matter) messing with the hardware to the extent that they wouldn't be able to just unplug those things temporarily in existing computer labs. There are a lot of uses for the Raspberry Pi though. For instance, for students to use at home who might not be able to use their family computer for whatever reason. It's just, in schools, it would be a lot easier to use existing infrastructure. If you want to teach them to program in a UNIX like environment, something like Cygwin could be utilized. I mean, in an ideal world, all schools would have multiple computer labs with various OSs installed on each machine and all sorts of stuff like that, but this isn't an ideal world.

[Jamba]

Sorry, I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not suggesting running Windows on a Raspberry Pi, that would be ridiculous. I thought you meant kids should be learning to program in an OS that doesn't have the bloat that many modern operating systems have. Of course the OSs that you listed are modern, and for many things are much better than Windows. The only reason I'm bringing up Windows at all is because that's what most schools already have running. Even with Raspberry Pi, the schools do need to make a bit of an investment, as you need monitors keyboards and mice to use the devices. Unfortunately schools don't like students (or teachers for that matter) messing with the hardware to the extent that they wouldn't be able to just unplug those things temporarily in existing computer labs. There are a lot of uses for the Raspberry Pi though. For instance, for students to use at home who might not be able to use their family computer for whatever reason. It's just, in schools, it would be a lot easier to use existing infrastructure. If you want to teach them to program in a UNIX like environment, something like Cygwin could be utilized. I mean, in an ideal world, all schools would have multiple computer labs with various OSs installed on each machine and all sorts of stuff like that, but this isn't an ideal world.

 

From what people have told me, it's like working on a kit car. You have to get some understanding of what's going on to work on it. I think with Windows (from what you're suggesting) you would just build the application on top of the OS which doesn't seem to be what the Pi guys want to do.

 

Although your point is totally valid. I don't fully understand quite HOW they are going to approach it in schools yet although the organisation must have some idea how they want to go about it.

[Emasher]

There's really no difference in learning to program in Windows or any other OS. I mean, it's certainly a much better experience doing it in a UNIX like environment, but for learning actual programming concepts, it doesn't matter.

[Burny]

High schools (or whatever they're called in whatever country whoever reads this is from) already tend to employ one or two teachers capable of teaching programming for computer science classes, so I don't see why elementary/primary schools can't do the same.

 

Those few teachers are the problem (or can be). None of the three we had at out school were any good at kindling enthusiasm for programming or even were programmers themselves. They were just some physics and maths teachers, who had gone through some kind of advanced training in order to teach computer science. The subject itself was also only taught to 17-19yr-olds (10th to 13th grade). Once you also start to teach the subject to pupils of lower grades, you need more teachers and facilities as those "one or two" will just not do any more. The teachers themselves will also need to be better educated, as pupils taking the subject for longer can't just stick to writing the simplest of programs. Not to mention that the subject and its teachers actually needed to be far better organized in our case.

 

There's really no difference in learning to program in Windows or any other OS. I mean, it's certainly a much better experience doing it in a UNIX like environment, but for learning actual programming concepts, it doesn't matter.

 

As long as it's about understanding and designing algorithms, sure, it doesn't really matter how bloated the OS is and how much all the installed educational software bogs it down. But in that case, you'd probably go for Java or something similarly system-independent as educational language.

 

That might be a valid alternative to introducing these mini-PCs. But the people behind the Rasberry Pie seem to link the problems they're experiencing directly to the fact, that children today are very unlikely to come into contact with systems they have to program in some way and more likely to have access to systems and toys, that offer anything they want out of the box. At least their homepage makes it sound that way:

 

The idea behind a tiny and cheap computer for kids came in 2006, when Eben Upton and his colleagues at the University of Cambridge’s Computer Laboratory, including Rob Mullins, Jack Lang and Alan Mycroft, became concerned about the year-on-year decline in the numbers and skills levels of the A Level students applying to read Computer Science in each academic year. From a situation in the 1990s where most of the kids applying were coming to interview as experienced hobbyist programmers, the landscape in the 2000s was very different; a typical applicant might only have done a little web design.

 

Something had changed the way kids were interacting with computers. A number of problems were identified: the colonisation of the ICT curriculum with lessons on using Word and Excel, or writing webpages; the end of the dot-com boom; and the rise of the home PC and games console to replace the Amigas, BBC Micros, Spectrum ZX and Commodore 64 machines that people of an earlier generation learned to program on.

[Emasher]

I guess you're probably right. I was lucky enough to have a really good computer science teacher in high school. Its obviously not the same everywhere.

 

Java is probably the way to go for something like that. Especially if you want the students to be able to go home and program, regardless of what OS they use at home. I don't think you necessarily need to put them in an environment where they're forced to program though. Most kids play video games these days, and learning to program simple games isn't a bad way to learn to program. That's why I suggested something like greenfoot, as its Java, and its really easy to make simple games with it.

[Supergrunch]

So mine is getting dispatched in the week starting 21st May apparently.

[Jamba]

So mine is getting dispatched in the week starting 21st May apparently.

 

Exciting!

 

I've just read a review by Digital Foundry over on Eurogamer. It's a good review but they totally miss the point of the device which is surprising for them.

 

It's here.

 

The most hilarious thing is how many people in the comments are saying:

"God someone needs to get [insert software/system] running on this thing.... only then will I buy it".

 

FFS people, buy it and get the software working yourself! It's developed and made by a charity to help schmucks like you get programming and developing.

[Supergrunch]

So I got mine today! I imaged a 32gb sd card with the recommended Debian image, and had a bit of fun fiddling around with things, but haven't really done all that much yet, will have to try some more when I get a free moment. It's cool though, and smaller and lighter than I was expecting! I'll post some pictures later.

[Jamba]

So I got mine today! I imaged a 32gb sd card with the recommended Debian image, and had a bit of fun fiddling around with things, but haven't really done all that much yet, will have to try some more when I get a free moment. It's cool though, and smaller and lighter than I was expecting! I'll post some pictures later.

 

Hey SuperG, how are you getting along with this?

[Supergrunch]

Well, I started learning how to use linux shell commands from here, and they're very cool.

[Twozzok]

Is it that the Rasperry Pi is to programmers as the Arduino is to electronic engineers?

[Jamba]

Is it that the Rasperry Pi is to programmers as the Arduino is to electronic engineers?

 

From what little I know about the Arduino, yes to an extent. This is more geared at education but it is a very capable little device and for £22. It's a fantastic way of introducing people to Linux and as that's what most the majority of servers, almost all routers and so on are using it's pretty important if you want to work in IT!

 

I've got mine today! Am very excited :-)

 

[Twozzok]

It's a lot smaller then I thought, It's definitely a similiar size as the arduino.

[Rummy]

How are folks getting on with this? My brother's asked me about it, could it be a viable solution/platform for making some sort of automation system for his house(no idea in what sense). Anyone know how viable that could be, is it easy to support various input/output?